Since she came out, I assumed without much thought thsy Dany's kill effect (like the effect for other cards like Red Rain or Nighttime Raid) resolved as passives in step 4 of the framework action window on which can a challenge resolves. But ... Hammerhorn Raiders. The effect is the same: if you win a challenge (and meet a condition while doing so), X happens. But in the HR case, the effect (raising claim) must happen BEFORE claim (you can't retroactively raise claim), where something that resolved as a passive would happen after claim.

That said, when does Dany's kill effect resolve, and why? If the answer is "as a passive," then why is HR different, and when does that effect resolve?

Hah, this is basically just a follow up to your Handmaidens question a thread ago!

This is a question that's been plaguing me for quite some time (recently, someone asked me about Nighttime Raid (If statement) vs The Old Way (passive, "After" statement)), which is basically the same question.

The use of the word "IF" is extremely haphazard. It's can be pretty easy to tell where it would make more sense for it to *be* a passive rather than a constant. Something like Astapor," If you win the challenge, stand that character. " seems pretty obvious: they could have said "after", but then people would ask "What happens if I don't win that challenge!", so my guess is that in these cases, "IF" is intended to be a conditional "After", and therefore a passive. In other cases, "IF" is clearly a check that has to happen constantly (a conditional constant). "If you control a Martell character". "If you win a challenge in which Tyrion Lannister attacked alone", or the Hammerhorn Raiders.

The trouble is, there isn't really a hard and fast rule to differentiate between all the forms - at least not one I can readily explain that would hold true in every case. My rulings, in the few times it's come up, has been to interpret ALL of these "if" statements as conditional constants. Dany, then, would resolve as soon as a challenge winner were determined (framework step 1) before claim (framework step 2). It's not intuitive, but it doesn't break the game and works consistently across all these if statements.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this is a case of the game not working how it's intended. I'd love to hear from ktom on this one!

I think you're trying to treat situations that are clearly different as if they are the same.

An "if" statement will indeed always be conditional. But that conditional statement does not define the type of effect you are dealing with. Take a close look t the FULL text of Hammerhorn Raiders:

"While Hammerhorn Raiders is attacking, raise the claim value on your revealed plot card by 1 if you win the challenge by counting at least twice STR as the defending player."

That beginning statement of "while HR is attacking" makes it pretty clear that the ability as a whole is taken as a continuous effect that is applied while the character is attacking. Therefore, since you will know if the condition (winning the challenge by 2x STR) is true or not before claim effects, there is no trouble with this continuous effect being applied before claim is resolved

Conversely, Dany says, "If you win the challenge, kill a character." In this case, the "kill" is clearly a discrete effect that happens whether you want it to or not (assuming that the condition is met). With no bold timing trigger, the "if" statement effectively replaces the usual "after," effectively creating a "conditional after."

What it comes down to is that a conditional "if" clause cannot be used to define the type of effect any more than any other play restriction can. Saying that "if" always indicates a conditional constant that initiates and resolves immediately upon becoming true would be like saying "choose a character" always indicates a player choice and therefore a triggered ability. You usually have to look to the verb in the sentence, not the conditionals or play restrictions to figure out what kind of effect you're dealing with.

That's the "hard and fast" rule, btw, Istaril. What kind of effect would it be without the "if" statement? It's the same kind with it.

TL:DR - The "while" on Hammerhorn Raiders indicates that you are dealing with a constant effect (with a condition). The "kill" without a bold timing trigger on Dany indicates that you are dealing with a passive effect (with a condition).