The problem with all fixes it inherently nerfs all other ships.

I don't see it, unless you view one ship moving up in power as it instead staying put and all the other ships moving down in power. And even if you do, it's exactly the same effect. Power is relative. X-wing moves up one unit or everything else moves down one unit, all that happens is the gap closes by one unit.

Power in this game is all relative. So yes, that is exactly what happens.

X-Wings were IMO the best ship in the game, but then came B-wings, then they made B-wings better. Making B-wings better makes people more likely to take them. If they are more likely to take them then they are less likely to take all other ships.

I will admit that how often a ship is taken isn't exactly the same thing to how good it is, but it is an indirect measure of how good it is.

but how about a new maneuver?

How do you put out a new maneuver without replacing the dial of every X-Wing?

Sorry, I meant action.

then they made B-wings better.

They made them more diverse. B-wing/E2 doesn't make it better, just more versatile. The power it gets from adding crew is offset by the additional cost.

X-wings aren't about fancy maneuvers though. They're about combining good survivability with good firepower, and then using teamwork and superior piloting skills.

X-wing moves up one unit or everything else moves down one unit, all that happens is the gap closes by one unit.

I agree.

Now lets say they increased the X-Wing by 3 units, then yes that could be seen as a nerf to other ships, but no one is talking about that large of an increase.

Or if you could say that the X-Wing is already mostly even with other ships, say a 4.5 while most others are a 5, then yes the X-Wing would be OP'ed...

But the truth is, the X-Wing is a bit underpowered right now, because so many ships that have come out after have the advantage of refined development process and experience. So a small boost in the X-Wings ability, like a point or 2 wouldn't make other ships worse, just put the X-Wing on par.

The problem with all fixes it inherently nerfs all other ships.

I don't see it, unless you view one ship moving up in power as it instead staying put and all the other ships moving down in power. And even if you do, it's exactly the same effect. Power is relative. X-wing moves up one unit or everything else moves down one unit, all that happens is the gap closes by one unit.

Power in this game is all relative. So yes, that is exactly what happens.

X-Wings were IMO the best ship in the game, but then came B-wings, then they made B-wings better. Making B-wings better makes people more likely to take them. If they are more likely to take them then they are less likely to take all other ships.

I will admit that how often a ship is taken isn't exactly the same thing to how good it is, but it is an indirect measure of how good it is.

Yes, power is relative.

Currently, the X-wing is not as powerful as a host of other options. By buffing it, it will be similarly powerful relative to that same host of other options.

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

It's probably been suggested already, but what about something like this for a Rogue Squadron title?

"At the start of the combat phase, if another friendly X-Wing is within range 1, you may perform a free evade action."

It's maybe a little boring, but it's a solid, reliable ability that expresses the idea that X-Wings work best when covering each other.

It's probably been suggested already, but what about something like this for a Rogue Squadron title?

"At the start of the combat phase, if another friendly X-Wing is within range 1, you may perform a free evade action."

It's maybe a little boring, but it's a solid, reliable ability that expresses the idea that X-Wings work best when covering each other.

You have to be careful with something like that because Biggs exists.

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

It also benefits the named pilots more than the generics...and I thought if was the generics everyone wanted "fixed."

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

It also benefits the named pilots more than the generics...and I thought if was the generics everyone wanted "fixed."

I"m not entirely certain about that

The higher PS you go, the less likely that ignoring the PS order of shooting actually influences the game. The named pilot benefiting unduly from this is Wedge, because Wedge is ******* scary.

Anyway, the upgrade is awesome but beyond broken. Imagine shooting at Whisper before he moves, or Soontir before he can take actions/arc-dodge...

The B-Wing does steal the thunder of the X-Wing. Remove the B-Wing from the game and suddenly you would see more Rookie Pilots. It does everything a X-Wing can do, only better and for only one more point. I maneuver better with Barrel Roll, it shoot as strong, it is more survivable. The B-Wing is just a better deal. It's no wonders that except for filler ships like the Z and Tie Fighter, the B-Wing is the only ship that we see regularily on the table without any upgrades and is still very competitive, it is a bargain ship.

Imo, no

You remove B-wings from the game and you'll see more Y-wings. They're the next most flexible and reliable ship, now that Wave 6 has given then a slew of interesting new options.

The B-wing isn't stealing anyone's thunder. It's a great design and a balanced ship in this game. The Y-wing, as far as I can tell, has caught up with the release of Most Wanted. The X-wing is just lagging behind.

The Y-Wing new title is certainly nice, but there is enough difference between the X and Y to justify taking one over the other. The X-Wing is more maneuvrable and better at long range than a BTL Ion Y-Wing, it's also 2 points cheaper, which would allow you to take the stress droid for the same price.

Again, the difference is that the Y-Wing have its own purpose. It is worth every points you're paying for it, but it still doesn't dogfight like an X-Wing or B-Wing can.

Personally, now that the title is out, I see no reason to take a generic X-wing over a generic Y-wing.

Before, the generic Y filled a very specific control-orientated role (which it still does very well, mind). Now, it can also fill the role of tanky joust-superiority fighter (in that you can't joust with it because your ass is ionized ) because the title lets it overcome the damage limitation on the ion cannon. It can also provide positioning control through use of the auto-blaster turret, giving you a range 1 bubble where 3 agility fears to thread.

What role does the generic X-wing fill? It's not a good dog-fighter because the stats a very inefficient. It's not a good control ship unless you run R3-A2, which is far superior on certainly named pilots. It's not mobile enough to be a good blocker. It's not an arc dodger. It's kind of all around crappy. Without certain named pilot abilities giving their X-wings a new lease on life, it just doesn't really do anything very well. That's not really jack of all trades, that's just...bleh.

The B-wing might have seemed to dethrone the X-wing, but really the base stats of the ship just aren't up to snuff with the current offerings and its limited action bar/upgrade slots don't help it overcome that deficiency. I know I'm sounding like a broken record now, but honestly I would never take rookie pilots even if I couldn't take blue squadrons or gold squadrons. Hell, I'd sooner take Bandits.

Agree to disagree then.

Clearly you see no value in the current X-Wing so there isn't much point arguing. I never would have guessed that someone someday would consider the Y-Wing a joust superiority fighter... Just be sure to stay in range 1-2, because you'll soon find out that 2 attack dice and 1 agility at range 3 isn't that superior and that its maneuver dial doesn't offer much options.

Do you remember when the transport was spoiled how everyone claimed that the X-Wing was going to be too good? How things can change. It is not a deficient ship. But those threads about fixing a ship always finish this way, it starts with the ship maybe needing a little boost and end up being the worst thing of the game.

It's probably been suggested already, but what about something like this for a Rogue Squadron title?

"At the start of the combat phase, if another friendly X-Wing is within range 1, you may perform a free evade action."

It's maybe a little boring, but it's a solid, reliable ability that expresses the idea that X-Wings work best when covering each other.

You have to be careful with something like that because Biggs exists.

So does Jan crew. That hasn't broken Biggs yet.

Agree to disagree then.

Clearly you see no value in the current X-Wing so there isn't much point arguing. I never would have guessed that someone someday would consider the Y-Wing a joust superiority fighter... Just be sure to stay in range 1-2, because you'll soon find out that 2 attack dice and 1 agility at range 3 isn't that superior and that its maneuver dial doesn't offer much options.

Do you remember when the transport was spoiled how everyone claimed that the X-Wing was going to be too good? How things can change. It is not a deficient ship. But those threads about fixing a ship always finish this way, it starts with the ship maybe needing a little boost and end up being the worst thing of the game.

I wasn't on the forums when people claimed that the Transport was going to make the X-wing too good, but I do believe it's the only thing keeping it competitive (R3-A2 and Tarn Mison, specifically, though I also think R4-D6 is huge if your meta's swarming with high attack or highly modified attack elite ships). Hell, R3-A2 Luke carried me through to the Store Championship plaque, stepping over the battered corpses of Dash Rendar, Whisper, and IG-88 to do so.

The X-wing isn't the worst thing in the game (that's still the Tie Advance until the Raider hits), but it's also kind of homeless. It doesn't really fit anywhere, and the Range 3 "advantage" is not something it can reliably take advantage of when ships such as the Phantom or Aggressor will obliterate it with very little damage in return. The Y-wing has thankfully developed several niches regardless of lacking a white 3-turn (unless you're scum and then it's a green), and I'm hoping the X-wing gets similar treatment too.

It's probably been suggested already, but what about something like this for a Rogue Squadron title?

"At the start of the combat phase, if another friendly X-Wing is within range 1, you may perform a free evade action."

It's maybe a little boring, but it's a solid, reliable ability that expresses the idea that X-Wings work best when covering each other.

You have to be careful with something like that because Biggs exists.

So does Jan crew. That hasn't broken Biggs yet.

There's a bit of a difference between Jan crew giving a single ship that uses the focus action or gains a token(adding a third ship into the mix) an evade action, versus every X-wing getting an evade action for free in addition to whatever else they're doing. Suddenly you can have Biggs Focusing, getting the free evade at the start of combat and EI'ing into R2-F2 to turn into a essentially a 5 shield/hull PTL Interceptor that you have to shoot at instead of whoever he's bodyguarding.

That's an extreme case of course but it could potentially be abusable, especially with him. Manage to force your opponent to split fire? Ooof.

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

That's really powerful, especially on low PS pilots. I'd guess that would have to be at least an 8 point upgrade.

Red Squad with R2-D6 and Opportunist will be the bane of almost any ship that relies on actions and arc dodging.

Wedge with Outmaneuver puts holes in Whispers that don't take initiative, and maybe even ones that do.

Craken with Decoy lets one of your X-Wings shoot twice.

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

That's really powerful, especially on low PS pilots. I'd guess that would have to be at least an 8 point upgrade.

Red Squad with R2-D6 and Opportunist will be the bane of almost any ship that relies on actions and arc dodging.

Wedge with Outmaneuver puts holes in Whispers that don't take initiative, and maybe even ones that do.

Craken with Decoy lets one of your X-Wings shoot twice.

I dont see the issue. Thematically the rogues did stuff like this all the time.

Im surprised though with all these "fixes" no one inluded the darklighter spin. Title or mod: X-wing only Action: Perform a barrel roll action, immediately perform a primary weapon attack. You may not attack again this round.

That's really powerful, especially on low PS pilots. I'd guess that would have to be at least an 8 point upgrade.

Red Squad with R2-D6 and Opportunist will be the bane of almost any ship that relies on actions and arc dodging.

Wedge with Outmaneuver puts holes in Whispers that don't take initiative, and maybe even ones that do.

Craken with Decoy lets one of your X-Wings shoot twice.

I dont see the issue. Thematically the rogues did stuff like this all the time.

Step 1: target-lock whisper with rookies. If one rookie dies, who cares.

Step 2: Darklighter a rookie pilot into range and shoot the action-less/token-less Whisper

Replace Whisper for other action-dependent pilots (such as Tie Interceptors in general) and you can see how silly overpowered it would be

Since it takes place immediately after the roll, your ps 2 rookies could fire on squishy ships before they've moved and before they've taken actions. You'd have to, at least, double the target's agility before it even begins to be sane (Though it'd still be pretty broken).

Best I could imagine is a 29 point Rogue squadron character with that as his ability (including the ability to barrel-roll as a free action) and "you cannot attack this round or the next" ala Corran and he'd probably still be wildly broken (imagine R3-A2 on top of that, poor phantoms would die overnight!)

Not that the ability isn't awesomely creative, it'd just be impossible to balance

So is the idea of giving the X-Wing a title that let's it add an focus eyeball to a defense dies roll once per round with an ally within range three taboo or did it just get buried underneath the X-Wing 2.0 tangent that happened?

Gives you some more defense when you need it while working together as a squad without changing how the X-Wing flies while not adding any fanicy maneuvers or increasing it's offensive potential. Also it being once per round prevents Luke from abusing it being able to flip a focus on the dice to an evade.

I am pretty new to the game but I have been reading this thread and I am wonder in the opinion of the board which of the following, in a vacuum, (please forgive the pun) is the better ship? The A wing and Y are 24 points and the X and B are 25. You could throw a hull grade on the Awing in place of AT to go 2 25 points and, situationally, have 3 attack, 3 hull, 2 shields, the equivalent of an x wing. Also you could add PTL to the a wing to replace Determination to get a second action pushing it to 26 points with AT (24 without) as a nice defensive boost.

On the surface all of the other ships seem to me to be more cost effective or flexible than the X wing

I am pretty new to the game but I have been reading this thread and I am wonder in the opinion of the board which of the following, in a vacuum, (please forgive the pun) is the better ship? The A wing and Y are 24 points and the X and B are 25. You could throw a hull grade on the Awing in place of AT to go 2 25 points and, situationally, have 3 attack, 3 hull, 2 shields, the equivalent of an x wing. Also you could add PTL to the a wing to replace Determination to get a second action pushing it to 26 points with AT (24 without) as a nice defensive boost.

On the surface all of the other ships seem to me to be more cost effective or flexible than the X wing

Green Squadron Pilot (19)

Expose (4)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Determination (1)

Autothrusters (2)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Advanced Sensors (3)

Gold Squadron Pilot (18)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

R2 Astromech (1)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

The B-wing is the best all-around ship of that set, followed fairly closely by the Y-wing. The Rookie Pilot is very squishy for that price, and because its pilot skill is low, it won't get the value out of Engine Upgrade that you would with Engine Upgrade and a higher PS bid.

Green Squadron is actually a very nice ship, but Expose is almost always a bad choice. (Some upgrades are unlikely to earn back their price, which drives down the effectiveness of your list; Expose, almost uniquely, actually makes your ship worse when you use it.)

I am pretty new to the game but I have been reading this thread and I am wonder in the opinion of the board which of the following, in a vacuum, (please forgive the pun) is the better ship? The A wing and Y are 24 points and the X and B are 25. You could throw a hull grade on the Awing in place of AT to go 2 25 points and, situationally, have 3 attack, 3 hull, 2 shields, the equivalent of an x wing. Also you could add PTL to the a wing to replace Determination to get a second action pushing it to 26 points with AT (24 without) as a nice defensive boost.

On the surface all of the other ships seem to me to be more cost effective or flexible than the X wing

Green Squadron Pilot (19)

Expose (4)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Determination (1)

Autothrusters (2)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Advanced Sensors (3)

Gold Squadron Pilot (18)

Ion Cannon Turret (5)

R2 Astromech (1)

BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

The B-wing is the best all-around ship of that set, followed fairly closely by the Y-wing. The Rookie Pilot is very squishy for that price, and because its pilot skill is low, it won't get the value out of Engine Upgrade that you would with Engine Upgrade and a higher PS bid.

Green Squadron is actually a very nice ship, but Expose is almost always a bad choice. (Some upgrades are unlikely to earn back their price, which drives down the effectiveness of your list; Expose, almost uniquely, actually makes your ship worse when you use it.)

I added expose to get to 3 attack dice to mirror the X wing and I added boost to X wing reflect the consensus that the X wing needs a movement action to be competitive, and to mirror the A wing and B wing's movement actions. I was trying to put all 3 ships on a relatively level playing field in respect to attack dice and actions with similar point costs, but I understand your points.

I guess what I was trying to point put is that the generic x wing seems to be the worst of the Rebel snub fighters both in terms of point efficiency and versatility.

I guess what I was trying to point put is that the generic x wing seems to be the worst of the Rebel snub fighters both in terms of point efficiency and versatility.

Sorry! I interpreted it as a list-building question.

For the most part, you're right. It's showing its age a bit, in terms of game design, and that's definitely another reason it could use a shot in the arm.

Advanced Targeting Computers, on the other hand, are scary. They are part of an ever increasing number of ways to deal crits. They indeed may alter the meta towards ships with shields, so they can resist its effects for longer. X-wings, unfortunately, have a low number of shields relative to their cost, which means they're more susceptible to crits than near equally priced B-wings.

I think this SHOULD be the outcome of ATC, but unfortunately, I doubt it. ATC did not need to be TIE Advanced only. For 5 points, it would be more than fair on any other ship with a system, especially with the Primary Only restriction. Sure, it would make the maneuverable 3 attack ships like the B-wing and IG2000 more powerful, but it is also quite expensive and interferes with your normal action economy. AND its competing with other attractive upgrades like Adv Sensors and FCS that come in at far lower cost.

Sorry, rant over. Long story short, I was trying to agree with you, at least in part. If it wasn't restricted to the TIE Advanced, and it shouldn't be, then yes, I think it would make shielded ships far more attractive. Maybe that's why it is limited?

ATC did not need to be TIE Advanced only.

I really disagree. In the context of the TIE Advanced, Advanced Targeting Computer gives the ship a badly needed "half step" between 2 Attack and 3 Attack. It requires an action, but it's nonlinear--you only have to take the target lock once per enemy ship. Again, on the Advanced it creates a nicely balanced advantage.

But on a B-wing it's a different story. Fortunately it's mutually exclusive with Fire Control System, but it's still pretty scary on a ship with 3 Attack: once you've picked up that target lock, it adds a crit to every attack. That's far better than buying an HLC for a ship with 3 Attack; it's far better than most ordnance; it vastly outstrips every other system upgrade, including the Accuracy Corrector. It would be nearly a must-have on any ship that could take it.

I'm very happy that it's restricted to the TIE Advanced, which was so far behind that it can handle such a radical fix. There's nothing else in the game that needs it.