Pretty much how it works by Klutz's model.

So two ships that both collide on the sides, one is touching and one isn't. Two ships that move (and collide) at the same PS, one is touching and one isn't.

This is why, IMHO, the Stationary ruling is what it is. It's a guess, of course, but otherwise you get crazy hard-to-reconcile situations like that. I'd honestly welcome an overhaul the whole "touching" mess, but since we aren't likely to get that I'll be happy with a nice, clean, "overlapping creates touching which lasts until one of the ships actually moves". Whatever logic makes it a good ruling for stationary maneuvers should apply equally to a no-movement blocking situation.

Pretty much how it works by Klutz's model.

So two ships that both collide on the sides, one is touching and one isn't. Two ships that move (and collide) at the same PS, one is touching and one isn't.

If you bump into a higher PS ship, the only way you'll still be touching after that ship activates is if the ship does a [0] maneuver, or the ship overlaps you while attempting it's maneuver.

What I don't like about a model where a ship that attempts a maneuver, overlaps and ends up not moving is considered to maintain all previous touching states is that it's basically making an exception for x=0, where x is the ship's "displacement".

- Did the ship move half an inch? Touching states broken.

- Did the ship move a sixteenth of an inch? Touching states broken.

- Did the ship move 0 inches? Exception! Touching states maintained!

The only exception in my model is for the [0] maneuver, which is internally consistent with the FAQ ruling and the special rule for the [0] maneuver: "To execute the [0] maneuver, the active player leaves the ship where it is, keeping its position and facing unchanged."

If you use your model, then my Scenario C is weird:

Before Firespray activates, Blue is touching it's side and Red is immediately in front of it but not considered touching, since it barrel rolled into position.

What happens if FS does a 1 straight?

By your logic, the FS hasn't moved, so it is still touching Blue. But it is now also touching Red, because it overlapped. This is weird to me since, how can the FS move into Red but still be considered to have not moved away from Blue? Wouldn't the fact it is now touching Red imply that the FS moved infinitesimally closer to Red - which should have broken the touching state with Blue?

And, if you consider that the FS has in fact moved away from Blue and is now only touching Red, then consider scenario B, where Blue bumps into the side of FS, Red bumps into the front and FS attempts 1 straight. By your model, FS is touching both Blue and Red, since it didn't move. Which means that, depending on whether or not FS was already touching Red before attempting it's 1-straight, it will, or won't be touching Blue afterwards. That, to me, is a lot weirder than the logic that my model produces.

I find my model to be robust, internally consistent and consistent with the rules we have so far. Heck, it even explains the stationary maneuver FAQ entry based on the stationary maneuver's special rules. I also find the scenarios it produces to be much easier to explain to someone, step by step.

"Whatever logic makes it a good ruling for stationary maneuvers should apply equally to a no-movement blocking situation."

I'd rather have the exception that allows a ship to perform it's maneuver and maintain touching states apply to the [0] maneuver (that already has special rules: no template, no picking up the model, etc), than have it apply to any maneuver choice that results in 0 displacement.

In my model, if you were to write out the detailed steps for performing a maneuver, you'd have a step labelled "all previous touching states are broken" after the step where you pick up the model to place it at the other end of the template. This deals well with the [0] maneuver, since that's already a special case that skips a bunch of the steps involved in performing a maneuver.

In your model, you'd need an "if" block at the end that asks whether the ship's final position is different from it's initial position.

Edit: Sorry if this is poorly formatted, I'm on my iPad...

Even if you like your scenarios, I notice that you're careful to keep them to straights. What happens if it's a bank instead? Now whether the Blue is touching will actually depend on the direction of the bank. Straight or bank right, no touching. Bank left, touching.

<shrug> Honestly, the base problem is that the whole overlap/touching thing is a mess. We're debating the color of paint we prefer to cover the mold with. We'll see what color FFG likes soon enough, I hope.

Even if you like your scenarios, I notice that you're careful to keep them to straights. What happens if it's a bank instead? Now whether the Blue is touching will actually depend on the direction of the bank. Straight or bank right, no touching. Bank left, touching.

<shrug> Honestly, the base problem is that the whole overlap/touching thing is a mess. We're debating the color of paint we prefer to cover the mold with. We'll see what color FFG likes soon enough, I hope.

I don't see how banks or turns would be a problem here?

The same idea still applies :

1. Both A-Wings perform their maneuvers, overlapping FS or not.
2. FS performs it's maneuver
   1. Movement template is place in front of Firespray
   2. Firespray is lifted off the play surface (Doing so, the Firespray is no longer touching either A-Wing)
   3. Firespray's intended final position would cause it to overlap an A-Wing
   4. Firespray is moved "backward along the top of the template until it no longer overlaps another ship"
   5. Firespray is placed so that "the bases of both ships are touching"
3. The FS is considered to be touching any of the ship(s) it overlapped, if it's base touches both ships

There are 2 conditions to be considered touching multiple ships:

1. You need to have overlapped both ships when attempting your maneuver
2. You need to be touching both ships after having moved backwards along the template

In the scenarios we've been discussing with the straight maneuvers, the first condition is not met: the FS never overlaps the Blue A-Wing, even if it ends it's maneuver in base contact with it after moving backwards along the template.

If we consider bank or turn maneuvers, yes, the FS might end it's maneuver touching 2 ships. If Blue is touching the right edge of the FS, and Red is touching the front of the FS :

• A right turn or bank will leave the FS touching both ships (as soon as the front of the FS moves forward, it also goes right and overlaps Blue)
• A left turn or bank will leave the FS touching only Red (as soon as the front of the FS moves forward, it also goes left, away from Blue - so no overlap, and no touching)

That FAQ section seems like another point in favor of my model, and contradicts your model.

This happened today at the final of a store championship. The TO had sent a email to FFG some times ago but didn't get an answer yet. This really need to be clarified quickly.

In the FAQ(p5) they specify if you are touching and you perform a (stop) maneuver then you are considered touching.

So can't shoot the touching ship (p17), no problem.

But would you still get to perform an action in this case as you are not overlapping?

In the FAQ(p5) they specify if you are touching and you perform a (stop) maneuver then you are considered touching.

So can't shoot the touching ship (p17), no problem.

But would you still get to perform an action in this case as you are not overlapping?

This thread is from before the release of the most recent FAQ.

Regarding your question:

If you're touching and perform a stationary maneuver, you did not overlap so would not be required to skip your "Perform Action" step. However, the only ways to perform a stationary maneuver at the moment generally involve giving your ship a stress token, which stops you from performing any actions.

You could do the following:

• Omicron Group Shuttle performs stationary maneuver, therefore does not overlap but remains touching another ship.
• Captain Yorr decides to receive the stress token instead of Omicron
• Omicron gets to perform action

I am a fairly new player, and I just came across this thread. I wanted to throw an idea or two out there and see if it makes sense. If it does, it will help me understand the game. If not, thanks for the material already posted.

The situation seemed clear. A Y-Wing had bumped into a Lambda.

The Lambda went to move, but couldn't complete its action.

Question: Are they still touching? If not, can the Y-Wing now fire upon the Lambda?

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Scenario A: the Lambda "gets away." It actually creates some physical distance between the two ships.

Did not happen in this case, but yes, the Y-Wing can fire away.

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Scenario B: Parking Brake logic. As per the FAQs, if a Lambda puts on the stationary [0] maneuver and "goes nowhere", the two ships are still touching.

Putting on the parking brake and "going nowhere" are not the same thing.

Don't think it is relevant. But no, if the Lamdba had put on the parking brakes they would still be in contact.

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Scenario C: The only thing left to do... I am thinking, is check out the FAQ. Let's lay out the supposition and try to munge everything together to the best of my ability.

"the ships are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact because the other ship tried to move but couldn't."

followed by:

"the currently moving ship will now "break away" from every ship that it doesn't bump during its current movement and make itself a valid target."

Overlapping Inline Ships

Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped).

So, I don't see the conditions above as applying directly to the FAQ listed. And while it did take parts at times, it was piecemeal, and I think the FAQ on this subject (as with all subjects by FFG) are mean to be taken "as a whole."

Okay.

Did the previous round end with the Y-Wing and the Lambda touching each other, parallel and facing the same direction?

During the current round, are both ships trying to execute maneuvers of the same speed, barrel rolls and boosts?

If you can say "yes" to both-- then the ships are longer touching.

It doesn't say anything about "breaking away" or trying to break away as someone terminating a "touching condition" or bumping condition during the "current round." You bump. Either the ships create physical distance between the two (thus ending the contact) or they stay in the same place. (and they are still bumping until the end of the current round)

I definitely understand the concept behind "breaking away" in this situation-- I just don't see the justification for it in the FAQ.

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The FAQ here seems to have been created with the idea that friendly ships were touching, and that if they continued flying straight or K-turning together on successive turns, they wouldn't be "bumping" even if it looked like a bump.

If friendly ships were both moving at the same speed, they were traveling the same distance across the board. If it looked liked the ships had "bumped", it was only due to human error, and FFG was trying to help the players to say it wasn't a bump.

That's my take on it! If FFG made a ruling, please direct me to the link! Thanks!

@Riddick84: here's my standard speech on "touching". It's an important state in the game with an unfortunately confusing name, so when I'm teaching the game I call it greeblezork instead.

If Ship A executes a maneuver that would overlap Ship B, you resolve the overlap by pulling Ship A back along the maneuver template and place it so that the base of Ship A is touching (in the usual, literal sense) the base of Ship B. Ships A and B are now greeblezork with respect to each other, and neither can attack the other. Ships A and B will remain greeblezork until one of them does something--executes a maneuver or performs an action--that leaves their bases are no longer touching.

But there are several ways for bases to be touching without the two ships being greeblezork. For instance, I can barrel roll backward until my base is in physical contact with yours, but that does not mean our ships are greeblezork. Renaming that state with a nonsense word allows us to talk about this important rule more clearly than FFG does: whether two bases are touching only matters if they are also greeblezork. And the only way to get into the greeblezork state is by executing a maneuver that would overlap.

Translating the FAQ rule, now, it actually just clarifies one of those corner cases. If Ships A and B are greeblezork at the start of the activation phase, and their bases are exactly parallel, and they execute the same straight maneuver, their bases will be touching, but there's no overlap, so they aren't greeblezork.

Hopefully that helps.