If most, not all, people thing the issue is really with the B-Wing then... wouldn't the be the time for FFG to break their stance and Errata the B-Wing?

We keep denying power creep but either in dials, actions or the upgrades we're getting there.

You know why FFG don't errata, right?

Besides, what would pushing the B-wing down to the X-wing achieve? You'd leave the rebels out two ships rather than one.

We keep denying power creep but either in dials, actions or the upgrades we're getting there.

You think this is power creep? I hope you never have to face real power creep.

It's not a case of power creep. It's a case of the X-wing being kinda crap from the start, and that being exacarbated by the introduction of ships more appropriately balanced to the TIE fighter. And if you want to say the TIE fighter's power creep, it's Wave 0.

If most, not all, people thing the issue is really with the B-Wing then... wouldn't the be the time for FFG to break their stance and Errata the B-Wing?

We keep denying power creep but either in dials, actions or the upgrades we're getting there.

If we're going by forum opinion than you're going to have to start far further up the totem pole than the B-wing, and in another faction entirely

B-wings did not kill the X-wing. Hell, Wave 3 had them run very well together in the same lists. Want to know what killed the X-wing?

More seriously, an errata nerf to anything is complete bull at this point. If a ship is perceived to be lacking but the competitive options are varied enough, then it is not up to the developers to take a hacksaw to their working product when they could just fix the laggards.

Only folks interested in an unbalanced 1 sided game of Empire, will think this game is REMOTELY balanced after Auto thrusters, Tie Advanced fix and even perhaps the most needed bomber fix (assuming its good).

Why do you persist in this tiresome rhetoric that not one person backs you on?

...

So please, for the sake of your reputation on this forum, please drop this silly "Imperial Homer" rhetoric of yours before people end up knowing you as the guy who mouths off at any member who complains about a Rebel ship or fails to complain about an Imperial one.

First, because Tokyogriz is a troll. Second, it's too late, Tokyogriz has already cemented his/her reputation.

So as a sometimes "Imperial Homer", I've thought the X-wing has needed a bump ever since the release of the B-wing in wave 3, but over the course of the past few wave the issue has increased. I use to try to get my "Rebel Homer" friend to use the Xs but he felt they weren't worth it for only 1 point less than a B, do to it's durability and maneuverability. Then the Z95 tok over the spot in the BBXX squads, which was one of the most common multiple X-wing list being played. Outside of Luke, Wedge & Biggs, there isn't a lot there, even with 9(?) pilots. So while it's not too uncommon to see one of the elites in a squad, you almost never see 3-4 anymore.

This is why I think a squad based ability that addresses durability or maneuverability is the best fix, because otherwise you'll still just seem Wedge or Biggs as the lone X in the list, and they'll be a little better (which they don't really need more help).

Astromech discount would do great for the x-wing, but the risk is it might overpower the y-wing. What fix might be needed needs to be subtle, worth about one point. I do agree that a squad based fix for the x-wing seems very thematic.

The x-wing from generics to uniques need a trick to either break it out if the jousting archetype, or gain more efficiency in the jousting archetype, and the upgrade needs to be cheap enough to be worth having.

Right now, it is put squarely in the joust category with no repositioning actions out of the box. In that category, however, it has a sub-par efficiency.

Let me put this in perspective: the generic rookie x-wing has 88.3% joust efficiency. This efficiency is beat by the efficiency of btl-a4 ywings, refit awings, bwings, z-95s, tie fighters, the upcoming new tie advanced, tie interceptors (yes, even generic), tie bombers (sad, isn't it), lambdas, ACD phantoms, M3-a interceptors (with or without title), and ig-2000.

Generally, they are beating only the turret ships, generic firesprays, star viper, defender, and ewing. None of these are quite the same role as the x-wing.

To be flat out beaten in their own role by the more maneuverable ships is pretty damning. I just don't see the assertion that they are fine being a position that is defensible. The question is of course, how do we fix it?

Someone pointed out a month or two back that the X-wing and Z-95 Headhunter are the only two small base ships without a reposition action or a turret.

That was me.

That is the problem with the X-Wing and I think Vorpal quite correctly pointed out that the flaw of the X-Wing is that it came out in Wave 1 when things were quite different.

As it stands right now since Wave 1 there have been Two ships that don't have some sort of reposition mechanic, or some sort of 'out of arc' firing ability The Z-95 and Lambda Shuttle. Both of those however are priced pretty low, the Z-95 being clearly filler, and the Shuttle is priced low enough to really do some stuff with upgrades on it.

In wave 1 this may of made sense as a way to set apart the Tie Fighter and Advanced. But now that we have Wave 6 and the vast majority of ships have one, it makes the X-Wing that much less attractive.

IMO the ideal fix would be something like the Advanced Fix, something that lowers the Modification cost, so you can customize it better. I'd also put in a 2 point modification that adds barrel rolls to the action bar the same way Engine Upgrade does.

I'd also put in a 2 point modification that adds barrel rolls to the action bar the same way Engine Upgrade does.

Haven't you then got an E-wing?

IMO the ideal fix would be something like the Advanced Fix, something that lowers the Modification cost, so you can customize it better. I'd also put in a 2 point modification that adds barrel rolls to the action bar the same way Engine Upgrade does.

This.

In the lore, X-wing pilots had very personal connections to their ships, and them and their engineers constantly tweak and customise their ships. These aren't the factory fresh identical ships of the Empire, these are the jury-rigged, customised, held-together-with-spit-and-miracles ships of a Rebellion supplied by defectors and sympathisers.

Haven't you then got an E-wing?

Not really. No system slot, more Hull but less shields, less defense dice. Different dial, no native BR. You also have a cheaper ship then the E-Wing with different pilots.

A discounted modification slot lets you customize the X-Wing which I believe fits in the lore fairly well. You can give it more hull, more shields, a barrel roll or a boost, or even an experimental interface for a discount.

The X-Wing is clearly a point or 2 too high for what it can do, and lacks options that every other ship out there has. A discounted mod slot lets you fix it in the way you see best, which is IMO the best way to do it, and as I said keeps the X-Wing in the Jack of All trades all around fighter role.

If we agree that the X-Wing and E-wing are both about 2 points to expensive, I'd like to see a title that affects them both.

I was thinking something like:

Rogue Squadron (0 points)

E-Wing or X-Wing only

Reduce the cost of any equipped (astromech) or (ept) by 2 points.

Yes, this would make VI be effectively -1 point to equip.

It plays to the strength of any given pilot, creates value for generics, separates X-Wings and E-Wings from everything else, etc.

And you still can't run 5 X-Wings in a list.

If most, not all, people thing the issue is really with the B-Wing then... wouldn't the be the time for FFG to break their stance and Errata the B-Wing?

If the B-wing were the pole toward which game balance was oriented, yes. But--and I thought I'd laid this out pretty clearly--the problem with that is that right out of the box, the TIE fighter, Headhunter, and B-wing all live together harmoniously at that pole. These days the A-wing with Chaardan Refit hangs out there, too, and the TIE Advanced is getting set to move in.

Plus, even if the B-wing was the outlying star in the statistical constellation, there's the question of how you promote the fix. The Chardaan Refit is an upgrade card; it's acknowledged as the best possible upgrade for A-wings in most contexts, but it's just an upgrade card. Your squad isn't as good as it could be if you fly a 17-point Prototype Pilot, but it isn't wrong.

But a list that didn't include the B-wing errata--say, they just increase the point cost of the generic ships to 23 and 25--is actually wrong. That leads to people showing up at tournaments with lists that aren't just subpar but are actually illegal for play. It leads to just the same kind of complexity that frustrates you, but with a bunch of additional, substantial downsides. It isn't going to happen.

We keep denying power creep but either in dials, actions or the upgrades we're getting there.

Again, think of it in terms of bringing ships up to the standard of the Wave 1 TIE fighter.

If we agree that the X-Wing and E-wing are both about 2 points to expensive...

The X-wing is about 1.5 points too expensive--adjusting the cost by 1 point isn't quite enough, but adjusting the cost by 2 would be a little too much. The E-wing is something like 3 points out of line, but I could be convinced that the gap is as much as 4 points.

It's not a bad idea in the abstract, but X-wings need a much smaller patch than E-wings do.

IMO the ideal fix would be something like the Advanced Fix, something that lowers the Modification cost, so you can customize it better. I'd also put in a 2 point modification that adds barrel rolls to the action bar the same way Engine Upgrade does.

This.

In the lore, X-wing pilots had very personal connections to their ships, and them and their engineers constantly tweak and customise their ships. These aren't the factory fresh identical ships of the Empire, these are the jury-rigged, customised, held-together-with-spit-and-miracles ships of a Rebellion supplied by defectors and sympathisers.

oh, I actually really like that idea a lot

I'm thinking you could paste it over the torpedo slot (cleared out to make more room for junk ). It would seem like a refit type fix, but apparently Wave 7 is set out to fix ordinance so it might later turn into a very pertinent choice. Do you take the slot to modify the X-wing, or do you use it for (hopefully) new and very powerful ordinance?

IMO the ideal fix would be something like the Advanced Fix, something that lowers the Modification cost, so you can customize it better. I'd also put in a 2 point modification that adds barrel rolls to the action bar the same way Engine Upgrade does.

This.

In the lore, X-wing pilots had very personal connections to their ships, and them and their engineers constantly tweak and customise their ships. These aren't the factory fresh identical ships of the Empire, these are the jury-rigged, customised, held-together-with-spit-and-miracles ships of a Rebellion supplied by defectors and sympathisers.

Same's true of all the rebel ships though.

Right, but none of them quite have the same reputation as the X-wing for this sort of thing.

Only because the X-wing takes centre stage.

oh, I actually really like that idea a lot

I'd actually make it a title. T-65a or some such.

Only because the X-wing takes centre stage.

And that's a reason to not do something?

The E-wing is something like 3 points out of line, but I could be convinced that the gap is as much as 4 points.It's not a bad idea in the abstract, but X-wings need a much smaller patch than E-wings do.

Obviously we'd also give the E-Wing the Tie /x1 title. Duh.

More seriously: it may be the case that a Knave Squadron pilot is only worth 24 points, but what upgrades are there that scale nonlinearly with those points? For instance: Any pilot that can take PTL + R2 (sadly, not any generic E-wing) is getting a heck of a boost.

Generally, yeah, I think you're right, and I'm not clever enough right now to shave 1.5 points off an X-Wing, while also shaving 3 points off an E-wing- with the same card.

But wow do I want to!

The X-wing is about 1.5 points too expensive--adjusting the cost by 1 point isn't quite enough, but adjusting the cost by 2 would be a little too much. The E-wing is something like 3 points out of line, but I could be convinced that the gap is as much as 4 points.

Undercosting the X-wing would not be catastrophic. Mathematically it's about 1.5 down, but it's also weak against arcdodgers in a way it wasn't in Wave I. I don't think a 19pt X-wing would kill the B-wing.

oh, I actually really like that idea a lot

I'd actually make it a title. T-65a or some such.

Only because the X-wing takes centre stage.

And that's a reason to not do something?

I'm saying it's not a special trait of the X-wing. The customisability of ships is already represented by the modification mechanic. Supermoddable X-wings certainly aren't a bad idea, but like double EPTs for A-wings the thematic backing isn't that strong. Defensible but not perfect.

I don't want X-wings to get boost or barrel roll. I know it would help, but I don't think it's the right solution. X-wings aren't that maneuverable and I'd rather the designers not change the character of a ship simply to make it better. Hell, let's give them turrets, that'll make them better too!

I like them as cumbersome jousters, they just need to be better at it. How? Well a Chardaan refit-esque or TIE advanced solution would work, but I'd rather not see the same fix twice. So I think the most appropriate fix would be a rogue squadron title card.

X-wings are the ultimate "buddy" ship, so I'd like to see something that increases their power if they have another X-wing with the rogue squadron title within range 1. Maybe +1 attack die and +2 PS if there's a nearby X-wing. Or maybe a reverse Lone Wolf ability.

For power reasons, it should probably be limited to generics, but I'd also like to see an EPT called Rogue Leader that would allow them to take the title card too. That way you could still benefit but not create a broken EPT+pilot ability+rogue squadron combo.

I dig this a lot.

What's "buddy" about X-wings? How do they work together more than any other Rebel squadron?

Defensible but not perfect.

Agreed, but it's just one of a couple reasons why I think a discount to the modification slot is the way to go.

The E-wing is something like 3 points out of line, but I could be convinced that the gap is as much as 4 points.It's not a bad idea in the abstract, but X-wings need a much smaller patch than E-wings do.

Obviously we'd also give the E-Wing the Tie /x1 title. Duh.

More seriously: it may be the case that a Knave Squadron pilot is only worth 24 points, but what upgrades are there that scale nonlinearly with those points? For instance: Any pilot that can take PTL + R2 (sadly, not any generic E-wing) is getting a heck of a boost.

Generally, yeah, I think you're right, and I'm not clever enough right now to shave 1.5 points off an X-Wing, while also shaving 3 points off an E-wing- with the same card.

But wow do I want to!

Right. It's a thorny problem, and I don't have the answer either... which is probably why FFG employs people like Alex and Frank but not me.

Defensible but not perfect.

Agreed, but it's just one of a couple reasons why I think a discount to the modification slot is the way to go.

They've done the discount thing, I don't think they will repeat that.

Honestly, The grip seems to be their durability. FFG, in the past, has recycled cards and abilities in slightly different forms: What about an Autothruster like modification for the X-wing? For 1 or 2 points allow an x-wing to: when defending against an attacker outside your firing arc, change one blank result to an evade result. (I like the name Rear Deflector Shields for this modification)

What's "buddy" about X-wings? How do they work together more than any other Rebel squadron?

Yeah it would really suck to have to take multiple X-Wings and keep them in formation to get a fix for them. That's not the case for the A-Wing or the TIE Advanced.

X-Wings really just need boost or barrel roll to stay competitive.