Only folks interested in an unbalanced 1 sided game of Empire, will think this game is REMOTELY balanced after Auto thrusters, Tie Advanced fix and even perhaps the most needed bomber fix (assuming its good).

Why do you persist in this tiresome rhetoric that not one person backs you on?

There is not one person on this forum that wants to create a game in which the Imperial faction's ships are overpowered compared to the other two because nobody on this forum is a complete idiot.

People want ships to be balanced to one another such that every ship in the game is useable. By and large people don't give a **** about "faction balance" because it's meaningless: you can't dynamically adjust your squad between games so balance is list to list. All the factions do is group the available ships and upgrades into three pools. If a faction has the ships they want, they'll use that one.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that somebody does somehow want the Empire to have an advantage, by means of giving them broken ships. Do you know what that would do?

It would make everyone fly those ships. Your "Imperial Homer" as you call it gains nothing because everyone else flies those broken ships too. No advantage has been gained, all that has been achieved is the death of variety.

When people complain about the Fat Falcon, they are NOT complaining about the Rebels. When people complain about the TIE phantom, they are NOT complaining about the Imperials.

So please, for the sake of your reputation on this forum, please drop this silly "Imperial Homer" rhetoric of yours before people end up knowing you as the guy who mouths off at any member who complains about a Rebel ship or fails to complain about an Imperial one.

Me? I'm fine with not fixing the X-Wing anyway. It seems that X-Wings (especially named pilots) see a lot of play and most people are talking about the generics. So fixing all X-Wings for one or two lone pilots seems silly. I'm not sure if some people could ever be satisfied.

I've come a bit around on the "named X-wings see a lot of play" idea. As monstrous as Predator Wedge is, no X-wing is built to survive the 4-dice zaniness we've gotten in these past few waves (phantom, dash, aggressor) since it has neither the health ala B-wing nor high enough agility to reliably whether the storm.

Predator Wedge is beastly against high agility, low health which I'm personally not seeing all that often apart from Soontir. Aggressors especially don't give two ***** about him

Meanwhile, my favorite "Stress Wing" build (V.I, R3-A2, Engine) has been relegated strictly to Luke Skywalker because, for whatever reason, Wes Jenson simply invites death even from unmodified enemies. It may just be horrible, continuous luck, but only Luke has proven to be reliably survivable enough to dedicate the 35 points to and not get completely hosed by these high health ships while being incredibly durable against everything else 3 dice and below (especially against swarms, until you blank out you're taking so little damage).

Personally speaking, I would now never put an X-wing on the competitive table if it wasn't Stress Luke or maybe R7 Tarn Mison.

If you stuck Wedge's ability on a B-wing, people would'nt fly Wedge. Same way you'd sometimes see people flying Darth Vader because of double actions, but never see a Storm or Tempest pilot.

So I see the call for a fix to the X-Wing not as a debate about balance but as a rather emotional appeal to bring the game to a more basic level.

Personally, I call for a fix to make it the opposite. I want the X-wing to be able to exist alongside all the new cool **** that FFG has given us over the lifetime of this game in the way that the tie advance (or at least Vader) will once the raider hits. We already have ways to bring the game down to a more basic level (it's called control, or "dragging your opponents' fancy-shmancy ships down into the mud with your generics") and if the X-wing doesn't "feel right" when taking extra moves then it's still been completely supplanted by the B-wing (which, despite being slower, can take an extra move) and now most likely by the BTL Y-wing.

Imo, the X-wing doesn't feel right without extra moves. It's a jack of all trades ships that has somehow become less maneuverable than the gunboat and the beast-of-burden of the same faction, and after slapping EU on stress wings I can't really go back (well, Tarn doesn't need it).

Maybe the astromech fix is the way to go, since that's basically the only thing keeping X-wings in the game for me. As much as I like Luke and have come to respect his pilot ability, he wouldn't see any table time without the illustrious R3-A2 (not enough damage, otherwise) nor Tarn without the R7. Without this unique upgrade slot, the base ship would have nothing going for it. With it, the X-wing at least occupies a nice niche with E-wings being too expensive Y-wings packing no EPT nor a good enough dial without the R2 (though R3-A2 is still quite great on a generic, it's just not hitting at PS 10 nor does it come pre-packaged with a solid 3 dice offense).

And finally, the generic Delta Squadron pilot is a boss, you just have to be crazy to fly it Maybe the Aggressors will shed some light on them, since Defenders are basically miniature aggressors themselves!

The x wing is the only small based ship in the game that doesn't have a native boost or barrel roll, turret, or filler prices. That is not good at all. The 3 major archetypes for the game are maneuverability, shooting out of arc, and swarms. The x wing has decent stats and great pilot abilities but without being able to do 1 of those 3 things they just aren't worth the points.

How's this for a different fix:

Rear Deflector Shield - Modification (X-wing only)

1 point

When defending, if the attacking ship is not in your firing arc, you may increase your agility by 1.

The x wing is the only small based ship in the game that doesn't have a native boost or barrel roll, turret, or filler prices. That is not good at all. The 3 major archetypes for the game are maneuverability, shooting out of arc, and swarms. The x wing has decent stats and great pilot abilities but without being able to do 1 of those 3 things they just aren't worth the points.

I wouldn't go so far as to paint the game into such broad archetypes, but I definetly agree with the message

The X-wing doesn't have the raw punch, power, or price to have such poor mobility...so why does it have such poor mobility?

Many posters on this forum have made a convincing case that the game doesn't suffer from a lot of power creep, but I think maneuver dials are the exception. The X-Wing's dial and consequent mobility are good - but "good" is not good enough compared to many other ships with better dials and move-as-action options.

As for Price & Punch...it's still the cheapest ship with 3 attack dice.

The x wing is the only small based ship in the game that doesn't have a native boost or barrel roll, turret, or filler prices. That is not good at all. The 3 major archetypes for the game are maneuverability, shooting out of arc, and swarms. The x wing has decent stats and great pilot abilities but without being able to do 1 of those 3 things they just aren't worth the points.

I wouldn't go so far as to paint the game into such broad archetypes, but I definetly agree with the message

The X-wing doesn't have the raw punch, power, or price to have such poor mobility...so why does it have such poor mobility?

There are two answers to that question, I think.

The first is that it's supposed to have the right punch for its price, but it doesn't as an artifact of some funny things that went on in Wave 1. It has between 150% and 200% of the offensive power of a TIE fighter, and about 120% of the durability, but it costs 175% as much. (The perception that it hits hard enough but is too squishy is pretty well supported, at this point.)

Other ships might be able to use their excellent dial or their actions or both to overcome that handicap, but the X-wing doesn't have that option--again, in my opinion due to some Wave 1 conceptions about faction identity that don't have as much relevance now. That is, the X-wing doesn't have barrel roll because the TIE fighter does.

So the problem is that (a) it's off the curve set by the TIE fighter in terms of its statistical efficiency, and (b) it doesn't have the tricks some other ships can use to outperform their stat line. You can fix that by reducing its price, adding an deliberately under-priced set of tricks, or both.

If you stuck Wedge's ability on a B-wing, people would'nt fly Wedge. Same way you'd sometimes see people flying Darth Vader because of double actions, but never see a Storm or Tempest pilot.

There are other generic pilots that are unpopular and/or of dubious value; Tie Defender, E-Wing, YT-1300, HWK, that Virago whatsitcalled. You can make a case for all of these that they need a fix, but the X-Wing is a special case because it is such an iconic ship. I think many players want the rookie and red squadron pilots to be good choices because they symbolize the game. Another reason is that they both rely on the basic elements of gameplay: anticipatory movement and tactical maneuvering. An X-Wing does not, by default, use movement as an action or turret fire. It represents the game at a fairly basic level. This is why boosts and barrel rolls for the X-Wing don't really 'feel' right. It doesn't seem like that is what the ship is supposed to do.

So I see the call for a fix to the X-Wing not as a debate about balance but as a rather emotional appeal to bring the game to a more basic level.

[...]

Imo, the X-wing doesn't feel right without extra moves. It's a jack of all trades ships that has somehow become less maneuverable than the gunboat and the beast-of-burden of the same faction, and after slapping EU on stress wings I can't really go back (well, Tarn doesn't need it).

[...]

Is the new call 'all X-Wing pilots should be the jackMaster-of-all-trades'? Is the generic X-Wing useless unless it is as good as or better than every other ship out there? Then when we balance everything else, Defender, HWK, E-Wing, etc... we'll have to rebuff the X-Wing again. No end in sight. You'll need 5 cards from 4 different expansions to play 1 X-Wing or anything else for that matter. Saying it's iconic doesn't not really justify power creep.

As for Price & Punch...it's still the cheapest ship with 3 attack dice.

Even excluding pseudo 3 dicers like Backstabber (16pt), Alpha Squadron Pilot says hi.

Many posters on this forum have made a convincing case that the game doesn't suffer from a lot of power creep, but I think maneuver dials are the exception.

The dials, no. It's reposition actions. Someone pointed out a month or two back that the X-wing and Z-95 Headhunter are the only two small base ships without a reposition action or a turret. That's not to say the X-wing should, but more that reposition actions have crept in a little too much.

This I think was done largely by mistake. All Imperial small basers are TIEs, and Barrel Roll is their signature action, not a single TIE (TIE bomber included) lacks it. Thing is, Barrel Roll kind of isn't a TIE signature any more. The E-wing has it, the Outrider has it, the Scyk has it, the Viper has it, hell, the bloody B-wing has it for some reason I can barely fathom. B-wings doing the TIE fighter dance.

Problem is, give the X-wing Barrel Roll and you've got an E-wing. Give it boost and you've got a better A-wing. Give it some crazy stuff and it's no longer an X-wing. Mechanically, I think the X-wing has the right setup. I think it needs either more action economy (highlighting its versatility) or, let's face it, more health.

Is the generic X-Wing useless unless it is as good as or better than every other ship out there?

Yes. The difference between ships should be role, not power. They're better at different jobs. The generic BTL-A4, BTL-S3, B-wing and X-wing all occupy the same point turf, and they all see use except the X-wing. The Y-wing and B-wing coexist because they're different beasts, in the same way the TIE advanced and TIE interceptor will coexist. The X-wing's problem is that the B-wing is a better X-wing than the X-wing.

If x wings were 3 points cheaper I'd throw engine upgrades on them all day or run 5 generics and be happy.

The x wing is the only small based ship in the game that doesn't have a native boost or barrel roll, turret, or filler prices. That is not good at all. The 3 major archetypes for the game are maneuverability, shooting out of arc, and swarms. The x wing has decent stats and great pilot abilities but without being able to do 1 of those 3 things they just aren't worth the points.

I wouldn't go so far as to paint the game into such broad archetypes, but I definetly agree with the message

The X-wing doesn't have the raw punch, power, or price to have such poor mobility...so why does it have such poor mobility?

There are two answers to that question, I think.

The first is that it's supposed to have the right punch for its price, but it doesn't as an artifact of some funny things that went on in Wave 1. It has between 150% and 200% of the offensive power of a TIE fighter, and about 120% of the durability, but it costs 175% as much. (The perception that it hits hard enough but is too squishy is pretty well supported, at this point.)

Other ships might be able to use their excellent dial or their actions or both to overcome that handicap, but the X-wing doesn't have that option--again, in my opinion due to some Wave 1 conceptions about faction identity that don't have as much relevance now. That is, the X-wing doesn't have barrel roll because the TIE fighter does.

So the problem is that (a) it's off the curve set by the TIE fighter in terms of its statistical efficiency, and (b) it doesn't have the tricks some other ships can use to outperform their stat line. You can fix that by reducing its price, adding an deliberately under-priced set of tricks, or both.

I'd get behind your analysis

Always thought that X-wings were so rigid not because the ship is isn't maneuverable in the fluff not because it'd break the game at large, but because Luke Skywalker would absolutely devour Night-beast and the Obsidian Tie in the core set matches

Is the generic X-Wing useless unless it is as good as... every other ship out there?

I'm going to go with "yes".

Saying it's iconic doesn't not really justify power creep.

Most of your post isn't talking about power creep, but about complexity. I understand that's your soapbox, lately, but it isn't terribly relevant here. You can play a very simple game that includes a number of underpowered ships, or you can play a more complex game that is balanced better. That choice is entirely up to you and your opponent.

This statement--that an iconic ship doesn't necessarily need to be the most powerful--is true but trivial. What people are talking about isn't power creep, it's bringing the X-wing up to the level established by the TIE fighter. It was tough to beat a 7-ship swarm with 4 X-wings in Wave 1, and the reason is that X-wings are overpriced by about a point relative to the TIE fighter (and because Rebels don't have access to a Howlrunner-style boost to massed offense).

I think the real problem is actually the B-wing being pretty screwed up in terms of its dial and its action bar. The B-wing has very tight turns, which, if you go by the logic I posted earlier in this thread, it shouldn't have. And, looking at other dials, the thoughts I had on how dials SHOULD look, were actually closely followed by the designers - up until the B-wing. So, the B-wing has the ability to turn way too tightly for a ship of its size, and it can barrel roll. Now, the B-wing is a very cool ship, and people who fly it are awesome, but if you want to differentiate the X-wing as the mainline rebel starfighter, the problem is less the X-wing itself than the B-wing, I think.

This is geared to Ken

1. The generic hwk is currently the cheapest ion platform in the game, most people take hwks though for there pilot abilities.

2. No one is going to argue with you about the generic e wings and defenders. Pretty much everyone thinks they're over costed. At least the e wing uniques see regular table time and corral has won tournaments. I wouldn't be surprised if we do see a sort of fix for those ships in the future.

I think the real problem is actually the B-wing being pretty screwed up in terms of its dial and its action bar. The B-wing has very tight turns, which, if you go by the logic I posted earlier in this thread, it shouldn't have. And, looking at other dials, the thoughts I had on how dials SHOULD look, were actually closely followed by the designers - up until the B-wing. So, the B-wing has the ability to turn way too tightly for a ship of its size, and it can barrel roll. Now, the B-wing is a very cool ship, and people who fly it are awesome, but if you want to differentiate the X-wing as the mainline rebel starfighter, the problem is less the X-wing itself than the B-wing, I think.

True, for the most part: I think the Wave 3 designers and playtesters underestimated the value of access to the 1-turn, even if it's red (and especially in conjunction with Fire Control System and Advanced Sensors, both of which reduce the impact of red maneuvers on the dial). In order to fall in line with the X-wing, the PS2 B-wing should come in at something more like 24 points, or have something more like 3 Hull/4 Shields.

Although I think the B-wing was a genuine mistake, it had the happy accident of being more or less in line with the TIE fighter (and, accordingly, with the Headhunter). The fact that the overwhelming majority of generic Rebel ships in Wave 4-5 tournaments were B-wings and Z-95s bears that out, I think.

I think the real problem is actually the B-wing being pretty screwed up in terms of its dial and its action bar. The B-wing has very tight turns, which, if you go by the logic I posted earlier in this thread, it shouldn't have. And, looking at other dials, the thoughts I had on how dials SHOULD look, were actually closely followed by the designers - up until the B-wing. So, the B-wing has the ability to turn way too tightly for a ship of its size, and it can barrel roll. Now, the B-wing is a very cool ship, and people who fly it are awesome, but if you want to differentiate the X-wing as the mainline rebel starfighter, the problem is less the X-wing itself than the B-wing, I think.

Perhaps but is there any change of getting back to the Barrel Roll is a TIE fighter move and faction identity? No one would support taking the barrel role away from the B-Wing or changing it's dial. But that might be a very good (for the game) change. Though Vorpal does point out that a TIE swarm did beat and equivalent number of points in X-Wings; would that be true with current named pilots?

Vorpal aside from my concern of complication I'm still very reluctant to focus on a single generic when there are so many other good uses for the named pilots. Fix one break the rest?

P.S. I'm trying to save my 'current' soap box for the proper threads

I think the real problem is actually the B-wing being pretty screwed up in terms of its dial and its action bar. The B-wing has very tight turns, which, if you go by the logic I posted earlier in this thread, it shouldn't have. And, looking at other dials, the thoughts I had on how dials SHOULD look, were actually closely followed by the designers - up until the B-wing. So, the B-wing has the ability to turn way too tightly for a ship of its size, and it can barrel roll. Now, the B-wing is a very cool ship, and people who fly it are awesome, but if you want to differentiate the X-wing as the mainline rebel starfighter, the problem is less the X-wing itself than the B-wing, I think.

It's very much the B-wing outclassing the X-wing, yes. It's not that the X-wing doesn't have a place in lists, it does, but the B-wing's sitting in the same spot and doing better at it. The B-wing's dial was meant to be a weakness: it was meant to be a "bomber" with an Achilles dial and ordnance slots. It was meant to fly oddly but at a stress penalty and thus action economy penalty. Apparently Wave 3's designers never figured someone would strip the sensor package out of a Lambda-class and plug it into a B-wing. They did and it took Worlds.

We can't make the B-wing less X-wing, so we need to make the X-wing less B-wing. I'm not sure how to do that.

No one would support taking the barrel role away from the B-Wing or changing it's dial. But that might be a very good (for the game) change.

Moot because you can't do that. If FFG could just tweak cards like that then they could tweak costs, no need for fancy fixes like TIE/x1.

Right, but the deal is, you can't make the X-wing less B-wing without screwing over the A-wing, not unless we're talking about giving it some different hitting power or something.

You're assuming making the X-wing less B-wing constitutes giving it Boost or Barrel Roll. I'd suggest improving its action economy such as by RecSpecMech (strengthening it offensively and defensively without restatting it) or buffing its hull or shields a bit to make it six health and give it rough power parity with the B-wing. Very interested to see how FFG does it.

The most significant 1 point difference in the game is the 1 point between a rookie pilot a day blue squad pilot. No 1 point upgrade makes more of a difference than that one. If you're taking rookies you should sacrifice a point somewhere in your list to get that b wing. That's where the problem lies. There's nothing really the x wing does better than the b wing.

You're assuming making the X-wing less B-wing constitutes giving it Boost or Barrel Roll. I'd suggest improving its action economy such as by RecSpecMech (strengthening it offensively and defensively without restatting it) or buffing its hull or shields a bit to make it six health and give it rough power parity with the B-wing. Very interested to see how FFG does it.

That just makes the X-wing MORE B-wing in my opinion.

I think the real problem is actually the B-wing being pretty screwed up in terms of its dial and its action bar. The B-wing has very tight turns, which, if you go by the logic I posted earlier in this thread, it shouldn't have. And, looking at other dials, the thoughts I had on how dials SHOULD look, were actually closely followed by the designers - up until the B-wing. So, the B-wing has the ability to turn way too tightly for a ship of its size, and it can barrel roll. Now, the B-wing is a very cool ship, and people who fly it are awesome, but if you want to differentiate the X-wing as the mainline rebel starfighter, the problem is less the X-wing itself than the B-wing, I think.

Couldn't disagree more

Imo, the B-wing is the ideal ship that this game should aspire to. The sheer amount of variety you can milk out of the humble Blue Squadron is immense and, imo, essential to sustaining interest in a squadron (variety is the spice of life, and the lifeblood of any game). Taking away the B-wing's flexibility or any of it's current design (including the dial) would be doing Rebels, and the game at large, a huge disservice imo (though I do appreciate how it isn't in line with actual physics, but Star Wars was never much for those to be fair )

This is largely why I'm very excited for Wave 6 Y-wings. The ship already had a solid control game, but now they're beefing up its damage, giving it a bomb slot, and just opening it up to fill a wider variety of roles. I'm hoping we have an X-wing fix/addition that does the ship a similar service.

Right, but the deal is, you can't make the X-wing less B-wing without screwing over the A-wing, not unless we're talking about giving it some different hitting power or something.

I don't know about this. Imo, A-wings are already pretty screwed over by their stat-line more than anything else (2 dice attacks are just so crap with all this high agility running around)

But at least they occupy a unique niche. Barrel-rolling Bs are great blockers, but the plucky prototype is the blocker

Seriously, all my most recent Rebel lists would not exist without the prototype pilot (the lone bandit fills the same point range but is just garbage in comparison) and I owe much of their ability to dethrone top meta threats such as Dash and Whisper to the little A-wing being the biggest pain in the ass this side of the far far away galaxy.

Anyone else really want FFG to errata a boost action onto their X-wings?

I'd love to get some auto-thrusters on them

Nahh the Xwing needs to remain the piece of crap I have always thought it was. Rebel hippies! X11 will rule