Didn't ffg do a space hulk card game?

Privateer press does a game i find scratches my space hulk itch called Level 7 omega protocol. I'm greedily awaiting my delivery of imperial assault but between those two games GW can reprint the same old space hulk all they like.

I've heard very good things about Level & Omega, with many people saying it surpasses SH

But that's kind of my point - GW had a 20 year head start with a sci-fi dungeon crawler miniatures game that even to this day micturates over most, if not all of it's competition, but can they be bothered to really do anything with it? Heck you aren't even allowed to play it in GW stores.

If it's really that much of a burden for GW to support one of their most iconic and best-loved games, why don't they relieve themselves of that burden - licence the game and collect a cheque every quarter for doing nothing

I could write pages upon pages detailing all the problems with GW, but I won't as that would take me all day. I want to go back to the list as I'm really surprised that both Star Trek Attack Wing and D&D Attack wing made the list. I would not have called that at all, but rather I would have bet that Warhammer Fantasy or Flames of War would have taken those spots.

I'm sure I can remember recently reading that GW have licensed someone else to do re-releases of some of their old specialist games.

To be fair gorkamorka was fraking awful.

I never played it so I can't tell if it was good or bad as a game. I do know however that it did wonders for the Orks in terms of overall design. The aesthetics found in GorkaMorka served as the base of the next (third 40k edition) codex and subsequent codices hasn't really left that behind.

Didn't ffg do a space hulk card game?

Privateer press does a game i find scratches my space hulk itch called Level 7 omega protocol. I'm greedily awaiting my delivery of imperial assault but between those two games GW can reprint the same old space hulk all they like.

I've heard very good things about Level & Omega, with many people saying it surpasses SH

But that's kind of my point - GW had a 20 year head start with a sci-fi dungeon crawler miniatures game that even to this day micturates over most, if not all of it's competition, but can they be bothered to really do anything with it? Heck you aren't even allowed to play it in GW stores.

If it's really that much of a burden for GW to support one of their most iconic and best-loved games, why don't they relieve themselves of that burden - licence the game and collect a cheque every quarter for doing nothing

It is a blast to play there are some drawbacks though, one being some of the miniatures are a bit on the bendy side. But defiantly surpasses space hulk.

I enjoy Deadzone too I use that game as my Necromunda replacement.

It is a blast to play there are some drawbacks though, one being some of the miniatures are a bit on the bendy side. But defiantly surpasses space hulk.

I enjoy Deadzone too I use that game as my Necromunda replacement.

well most of my SH kit is at least 20 years old - so a fair bit of it is on the snappy/faded/crumpled side

To be fair gorkamorka was fraking awful.

I never played it so I can't tell if it was good or bad as a game. I do know however that it did wonders for the Orks in terms of overall design. The aesthetics found in GorkaMorka served as the base of the next (third 40k edition) codex and subsequent codices hasn't really left that behind.

The problem with G/M was it was a massively niche appeal.

You took 70 per cent of the GW market (4ok players)

the you took about 5 per cent of that (ork players)

And made a game where all the 'gangs' except muties were essentially the same, in fact the two main protagonists being essentially the same was the joke.

Thats why it didnt sell well.

It was the same game as necromunda but...

necromunda took the 70 per cent of 40k players, and from that appealed to the 70s per cent of Imperial players, while still appealing to undead players (scavvvies) and other niches.

This really should be in Off Topic though if a mod could move it?

This really should be in Off Topic though if a mod could move it?

...at which point no one new will see it and it dies off. There's a reason I wasn't in the crowd chanting for more subforums.

You seemed to be in the minority at the time though. Most people with an interest broader than the immediate game seem to peruse off topic.

This really should be in Off Topic though if a mod could move it?

...at which point no one new will see it and it dies off. There's a reason I wasn't in the crowd chanting for more subforums.

What are you talking about? The OT forum sees continual, lively discussions. The additional sub forums have improved this board immeasurably.

Oh, and I have been meaning to mention, the squad list forum has now, in just a couple months, surpassed the number of threads the battle report forum too 2 years to get.

When i worked in GW marketing up to about 2005, GW had a 90 per cent chunk of the 'wargames' market share.

Thats a lot.

even the least popular GW line sells more than the best seller of any other company.

GW have a massive highstreet presence and even if they have one 'bricks and mortar' store in a country its probably one more than any other company has.

Im overjoyed xwing is doing really well but I cant see it coming close to beating citadel/GW in sales for a long long time.

Getting back on topic...

It's true that in some ways it's hard to imagine GW ever not being on top. Warhammer is huge. In the UK it is a venerable cultural institution unlike anything in the US. It has its own chain of stores. It's hard to imagine beating this.

BUT...

(1) That's mostly in the UK. Warhammer is definitely popular in the US, but based on my travels it seems that this popularity varies strongly by region, and is slowly declining in most places. (All 40K players in my area now play Warmachine). Note that, for what its worth, the ICV2 ranking is based on surveys of US distributors and game stores.

(2) Star Wars is also a major international cultural institution too - one that is much larger than Warhammer. And Star Wars is an institution that is now under the control of Disney, who is going to push and expand it in ways we've never seen before. Disney and FFG appear to be tight with each other, which is awesome.

(3) X-Wing is unlike Warhammer in that it appeals to both diehard wargamers, as well as general tabletop gamers who have no interest in modeling. I get the impression that roughly half of X-Wing players have some history playing other wargames. The other half do not, and would never consider hobbyist minis gaming. It's much easier to get new players into X-Wing than Warhammer or Warmachine.

(4) FFG supports formal competitive play, while GW famously does not. People LOVE this. This is one of the reasons Magic has persisted so long, I think.

In sum, I think if any minis game is going to dethrone 40k, X-Wing is perhaps best poised to do it. With pre-painted minis, low cost, direct tie-in to the huge expanding cross-generational cultural phenomenon that is Star Wars, assured longevity due to fresh new material from movies, comics, and cartoons, a formal international competitive circuit, and new infusion of cash and international distribution networks from Asmodee... Yeah... things look good!

If FFG plays its cards right, and doesn't keeping messing up with supply stream issues, X-Wing could have a very rich life ahead of it.

I will put it simply all the money i give FFG for Xwing previously went to GW.

bottom line, Star Wars is huge, FFG took this brand and is making a killing. I hope they continue to put out more product for star wars.

GW had a great run, Rogue trader was fun times and got me hooked, 2nd edition was OK, If I remember correctly I think 3rd edition was hero hammer, where your heroes could wipe out entire armies on their own. then they regressed to simplify the game for little kids, now they have created this horrible codex hammer gotta buy $80 miniatures and models to play the **** game.

im glad I sold my 40k stuff to buy more xwing.

Wait, wait, wait... There are other miniature games? I thought all the others died out in the 90s.

I never understood the appeal of 40K personally. I just don't much care for the sort of sci-fantasy style of it. I like my war-games historical and involving airplanes if at all. X-wing is my one exception because starfighters are basically airplanes that are made cooler with laser beams. Also, I suck at modeling and painting (I was too busy slapping them together to re-enact dogfights to actually paint them, that or playing flight sims), so having them already painted and assembled is pretty much a must-have feature for a game as far as I'm concerned. Though, hiring people to repaint them also appeals.

This really should be in Off Topic though if a mod could move it?

Oh, I don't know. The performance of the X-Wing game in the market seems on topic to me. After all, no performing, no game. No game, and I has a lot of sads.

Having been to Warhammer World in Nottingham and seeing the corporate offices, etc. I have to say I don't openly root against GW because most of the people I talked to were awesome. Fanatical, would probably be the best word to descibe some employees lol. While I was there, I voiced a lot of the major concerns Warhammer players have for GW... the overwhelming response; "that's the cost of doing business in this kind of model"...

Hopefully PP or FFG does overtake GW... then, maybe then it will force some serious "re-branding."

You know, i believe you they honestly think so, but their ex-customers like myself and soon-to-be ex-customers don't see it this way. And that's for sure.

They basically want to have 100% control over everything from designing to spoilers to sales, to pricing to retail. This is not bad per se, just that if they make mistakes they don't see it and won't let anybody else get some insight or even give them advice. It's basically absolutism... And asolutely not a good idea.

I was a good customer and spent money on GW products. I am a nerd i guess and ready to spend a lot of money on a good product. Warhammer still has a really good product, but the attitude they take towards anyone from customers to vendors is just a slap in the face. The price policy they are practicing is just the pinnacle for all that they are failing at rirht now!

So i am done with Warhammer and GWand i would gladly see them being overtaken by FFG or Privateer. Let's just hope that they finally come to reason when someone beats them at their own business that does not work with their methods!

I’m really surprised that the list doesn’t include Battlefront’s Flames of War, granted that it doesn’t have the best minis, although they’ve been releasing recently some awesome new plastic kits and it is a very good game, but then again it could be just my perspective based on my area and circle of friends.

The gaming/miniatures share in my area has changed a lot in past few years, when I started in this back in 2002, GW had the sole control of the market, 40K and even Fantasy dominated the gaming tables for years and out of the blue Warmachine/Hordes came and started to gather players, then Flames of War did the same and now X-Wing; I don’t think I walked away from WHFB or 40K just from one day to the other, it was more like a divorce building up over years, prices had a lot to do with it, but I also got tired of the rules and its multiple interpretations; in the other hand I still love their minis, although I haven’t bought a single one in years, I drool for them every time I’m at my FLGS (I like to paint, a lot); from time to time I still get my GW fix with Mordheim with an on-going campaign we have in our club.

In the past couple of years the owners of my hobby budget are definitely XWing and FoW, right in that order, FoW gets me with the historical part of it and X-Wing does it from the minis, the rules and of course it’s based on Star Wars (and the community rules!)

But it is being sold as an army, I could of as easily referenced last month's necron deal it's pretty much the same case.

£500 is a ridiculous amount to pay for an introduction to the hobby, GW turned its back on the veterans thinking they spent less than kids just entering and that tactic has backfired badly because it's not a hobby you can do with pocket money anymore.

I was the first in my group to give up on 40k when 7th came out, I see it as a cash grab edition that was put out not to fix issues with 6th but to pad out the financial report, it's taken awhile but others are coming around to the same conclusion.

They were going to switch to fantasy but now we know the new edition is turning it into a skirmish game and squating the armies they've spent years collecting their totally done with GW.

GW has made their bed now they get to sleep uncomfortably in it.

Necrons and Space Clowns are nowhere near the same in terms of army composition, so it would have been foolish to reference the former. You seem to be confusing GW's recent business model - pushing web bundles with very modest savings - with products that are actually required to play the game. Just because they want to sell it to you that way doesn't mean you need it. And £500 for "an introduction to the hobby"? Yes, that would be ridiculous, if you couldn't spend significantly less for an actual introduction, let alone individual products if you so desired. 40k has a high barrier of entry if you're jumping straight into 1500 or 2000+ point games, but the boxed campaign sets they market every year or so are actually great deals for beginners.

Harlequins are designed to augment a player's current Eldar / Dark Eldar army, which should be more or less obvious to anyone who's seen the all-formation release (there aren't even any HQs to compose a standard CAD). The only people buying £500 worth of product at a time are already devoted customers, so your observations are more than a little off base. I'm genuinely forced to wonder how much you really know about 40k, or if you're simply just biased against GW.

...the boxed campaign sets they market every year or so are actually great deals for beginners.

How great? Serious question. I have zero painting experience and don't know anyone who plays Warhammer, but the thing that's kept me out of both 40K and Warmachine in the past is the pretty hefty price tag that seems to be associated with any kind of flexibility in building a force.

$130 for a pair of ~500-700 point armies and a rulebook, more than enough for two people to play. I bought the most recent one and sold the Tyranid half on ebay, reducing my total price point down to nearly $60. The rulebooks that come with the boxed sets go for $30 on the 'bay, if one doesn't feel like springing for the larger $80 one. All in all it's a very good deal, and a good way to get started with the game.

But it is being sold as an army, I could of as easily referenced last month's necron deal it's pretty much the same case.£500 is a ridiculous amount to pay for an introduction to the hobby, GW turned its back on the veterans thinking they spent less than kids just entering and that tactic has backfired badly because it's not a hobby you can do with pocket money anymore.I was the first in my group to give up on 40k when 7th came out, I see it as a cash grab edition that was put out not to fix issues with 6th but to pad out the financial report, it's taken awhile but others are coming around to the same conclusion.They were going to switch to fantasy but now we know the new edition is turning it into a skirmish game and squating the armies they've spent years collecting their totally done with GW.GW has made their bed now they get to sleep uncomfortably in it.

Necrons and Space Clowns are nowhere near the same in terms of army composition, so it would have been foolish to reference the former. You seem to be confusing GW's recent business model - pushing web bundles with very modest savings - with products that are actually required to play the game. Just because they want to sell it to you that way doesn't mean you need it. And £500 for "an introduction to the hobby"? Yes, that would be ridiculous, if you couldn't spend significantly less for an actual introduction, let alone individual products if you so desired. 40k has a high barrier of entry if you're jumping straight into 1500 or 2000+ point games, but the boxed campaign sets they market every year or so are actually great deals for beginners. Harlequins are designed to augment a player's current Eldar / Dark Eldar army, which should be more or less obvious to anyone who's seen the all-formation release (there aren't even any HQs to compose a standard CAD). The only people buying £500 worth of product at a time are already devoted customers, so your observations are more than a little off base. I'm genuinely forced to wonder how much you really know about 40k, or if you're simply just biased against GW.

There's exactly zero saving on those bundles they just lump stuff together and let people with more money than sense one click buy, which is why people get 20% off buying from weyland games and other third party sites only a mug buys from gw direct.

More over their boxed deals are about selling kits that don't sell on their own, on the surface it looks like a deal then you actually look in the codex and realise why they don't sell.

Also 2000pts is the standard size for a game these days it hasn't been 1k since 2004, so yeah that 1500 point force is a starter set in terms of modern 40k.

As for what I know I've played it for 20 years and made many friends amongst the store staff so I'm well versed in the difference between the public face of things and what staff get told, also I've never hidden my contempt for how gw has been acting of late here or on warseer, they are actively destroying their own company by systematically alienating customers and using a screwed pricing method.

They had a stranglehold in the mid 00`s with a wide selection of fun games and they threw it away by focusing on the main three.

I just wish they'd license out a few of their old titles

Just think what someone like FFG could do with Space Hulk - create some real depth and expansions rather than drag it out as a cash cow that they can milk every 5 years or so and completely ignore it in the intervening years

I second this.

A new modern Hero Quest, yes please

A new modern Space Crusade, hells yes, try and keep me away from that...

New BFG ships...

New Necrumunda...

That list goes on

No dollars. Hard to say if that is meaningful.

Very true. But it's also true that this is what everyone said before Pathfinder began outselling D&D during the decline of 4th edition.

Fourth Edition was a perfectly good hybrid of roleplaying and tactical combat--in other words, a pretty good reproduction of the core conceit of D&D--that Wizards of the Coast wrecked through some frankly stupid management practices.

• They cut off support for the Open Game License, creating an incentive for players to stick with D20.
• They failed to support the release with consistent, high-quality in-game fiction.
• They repeatedly slipped and fell with their online support.
• They started hedging and backtracking on the system in less than two years, with the "Essentials" line.
• The Fourth Edition material they did release post-Essentials suffered from lax oversight and inconsistent design, which in turn led to material of widely varying quality and power levels.
• The game suffered overall from a focus on cost-cutting and the use of freelancers rather than in--house designers.

This is relevant to the thread topic, I promise! GW is hemorrhaging customers for most of the same reasons: their support for the game is erratic, they're more expensive than their competitors for a product that's not of clearly better quality, the design offers wildly varying power levels, and (from a complete outsider's perspective) they seem to be parceling out updates piecemeal rather than keeping an eye on the big picture.

They could clean house, clean up their act, start charging based on the product's cost + margin rather than what they think they can gouge, and get a lot of customers back. They won't do that, for the same reasons WotC didn't, but they could. So they don't have to be overtaken by FFG and probably by Privateer soon, but they will.

I'm one of the 20 people who prefer 4th edition.