Surrealistik said:

Have you ever heard of running away? That's what sensible players in sensible groups do when confronted with the foulest abominations the Warp can throw at them...

Surrealistik said:

If your GM isn't imposing concealment and silent move penalties for hauling around a 30mm autocannon and a few spare drums of ammo (beyond the fatigue accrued for carrying around heavy gear for prolonged periods), then there's something wrong. It's not just weight - those things are not small by any stretch of the imagination.

The fact you can't see the absurdity of "the pseudo-ninja sneaking around with a standard-issue Imperial Guard anti-aircraft/heavy anti-personnel/light anti-tank weapon" only demonstrates just how utterly out of control your group is.

Surrealistik said:

Ah, exploiting vague rules - a classic tactic of a breed of players I will not allow into my games.

Autocannons don't fire conventional bullets. They fire shells - much bigger and much more restricted (availability has nothing to do with, and does not take into account, legality, and your chances of finding a legitimate source of autocannon rounds outside of a PDF armoury or a Departmento Munitorum supply depot are small indeed). Much the same restrictions should apply in many situations to other high-powered weapons - a Meltagun is, for example, an anti-tank weapon, not the kind of thing you'll find in the average gun shop. Unless you're buying this stuff through illicit or military channels (the latter will always leave a paper trail, the former tends to be illegal), it should never be easy to obtain.

Half this stuff is common sense. The other half is GM's perogative. You can't just pop down a corner shop and pick up another dozen drums of Autocannon shells.

Surrealistik said:

Yes, they're Guardsmen. Cannon fodder of the Imperial Guard, their purpose is to die for their Emperor regardless of how fast their deaths might come. They are not like precious Space Marines who has to be able to survive whatever the galaxy throws at them, and shrug off horrendous damage that would kill ten normal men ten times over. As long as a guardsman has managed to fire his lasgun a few times on the battlefield, then him or her dying isn't a very big deal as far as the Imperial Guard generals are concerned.

For heavens sake, the Imperial Guard commissars are instructed to EXECUTE Guardsmen that tries to run away from battle. That pretty much sums it up how much the Imperium of Man cares whether Guardsmen actually have the Toughness to survive a battle or not.

See, perfectly functional fluff-based answer that speaks AGAINST Guardsmen automatically getting cheaper Toughness upgrades.

"The point is that Assassins can do it far better than the average Guardsman, and sooner. It's not a 'waste of time' because having that stealthy first strike against an oblivious target is huge."

How are you going to get a stealthy first strike with an autocannon? Slip it in your pocket?

bogi_khaosa said:

Im still not sure what the actual justification behind "Assassins can do it far better" actually is...

Both have good BS progression. Both can take the Talent to use it. surely that means they are the same..

And yes, to concede a point here, assassins can get called shot skills much earlier...

But since he seems to be operating the aformentioned ANTI-TANK weapon like a Sniper Rifle.. And given that the range on an A/C is huge, the +30 for an unaware target could apply as equally to an assassin as to a guardsman..

S.K.

<snip all>

Gah. Stupid inability to comprehend quote function.

Surrealistik said:

I have to admit that we play it that Bulging Biceps obviates the -20 penalty for firing unbraced. But in any event in order to avoid penalties for hauling around an Autocannon naked and without ammo, you need a SB + TB of 9, which for a non-Feral World Assassin almost certainly costs more than 2,000 xp. It would cost my Volg Hive Assassin 2,750 xp, for instance, and it would be 4,250 xp if she came from a different Hive. If she was a Guardsman, she could do it for 1,600 xp. Deduct 400 for the Agility +10 cost difference and that leaves me with 1,200 xp to buy Acrobatics and Move Silently as Elite Advances.

Guardsmen also have cheaper Sound Constitution, and have True Grit, Iron Jaw and Hardy in their Talent lists. They are far harder to take down in a single shot than Assassins. And they can purchase Demolitions without sacrificing Step Aside. The Guardsman in our party is a powerhouse in combat, who always has the answer for whatever problem is facing us (unless he fails his Fear check, and gets the result that doesn't let him Frenzy). Including the Autocannon, but also including the Power Sword, the Melta Gun, or any of the rest of his toolbox of death.

Katsue said:

I cant believe I just read this entire thread.

The guardsman in my group, which is almost at 10th rank, is a melee monster. With Wall of Steel and Step Aside and a power sword and bolt pistol, he can tear though multiple opponents with ease. He is a great shooter too but prefers the intimacy of close combat lol. All the while, our assassin backs him up with his silenced Nomad rifle.

I have put my group through the ringer and there are 3 of 6 original characters left, and never have they faced off against chaos space marines. The only time they face off against a major daemon was with the help of 3 Astartes, and they lost, and had to flee into space on a stolen gun cutter with the 1 surviving marine. Needless to say, there werent any melta guns, lascannons, or autocannons laying around.

Surreal's points only demonstrate that his group is a number-crunching one and they play for the big kills, like sweeping and clearing. No problem with that, but its pointless to try and force that style of play down the throats of people that like their games fluffier. Which seems to be the majority of the people that have responded thus far.