Not as much a question as a topic of discussion. While using autothrusters against a YT-1300 we ended up in a situation. I was on the border of his firing arc, one corner in, the rest out. Measuring the arc yielded range 3 while it was range 2 corner to corner. Technically I was in his firing ar , but he needed to use the turret to get range 2. The way I see it is that you either attack with the turret, which triggers autothrusters, or you attack with the firing arc, which would also trigger the autothrusters due to being range 3, but it is not impossible that both conditions are met if you combine it, meaning I am in arc and at range 2. We callez in the TO who ruled that autothrusters would activate.

What do you think?

The attacker is obliged to select the firing arc which represents the shortest distance between the bases of the two ships - closest point to closest point.

He cannot select a different firing solution just because it favours a particular upgrade or weapon

Range is closest point to closest point, regardless of the arc, and even on ship without a turret. So the yt was at range 2, and in arc.

The way you put it means that you can negate autothrusters by clipping the enemy ship with your firing arc even though the shot technically occurs outside the arc.

Range is closest point to closest point, regardless of the arc, and even on ship without a turret. So the yt was at range 2, and in arc.

Not true.

The firing solution is closest to closest point WHITHIN your arc of fire. Ships without turrets can't measure attack range outside their firing arc.

For turreted weapons, it MUST be closest to closest point, since they can fire outside arc.

So, in the OP's example, the target is at range 3 in arc (if it doesn't use the turret)... Or at range 2 out of arc if he uses the turret. Both firing solutions activate autothrusters, as the OP correctly pointed.

see here

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/132592-in-arc-but-shooting-out-of-arc/?hl=%2Brange+%2Bturret

FAQ:

If a ship attacks an enemy ship with a turret weapon and
the defender is also inside its firing arc, can the attacker
choose to measure range using the rules for its firing arc
instead of the rules for a turret weapon?
A: No. When attacking with a turret weapon (including a 360-degree primary
turret), range is always measured from the closest point to the closest point.

Similar, but it does prove the attack is at closest to closest range, even though the in-arc range is different.

Hello Sergovan,

In response to your rules question:
Rule Question:
How does a YT-1300, with a ship in arc at range 2 and out of arc at range 1 (with closest point to closest point being at range 1) resolve Tactician and Outmaneuver.

Please see thread "Turrets, Outmaneuver, and Tactician".

The issue arrises from Tactician itself since the initial clause is a bit ambiguous (“After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2”). It is unclear whether the attack needed to be inside of your firing arc, whether the attack needed to be at Range 2, simply the ship attacked needs to be both at Range 2 and inside your firing arc, or something else entirely. The intention is that the attack performed was a not at Range 1 or Range 3 but explicitly Range 2 and that that ship was inside of the attacker’s firing arc.

Therefore, to answer your question: if a YT-1300 equipped with Tactician and Outmaneuver is attacks an enemy ship at Range 2 (when measured inside of the firing arc) and at Range 1 (when measured closest point to closest point, not inside the firing arc), Tactician would not trigger and Outmaneuver could trigger (so long as the YT-1300 is outside of the defender’s firing arc).

You may treat Tactician as though it said “After you perform an attack against an enemy ship at Range 2, if that ship was inside your firing arc, it receives 1 stress token."

This is reverting my previous reasoning for my answer to Tactician although keeps mostly the same resolution. In fact, it removes an artifact from the previous ruling. This means that for a YT-1300 equipped with Tactician and Outmaneuver that is attacking a ship that is at Range 2 and straddling the firing arc, Tactician would still trigger (even if the closest point to closest point is drawn outside of the firing arc) and Outmaneuver could still trigger. With the previous ruling, it actually “punished” turret primary weapon ships for having this setup since another ship in the exact same situation would have been able to use both abilities.

Thanks for asking,

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

I see that this ruling makes sense, but it still feels intuitively wrong. Autothrusters is supposed to help you if you are either out of arc or at long range, but it doesn't help you if you are in between. I do believe you are correct treybert, but I still wish to speak to FFG about this as it might be something they haven't considered.

Totally counter-intuitive ad-hoc response from a developer, overrrides common sense, of course.

I'll not be the one who punish turreted ships. No dear lord....

I see that this ruling makes sense, but it still feels intuitively wrong. Autothrusters is supposed to help you if you are either out of arc or at long range, but it doesn't help you if you are in between. I do believe you are correct treybert, but I still wish to speak to FFG about this as it might be something they haven't considered.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you explain again?

The ruling says if the shortest distance between an attacking YT-1300 and the defender is out of arc, the defender is considered out of arc. It's a clear, unambiguous ruling that's easy to apply on the table, so it meets my personal criteria for a good rules judgment.

I see that this ruling makes sense, but it still feels intuitively wrong. Autothrusters is supposed to help you if you are either out of arc or at long range, but it doesn't help you if you are in between. I do believe you are correct treybert, but I still wish to speak to FFG about this as it might be something they haven't considered.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you explain again?

The ruling says if the shortest distance between an attacking YT-1300 and the defender is out of arc, the defender is considered out of arc. It's a clear, unambiguous ruling that's easy to apply on the table, so it meets my personal criteria for a good rules judgment.

No, that's precisely what the ruling doesn't say.

Providing I understood it well (because it's counter-intuitive as hell), what the rule says is that range is calculated by the line of fire, but arc is checked by the absolute miniature position. Then, you sum all the variants to see how the different conditions on the pertinent upgrade card are met.

So, in the OP's example, you calculate shot's range (closest to closest) and nets a result range of 2. Then, you check arc... And at range 3, you have a little corner of your base showing into the arc at range 3, so you are considered 'IN arc'.

Thus, you check autothrusters' conditions and the shot is made at range 2... Fail, and because that little corner, you are considered in the fire arc of the enemy ... Fail again.

Autothrusters end doing absolutely nothing for you. Both conditions fail. The shot is at range 2, and you are in the enemy's fire arc.

The 'logical' or, let's say... the 'intuitive' way of thinking, would be that all the variables and calculations of the attack are made according to the line of fire... But apparently, that unfairly punished turreted ships, given how they always have been in dire need of help. (Yes, it's a drop of sarcasm).

The measurement is made from closest point of the attacker's base to the closest point of the defender's base - in the OP's case, that line is a) at range 2 and b) outside of the firing arc (which is fine for a turret ship). Autothrusters should work because the line of fire is out of arc, which matches up with the email from FFG above.

Pretty sure auto thrusters would not work, because he is in arc, and range two. Just because range two happens out of arc doesn't change the fact that he is in it. That's what the frank ruling says, I believe.

The measurement is made from closest point of the attacker's base to the closest point of the defender's base - in the OP's case, that line is a) at range 2 and b) outside of the firing arc (which is fine for a turret ship). Autothrusters should work because the line of fire is out of arc, which matches up with the email from FFG above.

Nope, you're reading it wrong.

More people need to read the FAQ entry Icareane posted...

FAQ:

If a ship attacks an enemy ship with a turret weapon and the defender is also inside its firing arc, can the attacker choose to measure range using the rules for its firing arc instead of the rules for a turret weapon?

A: No. When attacking with a turret weapon (including a 360-degree primary turret), range is always measured from the closest point to the closest point.

Basically what this says (and it is the same thing Frank's email says) is:

Determining range and in/out of arc are 2 independent processes, which do not rely on the same "attack line" drawn from the attacker to the defender.

• You determine if a ship is in/out of arc by checking if any part of that ships base is inside the firing arc.
• You determine range by measuring along the shortest valid line between the 2 ships.

By "valid line", I mean a line that respects the (aux.) firing arc for a "normal" ship/attack, and that disregards the firing arc for a turreted ship/attack.

The 'logical' or, let's say... the 'intuitive' way of thinking

Those two things have nothing to do with each other in this case.

would be that all the variables and calculations of the attack are made according to the line of fire.

That is not what the rules say, so it is not logical to think they should work in some other way.

It is a check of each condition, then applied to the effect for resolution:

Range check (point to point) = range 2

Arc Check (in arc) Yes/No = Yes

Shot is at range 2 in arc. Autothrusters fails to activate.

I see that this ruling makes sense, but it still feels intuitively wrong. Autothrusters is supposed to help you if you are either out of arc or at long range, but it doesn't help you if you are in between. I do believe you are correct treybert, but I still wish to speak to FFG about this as it might be something they haven't considered.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you explain again?

The ruling says if the shortest distance between an attacking YT-1300 and the defender is out of arc, the defender is considered out of arc. It's a clear, unambiguous ruling that's easy to apply on the table, so it meets my personal criteria for a good rules judgment.

No, that's precisely what the ruling doesn't say.

You're right, here, and I'm wrong.

Providing I understood it well (because it's counter-intuitive as hell)...

Yeah, no kidding.

It's certainly a bit counterintuitive, but the "use the line" raised all sorts of other problem cases, like whether a ship can ignore the turret, etc. Once you get that they're separate checks, it's actually very easy to evaluate.

It's certainly a bit counterintuitive, but the "use the line" raised all sorts of other problem cases, like whether a ship can ignore the turret, etc. Once you get that they're separate checks, it's actually very easy to evaluate.

Yeah, it makes more sense now that people have explained like I'm five.

Apparently I've been doing this wrong for months, though, which is disturbing because I'm pretty careful about the rules.

The two checks are just independent of the other.

Arc is always "is any part of the enemy ship within your firing arc?"

The range check on the other hand depends on the type of weapon being used. Primary and non-turret/"outside your arc" Secondaries always measure range by the closest point within the printed firing arc. Turret Primaries and Secondaries always check range against the closest point.

Once you wrap your head around the fact they don't actually have anything to do with each other, the rulings and interactions make sense.