Any figure that ends its turn in a lava space is immediately defeated.

A players end turn is defined as best as I can tell as this

Flip Activation Card: After a hero player has finished performing his actions, that hero player flips his Activation card facedown to indicate that his turn is over. After the player flips his A

So If I force a hero to move on the overlord turn into Lava they only take damage and do not die Correct? IE: Throw, Whisper, Dark Charm...

Just want to make sure that is correct.

You are correct.

My question regards different case of being forced: if a hero stands up, and the closest empty space is lava, does it count as lava being "entered" by that hero, or that is just placing, so that hero is not going to suffer damage?

Standing up is not entering a space, since the hero was previously off the map, not coming from another space.

If a hero gets defeated by ending his turn in lava, he is allowed to put his hero token in the closest non-lava space. If he stands up in a lava space, though, he will be defeated since his turn immediately ends after standup. Because of the first sentence, though, this should not happen repeatedly- just once.

Are you saying that all spaces around a hero token are occupied except a lava space? Unfortunately, he would be knocked out right affer standup. If he were revived, he would have a chance to move (would not suffer damage from that first space). Remember, the hero has the option to NOT stand up and simply skip his turn.

Well, actually, he was being revived, but since technically it is same as standing (in terms of entering space) I did not say so.

Yes, all spaces but one were either walls, or occupied. But my remark (correct as it seems) about a hero not being damaged by lava when revived into in, was very upsetting for an OL, and met a long argument :-D

The OL can take comfort in the fact that it works both ways- placing reinforcements in lava spaces does not damage them.

I'm wondering if cards like Dark Charm and Dark Host are an exception to this? You are taking a turn with a hero, using actions ("you may perform a move or attack action with that hero as if he were one of your monsters this turn"), as opposed to forcing the hero to move. I figure with Dark Charm, you are convincing the hero that he's just going for a soak in the tub at his favorite tavern, so he hops in quite happily thinking the water a little warmer than usual, whereas being thrown or shoved while aware of the hazard would be met with some resistance and more likelihood of escape.

During Dark Charm/Dark Host effects, the hero is performing a move action whilst being treated as a monster. He is very definitely entering spaces during that move action, and would absolutely suffer damage. At the end of the move action he would not be defeated, however, because the hero is not ending his turn in the lava space.

Neither Dark Charm nor Dark Host are in any way an "activation" (which is why you can't "Frenzy" or "Dash" a Dark Charmed hero - they're not activating) they are merely isolated actions. For these OL cards, there is not even a beginning or end of monster's turn in the OL sense where a monster's activation constitutes it's turn (such as for conditions.)

It's the same case with "Blood Rage." You don't activate the monster a second time, you just perform 2 attacks with it, and then it dies.

If the OL Dark Hosted a hero into lava and then the hero doesn't get out of the lava by the end of his next turn, he would in fact be defeated.

While I know that is the rules, personally I think the figure should be defeated when any figure ends it's turn.

While I know that is the rules, personally I think the figure should be defeated when any figure ends it's turn.

I apologize for being so picky about words, but do you mean "ends its movement?" My point about Dark Charm is that no turn ends there.

While I know that is the rules, personally I think the figure should be defeated when any figure ends it's turn.

Feel free to houserule it anyway you like if the other people playing agree to it, but I wouldn't recommend it. It opens some pretty brutal options for some of what are already the strongest abilities or items in the game to cause instant deaths.

Perhaps I should say "ends it's activation?" In anycase, think of it this way. Say you use an Ettin's throw ability. And he succeeds and moves a hero into a lava space. Technically in the rules, the hero wouldn't be defeated, but it doesn't really make much sense as to why that would be. The Hero ended up in lava... he should be defeated. So what I'm saying is that on the point the Ettin ends it's activation (Move,Action) that is when the hero should be defeated. I would say it would go for everything at that point. Whenever something ends it's "turn" or activation, you take in the effects of the spaces they are standing on at that point and apply the effect.

Yes so maybe "ends it's action" might be a better choice of words.

The problem with making it "at the end of anyone's turn" is that it opens a worse can of worms. Remember that the heroes go first, so they'd get plenty of time to turn it around on the OL.

Think of this little hero trick, if you change the rules this way. A Geomancer with gravity spike places one of hsis tone within a lava spot then chooses a monster group and spends his stamina, moves the entire group 2 closer to his stone, into the lava. Every monster that ends it's move adjacent to the stone takes damage, every monster that enters lava takes damage, every monster that is still on the lava at the end of the geomancer's turn dies.

Thematically, think of all the various "turns" happening more or less simultaneously, until the start of a new round. So if you are thrown in lava, you don't die until you've actually tried to escape, but you can't try to escape until it's your turn. The way you suggested, anyone being involuntarily moved into lava would die, as they cannot escape.

That would have made a quick end to the Star Wars saga...

Well, the hero has neither end its activation, nor its turn in lava because :

1) The hero never activate to perform this action

2) It was not the hero's turn

In a realistic point of view, you can argue that a hero would be defeated if he ends its turn in lava because of the elapsed time between the end of its turn and the start of its next turn. Following this line of thought, if a hero ends a "forced" move action in lava, the elapsed time would be similar hence the hero should be defeated.

Unfortunately, it is a game and the mechanics have been balance differently. I don't recommend you to change this rule. It will open an exploitable door wide open (especially for the OL) and could spoil the game enjoyment for everybody.

On a side note, you could also argue that it does not make sense that a hero defeated in lava is able to rise on the following turn (as if he did not passed out Inside a pool of lava...) but that game is designed this way

Well then perhaps it needs some better clarification then. Perhaps it should be errata that says "Whenever a figure is forcefully moved into a space, he suffers any effect of the given space immediately."

It's quite intentional that forcing a hero or monster to move into lava is not instant defeat, because that would break the game mechanics quite heavily.

If you absolutely must use the force into lava strategy, just mix in immobilizing so they can't leave on their turn.

If a figure is defeated, he's moved into the closest available space. You can't immobilize something that's already defeated. Also look at the Pit Trap space. That effect actually occurs when a figure is moved into a Pit. Same goes for lava, moving into it no matter when forces 1 Heart. So's like I said, kinda doesn't make sense that when a figure ends moving and is on a Lava Space, it's not defeated. If the heroes wanted to use this tactic as a strategy, I don't see how that is not an even playing field if the OL could do the same.

Anyway, we know what the official rules are. What I'm talking about is purely up to how the players want to play the game.

If you absolutely must use the force into lava strategy, just mix in immobilizing so they can't leave on their turn.

If they can cure the condition before this hero has to take his turn, then it's avoidable.

If you absolutely must use the force into lava strategy, just mix in immobilizing so they can't leave on their turn.

If they can cure the condition before this hero has to take his turn, then it's avoidable.

Or if they have a "move up to your speed" or "move X spaces" ability.

However, that's still (in my mind) much preferable to the alternative, which is that an ettin's "Throw" can knock down a full health hero. That means if you have a mage (let's say might 2 or 1) and you leave him within 3 spaces of lava and an ettin, he has an 80-90% chance (failing his might roll) of dying. Or Dark Charm could kill with a willpower test. Or a cursed hero could be "Bewitched" by a master goblin witcher and killed (no test involved.) That's ridiculous.

It would if it were not an even playing field. You could have Jain fire an arrow with Trueshot for instance. Then surge it fir it's ability to move the target one space. You could technically call that a "knockback" ability. So you hit a Zombie with it for instance. Force of the arrow makes the Zombie fall into the lava. Instant defeat. Seems more realistic to me.

What about Astarras heroic feat? She could wipe out an entire room by simply moving them into the lava. Dying without the chance to do anything is neither fun nor fair.

What about Astarras heroic feat? She could wipe out an entire room by simply moving them into the lava. Dying without the chance to do anything is neither fun nor fair.

Exactly. Omnislash, it's not that killing a monster by knocking it back into the lava isn't more realistic, or even that it would alter the balance between heroes and the Overlord- though I think it would- it's that it would change the power of forced movement abilities with respect to every other type of ability in the game (also, I can think of abilities that can loophole that change pretty easily, like Alric's "Overpower" - he could walk through lava for one damage, then switch places with a hero and kill him.)

It's similar to the argument people have made about changing Line of Sight rules to make it harder to see figures- sure, you might make ranged combat a bit more realistic- but you'll also decrease the utility of every ranged weapon in the game, and increase the utility of every melee weapon in the process, because these weapons and abilities were designed with the game's mechanics in mind . By altering a key mechanic (terrain, line of sight) you're upsetting the balance across the board. Is the satisfaction of knocking a zombie into lava really worth that?

FFG recently released Imperial Assault- and some of its mechanics (notably line of sight) are different than those of Descent. However, all of the characters, gear and abilities were designed with those rules in mind, which provides an opportunity for the game designers to balance things from the start- a much better alternative than trying to make a change to an already existing system which necessitates a multitude of other changes just to minimize its impact.

This may not be what you're looking for- but you could write a custom quest and in the special rules, specify these changes for that map. For example, there's a quest in Trollfens (Food for Worms) where every time a hero enters a water space, he has to test might or awareness, and if he fails, he is Immobilized ( the ground is sinking mud.) So, perhaps a quest takes place in a volcano, and the lava is particularly hot- or it's the Black Realm, and the Hazard spaces are magical somehow.

*imagines Alric grabbing Grisban by the scruff of his neck and dwarf tossing him into lava*

I don't really think there is a dispute over the official ruling of the terrain. I get that it only happens when a figure ends the turn on the space.

Also bare in mind, that the whole base of a large monster has to be in lava terrain in order for it to be defeated. So essentially ( in the basic game) those monster are immune to becoming defeated that way anyway.

I agree that if it was played the way that I suggested, some pretty mean stuff could happen to either side. Barring that in mind, good tactics from both sides could prevent that from happening.