I've been thinking about these to guys recently, which is tough for me, because I haven't really flown either one of them any significant amount. I wanted to at least theorize a bit about, however, about how and when you might use one vs the other. They share a number of similarities that makes this an interesting comparison: In their basic forms, they're both close to 30 points, and they each have a number of really excellent upgrades that can push them into the mid-30's. The more loaded form is the one I'd like to compare, because they're more directly related. The question I'd like to explore in more depth is in what situation do you take one vs the other? "Take both" is a reasonable answer, but this question is assuming you're only taking one. I think a lot of this is stuff people already know, but I'm just laying it all out here to be as thorough as possible for myself.

Soontir Fel 27

Royal Guard Interceptor title 0

PTL 3

Autothrusters 2

Shield Upgrade 4

36 total squad points

vs

Darth Vader 29

TIE/x1 tite 0

Advanced Targeting Computer 1

Engine Upgrade 4

35 total squad points

First off, there's some flexibility here. Fel can change his second modification to Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade to save a point and change his defense profile. Vader still has an EPT and, if you wish, a Missile slot to fill. There's a number of comparisons that are independent of these things, however. I'll start there:

Piloting Skill: PS9 is PS9. It's a magic number in this game. Vader can use his EPT to get ahead here.

Actions: Both have 2 actions, and rely on their two actions, so blocking them can be very bad. They have the same set of actions available in their bar, with the exception of Target Lock with Vader. Fel effectively gets a free Focus from the stress of his every-turn usage of PTL.

Movement: In raw dial options, the Interceptor has better K-turns (if you'd ever use them) and the great 1-turn. The Advanced has the useful 1-bank. The 1-bank isn't as useful as the 1-turn overall, but is pretty good. In the above formats, both have Boost and Barrel Roll options. In terms of practical dial options, Baron Fel's is somewhat more limited because of the need to pull green maneuvers to clear stress. Consequently, Fel can pull more maneuvers in a pinch, but Vader is probably less predictable overall. Fel can also usually spare more actions for post-movement re-positioning because of his free Focus token.

Offense: The Interceptor has 3 red dice, and they will frequently be modified by a Focus token. Getting 4 dice at close range is usually not difficult with Baron Fel's numerous movement actions. The Advanced has 2 red dice, but ATC effectively gives another, always-critical-hit red die if a Target Lock is present. This makes for some complex comparison between the two.

-If targets are switching every turn or so, because they're either being destroyed or the pilots are in a knife-fight and a different target presents itself each turn, the high native attack of the Interceptor is substantially better. It doesn't require the additional Target Lock action to activate. In such a situation, Soontir Fel finds himself with an effective three actions vs Vader's one, if Vader hopes to keep his offense up. Soontir Fel with a Focus has an expected number of hits of 2.25/3 (range 2-3/range 1), while Vader has an expected number of hits of 2/2.5 if no Focus token is spent, and 2.5/3.5 if Focus is spent to boost the attack. Vader always guarantees a crit result as well.

-If a single main target is focused on over several turns, such as a ship with large hit points or a high defense small ship, the Action cost for ATC becomes less significant. This makes Vader more freely able to use an action to boost his Attack, substantially pushing it ahead of Soontir.

-Additional upgrades allow Vader to substantially increase his offense. The excellent Predator EPT is a common example, and increases his output in both switching and focused target situations. Furthermore, a Missile upgrade can add some options. A Proton Rocket can be fire by Vader and almost guarantee 5 hits at range 1. An Ion Pulse Missile can significantly reduce movement options of your opponent, and a Concussion Missile is a nearly guaranteed 4 hits in the opening engagement. Ordnance is generally not worth the points in this game, but if it's worth it on anyone, Darth Vader is that anyone. His high PS and dual actions make it extremely reliable.

Defense: Both the Interceptor and TIE Advanced have 3 green dice. The Advanced has an extra shield in this format, but lacks Autothrusters. In the absence of Turrets, Autothrusters are useful only against range 3 shots (still quite useful). In general, the range 3 utility is most important against high Attack weapons like HLCs, as 3 AGI dice plus the range bonus plus multiple actions can defend pretty well against most primary attacks. Even then, Autothrusters allow a degree of predictable defense that I think is better than the extra shield of the Advanced. If turrets are involved, it's not even close. When you combine this with the extra effective action of Soontir Fel, his defense is notably stronger than Vaders. Vader can use his EPT to even this disparity out somewhat in the form of Lone Wolf, assuming the triggering factors can be satisfied. If a Focus is available, Lone Wolf will be 5/8ths as good as Autothrusters once, or 3/8ths without Focus. Lone Wolf can also be used against many attacks that won't trigger Autothrusters.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I'll now run down some major threats and see how these two Aces stack up. Generally speaking, neither are bad against these threats, but one will be better than the other.

Phantoms: Both PS9, Vader can be made to hunt Phantoms at PS11. They'll cause problems to a Phantom, depending on initiative.

Fat Turrets: Soontir Fel has autothrusters and so is much more durable. Vader can use ATC to start doing significant critical damage to them early, and still won't be easy to kill, particularly with Lone Wolf.

TIE Swarms: Vader is a bit less predictable to block, but Fel has better offense against fleeting targets. The are approximately the same durability against TIE Swarms, who are pretty bad at long range fire where Autothrusters are keying in.

4-5 ship Rebel/Scum List: Blocking is less of an issue than with TIE swarms and they are more powerful at long range, improving Soontir's movement and defensive positions compared to Vader. They're also tougher, suggesting the ATC advantage would improve, but I think there will still be a lot of shifting targets so Vader's action economy will be hurt.

Automatic Damage: I don't know if this will really be a thing, but Vader's extra shield is important here.

Firesprays/Aggressors/Shuttles/Elite Fighters: Tough targets with firing arcs play to Vader's strengths without activating Soontir's defensive strengths.

Did I miss anything? If you've managed to make it this far, thanks for reading. I'd appreciate any comments and criticisms.

Vader is less vulnerable to Vader (and Vader is definitely going to be a thing, with a vocal minority getting their knickers in a twist about auto-thrusters v turrets)

I personally wouldn't spring for Engine on Vader unless I was going whole hog. There is a huge advantage to being able to project such a mighty threat for only costing 30ish points, 31 for V.I and 33 for outmaneuver/predator. He's less of an arc dodger, to be sure, be much more of a steam-roller than Soontir in this get-up.

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

Kill it with fire:

Gold Squadron Pilot — Y-Wing 18

Ion Cannon Turret 5

R3-A2 2

BTL-A4 Y-Wing 0

They're both scary, but Vader trumps Vader crew which is the only real soontir threat.

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

he does if he gets external stress

and then he's trouble thanks to the Tie Advance dial

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

he does if he gets external stress

and then he's trouble thanks to the Tie Advance dial

Sort of. Soontir already has the Stress, so he's got 2 to dump. If he plays unexpected and does a white move, he'll still have 2 to dump. Vader can drop the stress in one move or keep it and still have 2 shields to protect him if needed. Against the Stress Hog above, Vader is probably better off because he's not carrying a stress from the previous turn. Both should be dodging that arc, I suppose.

I'd almost always go SD than HU or SU on Fel (pretty much only ship). SU will help you against Vader crew, but only once. At range 3, Fel is nigh impossible to hit with SD and ATs. Especially if you are turtled up. They would have to be packing a HLC and hope for 3-4 hits and you blanking out your roll. If they are packing Vader on a Decimator, hopefully you have brought enough extra firepower to take it down quickly. On a shuttle, if you leave Fel in arc you deserve to get Vader'd.

I'd give the edge to Vader just because he has the flexibility in upgrades. He can take a number of EPTs, missiles, EU, another sensor besides ATC, etc. Fel is pretty much stuck with PTL, ATs, and another mod if you choose.

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

he does if he gets external stress

and then he's trouble thanks to the Tie Advance dial

Sort of. Soontir already has the Stress, so he's got 2 to dump. If he plays unexpected and does a white move, he'll still have 2 to dump. Vader can drop the stress in one move or keep it and still have 2 shields to protect him if needed. Against the Stress Hog above, Vader is probably better off because he's not carrying a stress from the previous turn. Both should be dodging that arc, I suppose.

that's assuming Soontir PTLs, of course

If people skew builds for Soontir by dumping stress and other Vaders on the table, then obviously Vader will be better off but if we're assuming soft Soontir checks (like one rebel captive), then imo Soontir will be better off because he's got much more of a dial to work with.

Of the two specific builds you posted, I think I like Soontir a little more. Mainly because when I play the decisive turns are usually a disorganized knife fight where, as you pointed out, Soontir can attack at full power while Vader has to switch his target lock around constantly. That and nobody around here plays Falcons. Vader does have more versatility than Fel, though. He can go for Accuracy Corrector and turtle up, he can grab ATC and gut people (he'll be an all-star at killing large ships) and and he can choose from a huge variety of EPTs while Soontir basically doesn't have an EPT slot because of how useless his ability is without PTL.

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

he does if he gets external stress

and then he's trouble thanks to the Tie Advance dial

Sort of. Soontir already has the Stress, so he's got 2 to dump. If he plays unexpected and does a white move, he'll still have 2 to dump. Vader can drop the stress in one move or keep it and still have 2 shields to protect him if needed. Against the Stress Hog above, Vader is probably better off because he's not carrying a stress from the previous turn. Both should be dodging that arc, I suppose.

that's assuming Soontir PTLs, of course

If people skew builds for Soontir by dumping stress and other Vaders on the table, then obviously Vader will be better off but if we're assuming soft Soontir checks (like one rebel captive), then imo Soontir will be better off because he's got much more of a dial to work with.

Good point.

To me, Vader has the edge as he doesn't need to de-stress with a green move. Also, he has an extra shield. I used to crush Soontir Fel with my Vader back before ATC came out, so I'll be more than happy to use it in the future.

he does if he gets external stress

and then he's trouble thanks to the Tie Advance dial

Sort of. Soontir already has the Stress, so he's got 2 to dump. If he plays unexpected and does a white move, he'll still have 2 to dump. Vader can drop the stress in one move or keep it and still have 2 shields to protect him if needed. Against the Stress Hog above, Vader is probably better off because he's not carrying a stress from the previous turn. Both should be dodging that arc, I suppose.

that's assuming Soontir PTLs, of course

If people skew builds for Soontir by dumping stress and other Vaders on the table, then obviously Vader will be better off but if we're assuming soft Soontir checks (like one rebel captive), then imo Soontir will be better off because he's got much more of a dial to work with.

Soontir without PTL is very nonthreatening. The problem with relying on your opponent to inflict stress on him is that if they can hit someone else with that effect, they will. Or they'll enjoy your lack of defensive options, if the stress token comes after the attack roll. And if he's counting on a Rebel Captive, his options are to attack the same target repeatedly or not get any use out of his ability. And on top of all that, if you do manage to consistently get your stress and focus token every round you're just as stuck on green moves as the Soontir that took PTL.

I like your builds. I might give Vader the Accuracy Correcter, which basically guarantees him two hits. And he does not have any of his actions tied up. I would also look very closely at VI for Vader and Proton Rockets. If Vader is guaranteed to move last his ability to boost and barrel-roll makes him very wile. If he has the Accuracy Correcter he might be good with Outmaneuver.

When it comes to comparing Fel Vs Vader, at first glance it may look like Fel has the superior dial. But You really should compare Fel's white maneuvers to Vader's whole dial. Since Fel is going to PtL a lot.

Both Vader and Fel suffer against stress mechanics, though Fel suffers less.

At the end of the Day Vader can dish our more damage, can take more damage (1 extra vs shield upgrade on Fel) and Vader with Advanced Targeting is actually going to do more damage. 2 dice + Crit is better than 3 dice. Over all Fel actually beats Vader when it comes to actions, since he will be doing 2 actions + a focus whenever he PtL, but he can't do this every round. But since I already basically took this cost into account in the discussion of movement.

Advanced sensors on vader for flexibility & possibly experimental interface with expert handling.

He can double action & k turn which is powerful or double action then barrel roll before pulling a green.

Sensor jammer + stealth & expert handling for defense could be interesting. Shedding a target lock would frustrate alot of decimators & enemy advanceds.

Offensively adv targeting computer of course & maybe calculation.

As for fel. Stealth device & thrusters seems to be the better build IMO though vulnerable to decivader.

Vader's ability on kicks in during the perform action step (explicitly), which you forfeit for sensors

sad but true

don't think I'd do it anyway, though. 30+ point ships with only 2 red dice don't instill the greatest confidence in me

I didn't get into this, but who would you say is better vs Whisper without Vader using VI to go to 11? Assuming the dual takes a few turns, Vader's extra damage will be nice.

If Whisper moves first: I think Soontir has an edge over Vader, he can do his best to do long range jousting where it's his 3 dice vs the Phantom's 2 and the Phantom can't re-position as effectively. In a straight joust he can get Evade/Focus/Focus to limit incoming damage and still have a boosted attack roll. Whisper is probably always able to close the gap so Autothrusters won't come into play. In a knife fight, they probably both try to jump away to long range to joust again.

If Whisper moves second: I think Vader has an edge over Soontir, it will probably take a while to hammer away at AGI 4, so the action cost for ATC is minimal, and the slight damage edge is important.

Advanced sensors on vader for flexibility & possibly experimental interface with expert handling.

He can double action & k turn which is powerful or double action then barrel roll before pulling a green.

Sensor jammer + stealth & expert handling for defense could be interesting. Shedding a target lock would frustrate alot of decimators & enemy advanceds.

Offensively adv targeting computer of course & maybe calculation.

As for fel. Stealth device & thrusters seems to be the better build IMO though vulnerable to decivader.

Are are potentially legitimate, but Vader starts becoming something else if you move away from ATC.

When it comes to comparing Fel Vs Vader, at first glance it may look like Fel has the superior dial. But You really should compare Fel's white maneuvers to Vader's whole dial. Since Fel is going to PtL a lot.

I did exactly that in my initial analysis.

Advanced sensors on vader for flexibility & possibly experimental interface with expert handling.

He can double action & k turn which is powerful or double action then barrel roll before pulling a green.

Sensor jammer + stealth & expert handling for defense could be interesting. Shedding a target lock would frustrate alot of decimators & enemy advanceds.

Offensively adv targeting computer of course & maybe calculation.

As for fel. Stealth device & thrusters seems to be the better build IMO though vulnerable to decivader.

I'd rather run LW than EH. EH is too easily countered by just never getting a TL on Vader. It would just be a waste of an action. It will make your attacks on Vader less accurate, but you make his EPT pretty useless.

Why not both?

Vader (29) (34 total)

-Tie Advanced X-1 (0)

-Advanced Targeting Computer (5-4=1)

-Engine Upgrade (4)

Soontir Fel (27) (35 total)

-Push the Limit (3)

-Royal Guard Pilot (0)

-AutoThrusters (2)

-Hull Upgrade (3)

Turr Pennir (25) (31 total)

-Veteran Instincts (1)

-Royal Guard Pilot (0)

-AutoThrusters (2)

-Hull Upgrade (3)

100 points, all PS 9, total of 8 attack dice and 1 auto-crit hiding behind 3 dice

I'd prefer to have Jax in the mix, instead of Soontir.

All those token stacking donuts and YT-1300 plates..

I will be running both. The empire has two PS9 heavy hitters now and I plan on taking full advantage of it.

I actually detest calling something good just because it has been tested on Vassal. Sure Vassal does a great job in positioning and tracking moves but the one thing that I will say it doesn't keep in some other variables such as the rest of the expansion and the cost of the pack.

Sure everyone knows C-3PO as the $90 upgrade because it was in the Tantiv IV epic pack but not everyone can afford it. Same for ATC. that would end up being $90-$100 for a Darth Vader upgrade pack. Yeah Vassal does not check to see if players own the upgrades and models that they play on Vassal and it is not supposed to but will that mean you will now see plenty of Darth Vaders with ATC? Maybe at worlds but not in every match.

That being said lets wait a couple of weeks to see how Soonter does with the new auto thrusters upgrade before we start calling him the New Whisper or Super Soontir much the same way we call Dash the new Fat Han.

I will be running both. The empire has two PS9 heavy hitters now and I plan on taking full advantage of it.

well, three if you count V.I Marek and Thur (who isn't superfluous now because auto-thrusters exist )

not to mention the possible range of PS available in the coming Raider (though, if its intense similarity to the Transport holds, the other pilots will be PS 3, 5, 7, and 8 and we can confirm the 5 through the FFG article and the 8 through the preview of the box contents)

I feel like it's almost a wash, comparing the two. Fel requires a little more finesse in terms of maneuvering (to stay alive), but has a little more forgiving action/shooting phase (not juggling target locks). Vader has a little bit more health/shields, but doesn't have to rely on green actions to shed PtL stress. At the end of the day, though, they both put out about the same damage, will probably take about the same amount of work to kill (against most lists), and will be about as dangerous as one another.

So me? I'm planning on both of 'em, myself (and, in fact, that list with Turr in there, too). If I'm going for Imperial Aces, I'm going whole hog.

I feel like it's almost a wash, comparing the two. Fel requires a little more finesse in terms of maneuvering (to stay alive), but has a little more forgiving action/shooting phase (not juggling target locks). Vader has a little bit more health/shields, but doesn't have to rely on green actions to shed PtL stress. At the end of the day, though, they both put out about the same damage, will probably take about the same amount of work to kill (against most lists), and will be about as dangerous as one another.

So me? I'm planning on both of 'em, myself (and, in fact, that list with Turr in there, too). If I'm going for Imperial Aces, I'm going whole hog.

eh.......I think there's a mighty huge difference between the two

Sure, if you go all the way and slap engine on Vader they become very similar, but that's only assuming you want to spend the extra four points.

Soontir: far more points efficient arc-dodger (comes packed with boost, barrel-roll, and 3 "actions" for 30 points, 32 for thrusters and 35 for thrusters + stealth)

Vader: far less points efficient arc-dodger (comes with only barrel roll and "only" 2 actions, costs 34 points for EU -assuming ATC-, has two more shields to compensate I suppose)

Now I don't know the math here, but I'd bet on Vader causing more damage per shot than Soontir (though it's probably far easier to facilitate Soontir's shots given that mobility + ease of access to focus, also he does not have to maintain a target-lock on his target) simply because he can guarantee a CRIT result.

These two aces are vastly different from one another. Darth is still the strong-arm "I have you now" walking machine of a bad-ass and Soontir is still the man who's skill allows him to laugh in Death's face. The former is more of a sledge hammer (albeit a laser-guided one) and the other more of a scalpel. That isn't to say Vader can't arc dodge (high PS barrel-roll, plus access to EU) or Soontir can't steamroll (turtle protocol: focus, push the limit evade, more focus atop Stealth Device and Auto-thrusters) but one is more suited to a particular role than the other.