My friend had a good idea earlier, and I agree with it. I've tried to put it into game terms, so apologies if it's long-winded.

"Rogue Squadron Pilot

Title

Free

Receive one stress token. You may then perform a boost or barrel roll in your action phase instead of actions listed on your action bar."

So you get the boost/barrel roll people are clamoring for. It's free so you don't have to spend more points on a ship people already say is over-pointed compared to later waves.

But, it's not so OP that you can PTL off of it and you are still paying a 'cost' to do it.

Nobody would use this. Nobody uses Expert Handling as it is, a free version without shaking a Target Lock would do nothing to fix the X-Wing. The A-Wing and Tie Advanced get fixes that don't impact them nearly as much as gaining a stress token.

Nobody would use this. Nobody uses Expert Handling as it is

First off, that's not true.

Second, the reason it's not taken very often is because there are much better choices for the Elite Pilot slot then Expert Handling.

Totally crazy and unlikely, but what if the X-wings got some sort of title which would give you the ability to legally swap out your mods and EPTs at the start of a game, so that in a tournament scenario you could tailor your X-wing for your opponent? This would highlight the X-wing's strengths as a versatile, multi-role fighter, though it wouldn't change the power of it.

Nobody would use this. Nobody uses Expert Handling as it is

First off, that's not true.

Second, the reason it's not taken very often is because there are much better choices for the Elite Pilot slot then Expert Handling.

That said, just giving the X-wing access to a worse barrel roll still leaves it straggling behind the very ship that's keeping it from hitting the table.

Possible ordnance fixes in Wave 7 people have been saying we should wait to see are the same way; anything that boosts torpedoes in general actually does more to boost the B-wing, with its two Torpedo slots, than it does the X-wing.

Boost and Barrel Roll are boring fixes, and Boost at least is right out outside of some non-'added to the action bar' form, unless you want a world where Biggs has access to Autothrusters. Barrel Roll still leaves you in the same situation as the Title suggested above, you're still not as good in almost every other category as a B-wing that's only 1 point more.

Again, the B-wing isn't keeping the X-wing off the table. The B-wing is just capable of surviving in a world where 4 dice attacks/defenses are incredibly common and it is an incredibly versatile ship even without a single point of upgrades. The X-wing is not.

How about a Title card, that allows a 2/3 point deduction on torpedoes (kind of like the upcoming title card for the Tie Advanced) and has a built in Munitions Failsafe effect?

How about a Title card, that allows a 2/3 point deduction on torpedoes (kind of like the upcoming title card for the Tie Advanced) and has a built in Munitions Failsafe effect?

I like this, though hilariously it turns the X-wing into the B-wing and leaves the B-wing as the X-wing.

How about a Title card, that allows a 2/3 point deduction on torpedoes (kind of like the upcoming title card for the Tie Advanced) and has a built in Munitions Failsafe effect?

I like this, though hilariously it turns the X-wing into the B-wing and leaves the B-wing as the X-wing.

how?

the B-wing keeps its durability and flexibility and the X-wing gains neither (it gets a new kind of flexibility by being able to equip torpedoes that are priced not to suck ass)

How about a Title card, that allows a 2/3 point deduction on torpedoes (kind of like the upcoming title card for the Tie Advanced) and has a built in Munitions Failsafe effect?

I like this, though hilariously it turns the X-wing into the B-wing and leaves the B-wing as the X-wing.

how?

the B-wing keeps its durability and flexibility and the X-wing gains neither (it gets a new kind of flexibility by being able to equip torpedoes that are priced not to suck ass)

I just mean, as a girl who has played X-wing (the computer game) since the day it came out, and had all the expansions, and TIE fighter with all the expansions, and X-Wing vs TIE fighter, and X-wing Alliance, and who read every Rogue Squadron novel, I have certain expectations for how these ships actually behave. The B-wing should be less maneuverable than the X-wing. In the miniatures, it is more maneuverable. The B-wing should have a much heavier torpedo payload than the X-wing, but this modification would turn the X-wing into the torpedo carrier. In a very real sense, this change would make the X-wing more similar to the "real" B-wing and the B-wing much more similar to the "real" X-wing.

ooooooooooooohhhhh

fair's fair

Nobody would use this. Nobody uses Expert Handling as it is

First off, that's not true.

Second, the reason it's not taken very often is because there are much better choices for the Elite Pilot slot then Expert Handling.

That said, just giving the X-wing access to a worse barrel roll still leaves it straggling behind the very ship that's keeping it from hitting the table.

Possible ordnance fixes in Wave 7 people have been saying we should wait to see are the same way; anything that boosts torpedoes in general actually does more to boost the B-wing, with its two Torpedo slots, than it does the X-wing.

Boost and Barrel Roll are boring fixes, and Boost at least is right out outside of some non-'added to the action bar' form, unless you want a world where Biggs has access to Autothrusters. Barrel Roll still leaves you in the same situation as the Title suggested above, you're still not as good in almost every other category as a B-wing that's only 1 point more.

Why do you think the B-Wing is keeping the X-Wing from the table? Because it's capable of dealing with arc dodgers? Seems like what the X-Wing needs is tools to deal with arc dodgers, like boost and barrel roll.

If you are "Fixing" one of the core ships in the game have you lost control of the game as a whole?

There's no such thing as a "core" ship as in one that's the core of the game itself. All ships are or at least should be equal when normalized for points.

Yes to a degree. But I'm not sure that it is truly possible/achievable to perfectly balance all ships. Yes there should be a norm but when the average ship has 6 plus types of pilots (the X-Wing has 10) why are we shocked that one (or one type) doesn't fit perfectly.

Also I would think that some ships be situational and others for support, etc.; not everything will fit into a perfectly balanced fighter role and if we try to ride that razors edge we'll only break more things.

The B-Wing does steal the thunder of the X-Wing. Remove the B-Wing from the game and suddenly you would see more Rookie Pilots. It does everything a X-Wing can do, only better and for only one more point. I maneuver better with Barrel Roll, it shoot as strong, it is more survivable. The B-Wing is just a better deal. It's no wonders that except for filler ships like the Z and Tie Fighter, the B-Wing is the only ship that we see regularily on the table without any upgrades and is still very competitive, it is a bargain ship.

But what is done is done, the B-Wing has been made this way and that's okay. I don't think it is overpowered nor that it should not be in the game. I just wanted to point out that the X-Wing is not that overpriced, it is just overshadowed by another ship fitting the same niche. It needs to get a purpose, an identity of his own. That's why I think that the solution lies in the astromech slot, that's really what set it appart from the B-Wing. Droids like R3-A2 gives a reason to take a X-Wing. Create some more, give a discount to the X-Wing to take an astromech and that's it. You want to boost with your X-Wing? Take R7-T1. You want to take PtL? take a R2 unit to have all your 1-2 move green. The possibilities are infinite. You even help the Y-Wing and E-Wing get a little boost.

Quad link lasers 1 point. increase firepower to 5(or 4) against small based ships for this round, may not shoot next round.

Just an idea, though the B-wing was hella upgunned compared to the X so relatively doesn't work.

Well, another alternative drawn from the video games might be "Energy redirect." So, you can do something like "Remove one shield token to permanently gain +1 attack die." Or "Remove one shield to have green K-turns." Or "Roll 1 fewer attack die to have one extra shield token." Although, with R2, this may become a problem quite rapidly...

I've talked about incorporating the ELS system in the past, but in that thread I think we agreed that basically that's what target lock, focus and evade represent.

The B-Wing does steal the thunder of the X-Wing. Remove the B-Wing from the game and suddenly you would see more Rookie Pilots. It does everything a X-Wing can do, only better and for only one more point. I maneuver better with Barrel Roll, it shoot as strong, it is more survivable. The B-Wing is just a better deal. It's no wonders that except for filler ships like the Z and Tie Fighter, the B-Wing is the only ship that we see regularily on the table without any upgrades and is still very competitive, it is a bargain ship.

Imo, no

You remove B-wings from the game and you'll see more Y-wings. They're the next most flexible and reliable ship, now that Wave 6 has given then a slew of interesting new options.

The B-wing isn't stealing anyone's thunder. It's a great design and a balanced ship in this game. The Y-wing, as far as I can tell, has caught up with the release of Most Wanted. The X-wing is just lagging behind.

The B-Wing does steal the thunder of the X-Wing. Remove the B-Wing from the game and suddenly you would see more Rookie Pilots. It does everything a X-Wing can do, only better and for only one more point. I maneuver better with Barrel Roll, it shoot as strong, it is more survivable. The B-Wing is just a better deal. It's no wonders that except for filler ships like the Z and Tie Fighter, the B-Wing is the only ship that we see regularily on the table without any upgrades and is still very competitive, it is a bargain ship.

Imo, no

You remove B-wings from the game and you'll see more Y-wings. They're the next most flexibility and reliable ship, now that Wave 6 has given then a slew of interesting new options.

I agree with this. The Y-wing is really a fantastic new option. I love the thing. The ability that was given to it (the slewing the turret forward to the main firing arc) is something that the Y-wing could do in X-wing alliance, and it is something that makes a world of sense, and it's really a game-changer in the use of the Y-wing in the game. Now, I suppose, there needs to be something similar for the X-wing, but my hope is that whatever change is made, it gives the X-wing its own flavor, not making it an even heavier slugger than it already is (which is what the B-wing is supposed to represent).

I think Nightshrike nailed it for the X-wing. It's meant to be. Jake of all trades, multirole ship, that gets outfitted according to the mission or the pilot's needs. Others mentioned a point reduction for either Astromechs or Modifications, so why not do both in the same way FFG handked the Scyk?

Rogue Squadron Pilot

0 points

When equiping either an (Astromech icon), or a Modification, you may reduce it's cost by X.

I'm not sure about the wording, but it should only apply to one of these upgrades. Also, a 2 point Barrel Roll modification for small ships only (so no barrel rolling shuttles), would give you further options, and basically allow for most of the ideas we're coming up with here.

I always find these threads enjoyable. I much prefer the X over the B. The B is not as maneuverable. What the red 1 turn and 2 k turn make it more so or the BR? More like easy to read maneuvers. I could see X generics getting a small bump but all the named pilots are wonderful as well as the astro mechs. Most of my squads for rebels see more Xs then Bs. Then again, what do I know, I am mostly an imperial pilot.

Advanced Sensors makes it a bizarre yet very flexible beast to face. It flies weird, which I suppose is accurate to the B-wing.

Again, the B-wing isn't keeping the X-wing off the table. The B-wing is just capable of surviving in a world where 4 dice attacks/defenses are incredibly common and it is an incredibly versatile ship even without a single point of upgrades. The X-wing is not.

The B-wing is keeping the X-wing off the table... sort of. It pays 1 more point for a better dial (access to the 1-turn makes an enormous difference), barrel roll, and a durability bump of about 20%. Its durability is also more predictable than an X-wing's, because the dice have less of an impact on a B-wing's survivability.

I fought against this realization, internally, but I've come around to the view that the B-wing is, in terms of the value it offers against the cost it incurs, just a better fighter. Its upgrades are also typically a better value, which helps even more. (Astromechs are great, and actually got even better with the Transport and Wave 4, but the B-wing has more upgrade options and its slots have been solid from Day 1.)

As I said upthread, you can fix that by tweaking the X-wing's stat line to bring it in line with its cost, tweak its cost to bring it in line with the stats, or give it some kind of trick that increases its value by about 1-2 points.

Personally I'd like to see some new astromechs and a modification or title offering a discount (probably 2 points) on that slot. The relationship between pilots and astromechs is a strong one in the canon, and it would make me happy to see every X-wing flying with a little domed robot in the back. It also means that the fix will neatly distinguish between X-wings and B-wings.

If you are "Fixing" one of the core ships in the game have you lost control of the game as a whole?

There's no such thing as a "core" ship as in one that's the core of the game itself. All ships are or at least should be equal when normalized for points.

Yes to a degree. But I'm not sure that it is truly possible/achievable to perfectly balance all ships. Yes there should be a norm but when the average ship has 6 plus types of pilots (the X-Wing has 10) why are we shocked that one (or one type) doesn't fit perfectly.

We see Wedge, Wes, Luke, and Tarn, in about equal measure--each is about 0.5% of points spent on SC tournament cut lists. (By comparison, the Prototype Pilot is 1% of points spent, and Blue Squadron Pilot is 7.5%.) And the other X-wing pilots are gone or nearly gone from the competitive game. It's not an OMGSKYISFALLINGAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH! emergency, but I don't think we shouldn't have entire ship classes slipping out of the game.

Also I would think that some ships be situational and others for support, etc.; not everything will fit into a perfectly balanced fighter role and if we try to ride that razors edge we'll only break more things.

Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly happy to see situational or support ships. The Rebel HWK actually doesn't need much help other than maybe a new turret, and even prior to Wave 6 the Y-wing + Ion Cannon Turret was a boring but very viable addition to a Rebel List.

The problem with the X-wing (although it's not exclusive to the X-wing) is that it's not situational. It's supposed to be a well-rounded workhorse, and it's not filling that role because the B-wing is already sitting there quite comfortably.

I always find these threads enjoyable. I much prefer the X over the B. The B is not as maneuverable. What the red 1 turn and 2 k turn make it more so or the BR? More like easy to read maneuvers. I could see X generics getting a small bump but all the named pilots are wonderful as well as the astro mechs. Most of my squads for rebels see more Xs then Bs. Then again, what do I know, I am mostly an imperial pilot.

I guess it depends on what you mean by maneuverability. The X-wing can certainly cover more ground, but the B-wing has an absolutely tighter turn circle, and it can use barrel rolls to offset its turn circle. This, in conventional parlance, means it is more maneuverable.

Nobody would use this. Nobody uses Expert Handling as it is

First off, that's not true.

Second, the reason it's not taken very often is because there are much better choices for the Elite Pilot slot then Expert Handling.

That said, just giving the X-wing access to a worse barrel roll still leaves it straggling behind the very ship that's keeping it from hitting the table.

Possible ordnance fixes in Wave 7 people have been saying we should wait to see are the same way; anything that boosts torpedoes in general actually does more to boost the B-wing, with its two Torpedo slots, than it does the X-wing.

Boost and Barrel Roll are boring fixes, and Boost at least is right out outside of some non-'added to the action bar' form, unless you want a world where Biggs has access to Autothrusters. Barrel Roll still leaves you in the same situation as the Title suggested above, you're still not as good in almost every other category as a B-wing that's only 1 point more.

Why do you think the B-Wing is keeping the X-Wing from the table? Because it's capable of dealing with arc dodgers? Seems like what the X-Wing needs is tools to deal with arc dodgers, like boost and barrel roll.

Because it is? Why is BBBBZ a thing instead of XXXXZ? You could have 4 Rookie's with R2 astromechs for the same price but they'd still lose that matchup, and anything they could beat the B-wing list would likely also beat with fewer ships lost.

Give the X-wing Barrel Roll, even for free, and you're left with three fewer shields, no systems slot, no cannon shot, no ability to take crew, and less maneuverability close range in exchange for one more green die, going faster over distance, and the astromech slot. With a difference of a single point, I don't know about you but even without any points left for upgrades, the shields and close range maneuverability will have me pick the B-wing basically every time. Boost may be a slightly different story but repositioning actions still don't help out lower PS pilots as much as named guys, who people seem to agree, generally, aren't the ships that need help.

I think the key is to make the X-wing more flexible, not just in list creation (which is what most of these fixes address), but more flexible within the actual context of playing the game as well. I'm not experienced enough with the game to address this properly, but I think some of you probably can.