I'm wondering if this is covered under the stationary and bump faq.
Y wing lands a second ion on IG-2000.
Y-wing bumps into side of IG.
IG performs 1-forward but hits another ship before clearing the spot where the Y is touching.
Assuming the ship went straight forward(it should have) can the Y-wing take a shot or are they still legally in contact?
If a ship moves but remains touching, they are no longer considered touching. The FAQ, I believe, says that if a ship bumps and is directly behind the other, facing the same way, and they both perform, say, a straight 1 maneuver, they will still be in contact but do not count as touching for rules purposes.
If a ship moves but remains touching, they are no longer considered touching. The FAQ, I believe, says that if a ship bumps and is directly behind the other, facing the same way, and they both perform, say, a straight 1 maneuver, they will still be in contact but do not count as touching for rules purposes.
That's a completely different situation because in that case the ships did move so that they were no longer touching and thus could not become touching again without an overlap. In this situation, the ships never moved in such a way to be no longer touching. This debate has happened enough times that we just need to wait for an email response or FAQ update to answer it because it tends to go in circles...
If a ship moves but remains touching, they are no longer considered touching. The FAQ, I believe, says that if a ship bumps and is directly behind the other, facing the same way, and they both perform, say, a straight 1 maneuver, they will still be in contact but do not count as touching for rules purposes.
That's a completely different situation because in that case the ships did move so that they were no longer touching and thus could not become touching again without an overlap. In this situation, the ships never moved in such a way to be no longer touching. This debate has happened enough times that we just need to wait for an email response or FAQ update to answer it because it tends to go in circles...
Similarly, the situation arises with two Lambda shuttles. If they both perform stationary maneuvers, it works the same way. Neither one moves, but they are no longer considered touching
This topic has been hotly debated.
When I read the rules the only way to set up a "touching" situation that means something is via an overlap. The only way to maintain that without having another overlap is to perform the Stationary Maneuver. Attempting to perform any other type of maneuver and being blocked back to your starting position still means you performed that maneuver and did NOT perform the stationary maneuver which is specifically required to maintain "touching."
Yet another one for the new FAQ to cover
Similarly, the situation arises with two Lambda shuttles. If they both perform stationary maneuvers, it works the same way. Neither one moves, but they are no longer considered touching
I don't agree with that.
There's a FAQ ruling that states that a stationary maneuver has you maintain the "touching" state from the previous round.
[....]
Edit: Removes a bunch of stuff, all that was useless.
There are 2 FAQ entries pertinent to your statement :
Overlapping Inline Ships
Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they remain physically adjacent.
Touching and Stationary Maneuvers
If a model begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [ 0] maneuver, the ships are considered touching.
However, the only one that really applies is the second one I quoted.
The first one only applies to straight maneuvers, and the [0] maneuver is NOT a straight maneuver.
Therefore, supposing 2 Lambdas bumped in the previous round...
Nothing ever breaks the "touching" state.
Edited by Klutz
Similarly, the situation arises with two Lambda shuttles. If they both perform stationary maneuvers, it works the same way. Neither one moves, but they are no longer considered touching
I don't agree with that.
There's a FAQ ruling that states that a stationary maneuver has you maintain the "touching" state from the previous round.
[....]
Edit: Removes a bunch of stuff, all that was useless.
There are 2 FAQ entries pertinent to your statement :
Overlapping Inline Ships
Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they remain physically adjacent.
Touching and Stationary Maneuvers
If a model begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [ 0] maneuver, the ships are considered touching.
However, the only one that really applies is the second one I quoted.
The first one only applies to straight maneuvers, and the [0] maneuver is NOT a straight maneuver.
Therefore, supposing 2 Lambdas bumped in the previous round...
- Lambda 1 performs stationary maneuver. As per FAQ, "touching" state is maintained with Lambda 2.
- Lambda 2 performs stationary maneuver. As per FAQ, "touching" state is maintained with Lambda 1.
Nothing ever breaks the "touching" state.
Ahh. I hadn't seen that second entry until now. In that case, I'd have to agree with you and say they are still touching. Thanks for pointing that out.
Similarly, the situation arises with two Lambda shuttles. If they both perform stationary maneuvers, it works the same way. Neither one moves, but they are no longer considered touching
I don't agree with that.
There's a FAQ ruling that states that a stationary maneuver has you maintain the "touching" state from the previous round.
[....]
Edit: Removes a bunch of stuff, all that was useless.
There are 2 FAQ entries pertinent to your statement :
Overlapping Inline Ships
Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. If both ships are the same base size and execute the same unobstructed straight [ ] maneuver during the next round, the ships do not overlap each other and are not considered touching, even though they remain physically adjacent.
Touching and Stationary Maneuvers
If a model begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [ 0] maneuver, the ships are considered touching.
However, the only one that really applies is the second one I quoted.
The first one only applies to straight maneuvers, and the [0] maneuver is NOT a straight maneuver.
Therefore, supposing 2 Lambdas bumped in the previous round...
Nothing ever breaks the "touching" state.
- Lambda 1 performs stationary maneuver. As per FAQ, "touching" state is maintained with Lambda 2.
- Lambda 2 performs stationary maneuver. As per FAQ, "touching" state is maintained with Lambda 1.
Ahh. I hadn't seen that second entry until now. In that case, I'd have to agree with you and say they are still touching. Thanks for pointing that out.
Do you agree with the shuttle scenario or the OP remains touching?
In the OP the aggressor overlaps y-wing 2 in front of him and they are touching. However he no longer touches y-wing 1 to his side because he moved. I know this is debated elsewhere, but you pick up the ship and move it, then slide it backwards.
that does not turn the maneuver into a stationary maneuver, which is the only maneuver that can keep the touching state.
If you would argue that moving and sliding back to the original position is the same as a stationary maneuver, the a stressed x-wing moving 4 straight, overlapping and sliding back until it moved only 1 forward could be argued to be performing a green 1 and clear stress. Which we can probably all agree is completely invalid.
that does not turn the maneuver into a stationary maneuver, which is the only maneuver that can keep the touching state.
We don't actually know this. We do know that the stationary maintains touching; we don't actually know what happens with any other maneuver that results in no actual movement.
If you would argue that moving and sliding back to the original position is the same as a stationary maneuver, the a stressed x-wing moving 4 straight, overlapping and sliding back until it moved only 1 forward could be argued to be performing a green 1 and clear stress. Which we can probably all agree is completely invalid.
Uhm... Not sure if serious? There are so many things wrong with this particular straw man that it's better if we just set it on fire and pretend it never happened.
It's not really at question whether a non-stationary maneuver which results in no movement counts as stationary - it doesn't. Period. And I'm pretty sure that's not an argument that's being made. The maneuver still has the speed, difficulty, and bearing that was selected, and that's what was executed.
Nobody is arguing that it's the same as the stationary maneuver. The question is whether not moving counts as "moving away" enough to break touching. It really has nothing to do with stationary - a stationary maneuver could be an exception to a rule saying any executed maneuver breaks touching, or it could be an example of a maneuver that doesn't result in movement, and therefore maintains touching.
So please, at least try and understand the viewpoint of the other side. But if you're going to ignore it in favor of straw men, try not to make them so colossally silly.
Yeah, the problem is we don't know WHY the ruling on the stationary maneuver is what it is. Do the ships remain touching because of a special feature of that bearing,mor do they remain touching because there was no movement?
I was trying to examplify how wrong it is to equate an overlap that end you where you started with a stationary maneuver. Which IS what many people do in this debate (hence the title of this post)
People then try to apply the FAQ for stationary maneuver to a situation where you did not perform a statuinary maneuver.
It as long been the concensus on the forums that any movement that does not cause an overlap does not end you up touching, even though the ships are physicaly adjacent. This is based on the FAQ for Overlapping Inline Ships, and being able to baller role into physical contact. But all of a sudden people have the opposite view just because you end your move where you stared even though there is plently of movement involved in picking up the ship and moving it to the other end of the template, then sliding it back along the template after determining that you would overlap another ship.
The next FAQ can't arrive too soon....
It as long been the concensus on the forums that any movement that does not cause an overlap does not end you up touching, even though the ships are physicaly adjacent.
Nobody questions this. The question is not what it takes to become touching, but what is required to STOP touching. At the moment, we have one sentence to provide guidance on that: As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies. So what constitutes "moves away"?
But all of a sudden people have the opposite view just because you end your move where you stared even though there is plently of movement involved in picking up the ship and moving it to the other end of the template, then sliding it back along the template after determining that you would overlap another ship.
(Aside: Nobody has taken the "opposite view". Everyone (or most, at least) involved in this debate understand what it takes to create a "touching" situation. The question, as I say above, is when that state ends. It's disconcerting, to say the least, that you either don't understand that or aren't willing to state the disagreement honestly).
While you (and, admittedly, others) consider the "backing up" part of executing a maneuver to be movement, I don't think the rules agree with you. There are several rulings which clearly indicate that a ship which "backs up" due to a collision doesn't actually proceed past its final point. Moving during the backing-up process is not "moving", any more than overlapping during that process is actually "overlapping" (as the Anti-Pursuit Lasers ruling indicates). "Move" and "overlap" are used in the physical sense, not the game sense. We know this conclusively for "overlap" (thanks again to the APL ruling) - can you provide any evidence that the opposite is true for "move"?
This should probably be FAQ'd. I've been flying a bunch of warthogs and the situation comes up a LOT with those ships.
In a game against a decimator it sometimes happens more than once.
Here are my thoughts on the subject, from an older thread...
I'd be quite interested to know how you'd handle these 4 scenarios, Buhalin.
Especially scenarios C and D, since, in both cases, the Firespray's final resting position is the same as it's initial position.
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Here are 4 scenarios, which all result in the same final ship positions on the boards.
In each case, the Firespray is obviously considered to be touching the red A-Wing.
However, the question I'm asking for each scenario is:
After having performed it's maneuver, is the Firespray considered to be touching the blue A-Wing?
My current interpretation of the rules is as follows:
Scenario A) Firespray is NOT considered to be touching the blue A-Wing.
My logic here is that, the following steps take place as the Firespray performs it's maneuver:
Scenario B) Firespray is NOT considered to be touching the blue A-Wing.
Same logic as in scenario A, except that, before the Firespray's maneuver, the Firespray is touching both A-Wings.
The final result is the same: Firespray is touching red A-Wing, but not touching blue A-Wing.
The fact that the final position of the Firespray is the same as it's initial position does NOT prevent the fact that the Firespray was picked up, overlapped the red A-Wing and place back in position.
Scenario C) Firespray is NOT considered to be touching the blue A-Wing.
Same logic as Scenario B.
Scenario D) Firespray IS considered to be touching the blue A-Wing.
We have a specific FAQ entry for this scenario, however, per my interpretation, the FAQ entry is unnecessary. The rule regarding the 0 maneuver is sufficient:
"To execute the [0] maneuver, the active player leaves the ship where it is, keeping its position and facing unchanged."
The ship is never picked up, and therefore the "touching" state is never broken.
Here is a step-by-step break down similar to what I did for scenario A:
Agreed with your examples the first time Klutz and it looks like I still agree with them.
I know if you really wanted to illustrate some of it even more you could start the situation with the Red A-Wing a little bit in front of the Firespray. When the Firespray attempts it's one straight it will run into the Red A and then get pushed back the same track to almost the same position it started in. Is anyone going to argue that the Blue A remains touching in that scenario? That Blue A-Wing will still be in the same close proximity it would have been had the Firespray moves forward no space. If the Firespray was going to touch the Blue A Wing it would need to overlap it which would mean trying to move it back even more except there is no template to move it back along.
I know if you really wanted to illustrate some of it even more you could start the situation with the Red A-Wing a little bit in front of the Firespray. When the Firespray attempts it's one straight it will run into the Red A and then get pushed back the same track to almost the same position it started in.
That's my "Scenario A" 
Blue A-Wing performs its maneuver, overlaps Firespray and ends its maneuver touching it.
Red A-Wing performs its maneuver as normal, does not overlap anything.
Firespray attempts a 1-straight, overlaps red A-Wing, and ends its maneuver touching it.
I don't think it is quite your situation A. Ok, maybe it is but the diagram is doing it a disservice but that is probably because the images are all the same yet may not reflect exactly the same time.
I don't think it is quite your situation A. Ok, maybe it is but the diagram is doing it a disservice but that is probably because the images are all the same yet may not reflect exactly the same time.
I briefly considered making an animated gif of each scenario... But then decided I had a life to live 
The image represents the final position of ships at the end of the activation phase.
I don't think it is quite your situation A. Ok, maybe it is but the diagram is doing it a disservice but that is probably because the images are all the same yet may not reflect exactly the same time.
I briefly considered making an animated gif of each scenario... But then decided I had a life to live
The image represents the final position of ships at the end of the activation phase.
I probably read them better the first time you posted them. In the context of maintaining a 'touching' position I am just thinking that having the starting positions could also be helpful. Of course that takes more time and space and may not do much for some parties.
The picture I recall seeing where this mattered would have had contacts happening along the front of the Firespray. It may have been possible to clear those touching contacts but then some blocking would have eventually pushed the Firespray back to its starting spot with the last ship it rolls off being the one it had previously been touching.
The picture I recall seeing where this mattered would have had contacts happening along the front of the Firespray. It may have been possible to clear those touching contacts but then some blocking would have eventually pushed the Firespray back to its starting spot with the last ship it rolls off being the one it had previously been touching.
That's Scenario B! 
Both A-Wings overlap the FS, Red ends up in front and Blue to the side.
FS attempts 1-straight, can't clear Red and ends up in the same position as before.
The picture I recall seeing where this mattered would have had contacts happening along the front of the Firespray. It may have been possible to clear those touching contacts but then some blocking would have eventually pushed the Firespray back to its starting spot with the last ship it rolls off being the one it had previously been touching.
That's Scenario B!
Both A-Wings overlap the FS, Red ends up in front and Blue to the side.
FS attempts 1-straight, can't clear Red and ends up in the same position as before.
I must be getting tunnel vision looking at the same picture over and over again. Actually, situation B isn't what I was thinking although it is a little bit closer. It would be more like this:
Blue A-Wing performs maneuver and overlaps Firespray from the front corner moving in diagonally (so it is both in front of and beside the Firespray: think a 45 degree contact). Red A-Wing performs maneuver and ends up in front of Firespray but not overlapping. Firespray then performs 1-straight. This would clear Blue A-Wing but overlap Red A-Wing. Moving Firespray back will get it to the point of touching Red A but at this point it is overlapping Blue A-Wing. This causes it to move back even further after getting off of the Blue A-Wing.
Here there is no contact with the Red A-Wing although overlapping it started moving the Firespray back. Because the Blue A-Wing was the final ship to be overlapped it is the one the Firespray will be considered touching.
I guess another variation could see two ships overlap the Firespray's front side before it gets to act. In this case it WILL overlap both ships and still be touching them once it moves back to its starting spot. This should only happen to ships touching the Firespray's front edge when it begins it's maneuver as those ships will get overlapped again and remain touching .
Here's a fun one...
Imagine the Firespray with A-wings on 3 sides - a Prototype on the Left, a Prototype in Front, and Tycho to the right (all facing straight towards the Firespray).
All 4 ships do 1 ahead moves. What's the result?
Here's a fun one...
Imagine the Firespray with A-wings on 3 sides - a Prototype on the Left, a Prototype in Front, and Tycho to the right (all facing straight towards the Firespray).
All 4 ships do 1 ahead moves. What's the result?
It's all going to depend on the order.
If that is the starting description you start out with both Prototypes crashing into the Firespray. After that I'm going to assume the Firespray tries to make it's maneuver (clearing contacts) but doesn't clear the prototype in front resulting in an overlap and pushing it back to the clear space it just left; prototype in front and Firespray are touching. Now I'll assume Tycho goes and runs into the side of the Firespray/overlaps before backing off and being left in a 'touching' state; if Tycho acted before the Firespray then he's in the same situation as the prototype on the left is in.
The prototype on the left gets a shoot but no one else will assuming of course that the prototype of the left is out of the Firespray's arcs.
I guess we are left with one big question however: how are those A-Wings doing 1-straights? Ionized is the most reasonable reason.
Edited by StevenO