@taegins...I understand your perspective and appreciate it. I made my min/max PC w/ the idea that I was going to be the Best Pilot out there in the fastest possible way. And I loved the aspect of 2 wpns so I bought 2 blasters by taking an extra obligation to do it. I consciously made the choice that I would be great in battle w/ 2 guns & be the best starfighter pilot as soon as possible so I started my PC w/ 4 Agl & 3 Cun for a Smuggler Pilot. (This is before Gunslinger and other fun stuff like Correllian Human came out)

As the game progressed, I used my Xp to gain piloting as fast as I could and lv my range lt skill. I eventually started to spread out my xp to other skills but mainly started w/ skills first then added talents later. There are still some skills that I need in order to make my PC more well-rounded but because they are out of my skill tree they cost more so I chose not to advance them right away. As a result, I am deficient in negotiating & charm & other social or trying to buy items skills. I have to rely on my teammates to get items that have higher rarities.

When I finally got clarification on the rules about 2 weapons, I followed the rules to make my guns the best they could be within reason. Now I cannot get the jury-rig or other crazy bananas stuff, but I can rock 2 wpns pretty well and hit 9/10 times. 7/10 w/ both guns, in my current setup. So staying w/ the theme of my PC I will upgrade my guns so that they can do the most dmg withing my price range. Cuz remember Superior-5K and if on Both guns is 10K....that is a Frakkin' a lot of credits. Then adding BAM and hoping that you can get all or 3 of the mods on it etc. is a gamble as well.

So there are pros & cons and you need to have communication (which I agree w/ you on) because before we started my group, we talked about what we wanted and how we were going to allocate our classes. (1 Mech/Slicer, Pilot, Driver, Scoundral, Gun) that is our setup. We don't have a medic really but our ship works & we kill badguys good & fast. Sometimes our GM has to upgrade badguys but that is a small price to pay and I love the challenge.

I strongly believe though that it is all choices of the player in question & just a necessary evil of the game as players get more powerful in the game the balance issue becomes more wonky. In 3.5Ed D&D once you get beyond lv 13 the CL system becomes Out of Scale. The PCs become so powerful that the badguys get pwned depending on your setup group with 4rds. In our games the DM has to create their own monster stats to scale w/ the PCs in order to make the battles more challenging because the base mobs SUCK AT HIGHER LEVELS!

All games have this problem unless the creators specifically tested them at higher levels and actually TRY to 'Blowup' the game at higher levels w/ the talents & skills.

I say let your imagination go, but make sure to keep the GM in the loop so that he/she can make the game balanced for all & not to "Kill the PC in the next game in some epic way"

What do I do? Allow or not? I mean, I was never really comfortable with Autofire+Jury Rigged to begin with, but this didn't bother my players. I'm not Ok with the power discrepancy this creates between players. It creates a rocket tag situation and, like someone else said, an arms race.

If you're not okay with it, legal or not, you all need to talk about it. It's impacting your fun. Maybe a compromise can be found.

I've seen "Bantha Eye" mentioned in posts from time to time. Where is this from? I'm not finding it in my books offhand.

I've seen "Bantha Eye" mentioned in posts from time to time. Where is this from? I'm not finding it in my books offhand.

Isn't that the laser sight attachment from Dangerous Covenants?

Ohhh... the laser sight. I've just been calling it "the laser sight." LoL

Thanks!

I like the idea of limiting the number of auto-fire activations to the number of successes. That said, that player is still doing a ridiculous lot of damage. As a GM I would remove the Jury Rigged from Auto-fire. That will limit it a little, but in all honesty this guy sounds like a Combat Beast even without the auto-fire wonkiness. Some points that may help.

Weapons that can do that should be very illegal. He would have to leave "Vera" at home most of the time. It would make the limited times that he gets to use her actually epic.

They might resent not being able to use super auto-fire all the time. Even so, if someone spots a guy going crazy with all that, AIM at his weapon. Two setback dice isn't too bad to try and damage it. Have everyone target him due to his reputation. If someone is mowing down all of your friends, don't hesitate to have everyone consider him a threat.

Go over the sunder rules and don't hesitate to use them.

Also, consider the very realistic "overheating" possibility. A good house-rule would be for every time they activate auto-fire more than once then the weapon can overheat. If they do it the first time in an encounter, ok, the second time, the weapon becomes Minor Damaged. The third, Moderate, then lastly Major. The player could make the choice to light up the room, but at the cost of having to make repairs later. This can get expensive (plus there are the penalties for using a damaged weapon!). This doesn't limit the build that much, but also makes it manageable.

If the auto-fire rigged weapon doesn't have some huge power pack, consider spending despair and threat (if any is generated) as if the weapon were a heavy blaster. 3 threat and it runs out of ammo. Minor inconvenience for anyone with the "Spare Clip" talent but if they don't have it then that could be an option.

Adding to my original points about slowing xp at a certain point cap-- I used to LARP ...the game has been going on for 20+ years. The game never had a CAP system-- it wasn't designed with one. It assumes that campaigns would end and stories would end and new ones would begin. This chronicle had never ended. We saw characters with 1000+ xp which was about 10 years in real life time (2 -4 games a month). These characters were GODS they could not be killed unless you cheated--- literally. To kill a cheater you just cheat (that was literally told to me by a veteran player). You make characters that are gods at a certain point level. You need to know when to slow the xp and power creep. NOT ONLY because characters become gods but if you don't your plots become more and more ludicrous-- 10+ mobs with 20 guys each in it or 10 nemesis ...things you have add to make the bad guy last a round ...now your playing an entirely whacky game.

What do I do? Allow or not? I mean, I was never really comfortable with Autofire+Jury Rigged to begin with, but this didn't bother my players. I'm not Ok with the power discrepancy this creates between players. It creates a rocket tag situation and, like someone else said, an arms race.

Then ban the combination and don't look back. It sounds like you're already ahead of the curve banning Jury-Rigged Autofire.

Some stuff is just too good, and I seriously doubt the writers introduce every piece of content with an eye to how it might possibly stack with everything else already written. The more content is out there, the more that things written in isolation can be combined in ways that break the game.

Another way to limit it is to inflict strain for every autofire spent above Brawn. 4 brawn, can activate 4 times, 5th time 1 strain, 6th time 2 strain, ...

Again, silliness can be managed by house rules as long as they're balance and don't absurdly screw over the player's character.

I was showing the new Gambler talent tree from Fly Casual (only its outline, we don't have the book yet) to the gambling Twi'Lek PC of the party. I thought it would be a fitting addition to the concept. But the player who really listened was the 1000xp Gadgeteer/Assassin/Heavy/Gunner/Sharpshooter using the (in)famous Jury Rigged/Autofire combo.

If this player wants to buy into the Gambler spec so they can do this excessive amount of damage-dealing make them actually justify picking it up. Given the spec spread listed it seems they've focused solely on a narrow path; one that the Gambler is pretty divergent from. In the end, XP expenditure should be based on more than "I want my character to have this and I've got the points." Particularly for a game such as this, in terms of both setting and intent. They'll need to provide a character reason for this addition. Further, it should be better than "my character rolled a chance cube once as a child and has had the itch ever since" or them simply mentioning playing a hand or two of sabacc during a single game session.

That said, even if they can't provide a reasonable justification for it then, you can work with them over several session of them working toward picking this spec up. This has to be actual effort, one that will likely involve losing a lot of credits in the process. If they want the Gambler spec, they need to gamble and that means losing some. Some, in this context probably mean "a lot". After a while they'll either decide it isn't worth it or enjoy it more after working for it.

OK everyone, here's how I am planning to deal with this:

I just sent a lengthy "firm but polite" message on our group's chat explaining why I would forbid Double of Nothing for the moment. It goes like this (summarized):

1) Double or Nothing is forbidden for the time being;
2) The damage race is killing my GM creativity and stops me from having fun preparing my games;
3) I'll keep monitoring Autofire until a more permanent solution is found, it is still the strongest option in the system, and the most prone to abusing (it's easily acquired, has no maximum number of hits, allows targeting any number of foes and attributing damage in any wanted configuration, all of which no other option allows at once; the most overpowered Force power (Move) uses Autofire...);
4) I'm OK with your characters being strong, except when it creates an endless arms race or when it forces me to break the suspension of disbelief of the group.
5) If this is too much of a nerf, I'm opened to allowing retirement of your character with less of an XP penalty than usual. A suitably satisfying "ending" will take place, as agreed between me and the player.
6) New characters should also avoid one trick ponies, need I remind you?
7) [The group's gunner using the Autofire combos] can continue with his current setup, as only Double or Nothing was forbidden before even being introduced, though he is seriously invited to diversify his skillset
8) Those conditions are final.

I promised the players I'd try to find a solution to Autofire, and I'm still open to new ideas. I really haven't found anything yet on the scale of overpowered that Autofire is, except the Double or Nothing combo. Even starship weapons don't deal 150-420 damage per turn in our game (the multiplier is only x5, not x10, between planetary and personal-scale). Truth be told, of all the overpowered things my player's have had access to since the start of our game, nothing has been as overpowered as the above Autofire character. With minimal XP expenditure and credits, he could have replicated this combo on pistols and smaller carbines.

I hope this wasn't too heavy handed. I really insisted on the fact the "highest damage possible" race was a major turn-off for me as a GM, and that it was a video game / Magic the Gathering thing that wasn't at all what I envisoned for the storytelling.

Thanks for all your suggestions!

The message does not sound impolite, just a bit one-sided.

I don't know with whom you play. I am lucky to play with my friends of old, so the way I handle these decisions is over a beer with everybody sitting and commenting about it. I recommend you to do something similar if they are also your friends. Sit and discuss it, expose your points and listen to theirs. I have taken quite drastic decisions over this game, like limiting soak and banning all signature abilities. I have discussed each of this aspects (and others) with my gaming group and it has gone smooth.

Best luck.

Yeah, they're friends. It sounds less harsh in French in the non-TL;DR version of it.

I promised the players I'd try to find a solution to Autofire, and I'm still open to new ideas. I really haven't found anything yet on the scale of overpowered that Autofire is, except the Double or Nothing combo.

This may be stupid but, what about rising the cost to three advantages instead of two?

I'm thinking about that, but I don't want to negatively impact less skilled, non-combat monster NPCs and PCs when using Autofire. That would be unrealistic (Autofire would almost never trigger for them) and too much of a nerf.

I've actually run the maths in excel using approximate odds taken from http://game2.com/eote/

All damage numbers are from using a Heavy Blaster Rifle (with different levels of aiming, attachments and mods)

CtH : Chance to Hit

CtA : Chance to get one or more advantages

~AtH : Approximate average number of successes per hit

~AtA : Approximate average number of advantages per hit

Mook : A minion/rival without adversary standing in partial cover or using an armor with Defense 1 at close range (+Autofire difficulty die)

Nemesis : A nemesis with Adversary 3 with a Defense score of 3 at close range (+Autofire difficulty die)

Normal Dmg : Damage inflicted on an average check [if it hits], including all the damage from Autofire hits

J.R. Dmg : Damage inflicted on an average check [if it hits], including all the damage from Autofire hits with Jury Rigged

+Double or N. : Damage inflicted on an average check [if it hits], including all the damage from Autofire hits with Jury Rigged and Double or Nothing talent chain

Bold numbers : If damage is > 50

Red Bold numbers : If damage is > 100

(The numbers for Double or Nothing are slightly off because of the upgraded difficulty which was hard to account for. The difference would be minimal nonetheless.)

Assuming a Heavy Blaster Rifle with Superior/Bantha Eye, as well as different levels of Aiming (once, twice, true aim, etc.), characteristics and skill levels on the part of the shooter, one obtains the above numbers in numerous configurations.

One may notice, looking at the numbers, that Autofire only really kicks in above "Veteran" level of shooting skills. Below that, the averaged odds of having enough advantages to activate Autofire are too low to create any real imbalance. If one increases the number of Advantages required to activate Autofire, this would specifically impact those who do not really create an imbalance.

Also, looking at the numbers, we can see that Jury Rigged adds roughly +75% damage on average Autofire uses for "Legendary" or above levels of skill. We can also see that, when combined with Double or Nothing , the increase goes well above +300% damage per combat check. All this, using a simple upgraded Heavy Blaster Rifle, not an E-Web!

I’m still thinking that the solution here is to either not allow Jury Rigged to be applied to auto-fire, or to allow it to only be applied to the first activation of auto-fire — much like the new Hair Trigger attachment.

The second thing is to not allow players to get up to Plaid level, because five yellow and two green isn’t that bad if the Nemesis has decent Soak.

But it’s your game, and you’ve got to do what feels right to you. So, YMMV.

I'm just going to point out that, while this is incredible, there's nothing in here that talks about their soak, their wounds or their strain.

If I were GMing this, I'd have their ultimate nemesis be a politico who kept inflicting strain damage on them. Or just throw a ton of minion groups at them. Fifteen hits? 420 points of damage? Fine. You can give them minions to mow down by the score, but I do think that while this is good for straight-up combat, it is not so good for people who sneak and use skulduggery instead of straight-up combat. A character who regularly throws down with heavy blaster rifles is still not going to fare well against, say, his ship blowing up. Also, a decent nemesis force-user should just yank the heavy blaster rifle right of if the PCs hands!

Also, I have to ask how this character is throwing eight yellow dice? I know how to get to seven green five yellow, and I suspect you can upgrade a combat roll twice using talents to get to seven yellow, but how do you get that eighth die and upgrade it?

I'm thinking about that, but I don't want to negatively impact less skilled, non-combat monster NPCs and PCs when using Autofire. That would be unrealistic (Autofire would almost never trigger for them) and too much of a nerf.

Actually, saving for the extra difficulty die, with the need of three advantages, it will trigger as often as a critical hit, which needs three disadvantages. Also remember that you can activate it with triumphs.

Just saying

What about making Auto-Fire similar to Blast and just give it a base damage number? So give a standard blaster rifle Auto-Fire 4 (or whatever else you feel appropriate) and instead of double damage they take 4 damage and it can still be activated multiple times? Or it deals half damage of the first hit? Or each activation deals half again? <- thats a REAL nerf!

Also, I have to ask how this character is throwing eight yellow dice? I know how to get to seven green five yellow, and I suspect you can upgrade a combat roll twice using talents to get to seven yellow, but how do you get that eighth die and upgrade it?

4 ranks in the True Aim talent would give you 4 upgrades on the ranged/heavy check (which is essentially 2 more yellow dice). My guess is the PC has max agility, max ranks in ranged/heavy, and some cyberware

my back-of-the-envelope calculations

agility 7

ranks ranged/heavy 6

ranks true aim 4

so you start with 6 yellow, 1 green, then have 4 upgrades

As a said before, I think he could get to 9 yellow by using a force power

That's crazy

By virtue of being an RPG, combat still has its traditional "special standing". And being Star Wars, this is not out of place at all. The rules are crispier, clearer, more detailed. Combat elicits this simulationist vibe, be it a simulation of reality or a simulation of movie characters. Players, AFAIK, want credible combat situations and often judge whole systems based on that. Players will be thankful and happy with other aspects of a game system being well done, but people will still consider bad combat mechanics more of a deal breaker.

When our Presense 6, Charm 5, Force Rating 5, Seer/Makashi Duelist/Niman Disciple/Advisor makes a Charm check with all five Force dice added, plus various talents, as a GM I often feel like I can't justify raising the social challenges that high. I use diverse skills, which encourages spreading out skill points, but the fact remains that the "charmer" rarely fails to do the thing even in the most unlikely circumstances. But I tend to be more wary of a PC being able to single-handedly kill 84 Stormtroopers in one action or down multiple TIE fighters using personal scale weapons. I've never had the same problems with Mechanics, Computer or Medicine. Stealth is more of a thorny one, us having a PC with AGI 7, Stealth 5, Master of Shadows, Optical Camouflage on armor and a looted Personal Stealth field, despite all those having been acquired very legitimately, this can sometimes give me headaches.

I have a character like this a few forums over in Rogue Trader. He's the Arch Militant, but he's also a Space Marine (Deathwatch). He out combats everyone else without question. It took a little getting used to, but our group has come to actually enjoy having this kind of character around the same way many groups enjoy having the Face around. (it's worth noting that my super-warrior player isn't roll player, so he's genuinely interested in playing the Space Marine personality)

The party will explore, talk and do their general adventuring. When combat breaks out, the rest of the players disappear into groups of minions or take full cover while the Space Marine wades in. In places where they had to spring ambushes they've spotted or assault a position, it's become a case of the Rogue Trader slapping the Space Marine on the shoulder and saying "Let us know when you've secured it." and breaking out the tea set to wait. (or binoculars to watch).

One advantage of this game is that you don't have to spend experience on combat if you don't want to. So you can leave it to one person, plus what little help you can provide from somewhere fairly safe.

I find it's a much bigger problem when you have two people trying to be the combat master, particularly if they have different styles. I can work with the uber-marauder or the uber-gunner, but having one of each would be a nightmare.

(That said, I think jury-rigged/Autofire seems overpowered as well)

I wouldn't necessarily ban Double or Nothing outright, but I might ban it for combat checks only.

Also, jesus, new character XP penalties are so so so sucky.