Hi there!

I have been playing the game since it was released nearly with RAW, just a small change here and there, and I have to say that I am quite happy with it. Yet, there is something that bugs me more and more as I play the game, and it is the whole wounds, strain, soak, critical wounds, healing potions stimpak thing.

While per se it is not a bad set of mechanics (besides soak being characteristic based), which I know well from other games, I see it more fitting for other rpgs that more combat oriented like the W40K and WF rpg lines. I don't feel that it is very appropriate or evocative for the Star Wars universe, specially the continuous injection of stimpaks a la D&D healing potion style, but in general I don't think a Star Wars game needs such level of detail and crunchiness regarding combat.

So, I thought to start 2015 with the goal to, at least try, change this part of the mechanics. At the moment I don't have a clear idea, which is why I am posting here, but my starting point is The One Ring rpg for those who know it. So I was thinking of:

1) Getting ride of soak totally, not even armour soak. It implies that the Enduring talent, Armours, and Pierce and Breach qualities must be reworked.

2) Unite Wounds and Strain under the same umbrella, let's call it like in TOR, Endurance. This is a combination of how much fatigue, mental stress and "light wounds" your body can take during a fight before falling unconscious. As a first approximation I was thinking of simply adding together the Wound and Strain threshold values. Meaning that weapons now produce loss of Endurance, but also when you suffer /recover Strain by for example performing an extra maneuver or rolling advantages, you loss /recover endurance. I will need to change (unite?) the Grit and Toughened talents, the Stun damage (may be just by using the staggered condition? or creating a new one "stunned"?) and how healing works. I would like to create the "Weary" condition like in TOR, which will trigger for example when your character's Endurance drops to half. The effects of Weary could be something like upgrading all your checks once for example.

3) Critical wounds...here I doubt, I don't dislike them, but the minute detail of tracking them (how many of them, their difficulty and their effect) is tiresome especially taking into account that once the combat is finish they are so quickly and easily healed (I am assuming you have "medic" with Int 3 and Medicine 3 or Int 4 Medicine 2 in the group which may be not the case if you play in a small group of 3 players). So I was thinking again going with a simpler approach and make something like a "Critically wounded" state (the Wounded state in TOR). So that the Unwounded, Wounded and Critically wounded states will be, Fresh or Weary, while on top of it you can be also Critically Wounded. Then, armours, instead of Soak, they will provide protection against being Critically wounded, either by for example creating the equivalent rule o "Massive" for personal combat (pierce and Breach weapon will counteract this effect).

Enough for now, I will try to work on these ideas and post them further.

While per se it is not a bad set of mechanics (besides soak being characteristic based), which I know well from other games, I see it more fitting for other rpgs that more combat oriented like the W40K and WF rpg lines.

That depends on your game I guess. I think a Star Wars game is pretty much a game where combat is always near and I haven't had a session where there wasn't a fight...

I don't feel that it is very appropriate or evocative for the Star Wars universe, specially the continuous injection of stimpaks a la D&D healing potion style, but in general I don't think a Star Wars game needs such level of detail and crunchiness regarding combat.

You are aware that stimpacks get less effective each time you use them during a day? 5-4-3-2-1...

I think this was specifically introduced to counter continuous injection.

1) Getting ride of soak totally, not even armour soak. It implies that the Enduring talent, Armours, and Pierce and Breach qualities must be reworked.

Plus all damage from all weapons and from Brawl attacks as well...

2) Unite Wounds and Strain under the same umbrella, let's call it like in TOR, Endurance. This is a combination of how much fatigue, mental stress and "light wounds" your body can take during a fight before falling unconscious. As a first approximation I was thinking of simply adding together the Wound and Strain threshold values. Meaning that weapons now produce loss of Endurance, but also when you suffer /recover Strain by for example performing an extra maneuver or rolling advantages, you loss /recover endurance. I will need to change (unite?) the Grit and Toughened talents, the Stun damage (may be just by using the staggered condition? or creating a new one "stunned"?) and how healing works. I would like to create the "Weary" condition like in TOR, which will trigger for example when your character's Endurance drops to half. The effects of Weary could be something like upgrading all your checks once for example.

You are not really getting rid of crunch there your are keeping the system pretty much intact but are just piling 2 numbers together.

3) Critical wounds...here I doubt, I don't dislike them, but the minute detail of tracking them (how many of them, their difficulty and their effect) is tiresome especially taking into account that once the combat is finish they are so quickly and easily healed (I am assuming you have "medic" with Int 3 and Medicine 3 or Int 4 Medicine 2 in the group which may be not the case if you play in a small group of 3 players). So I was thinking again going with a simpler approach and make something like a "Critically wounded" state (the Wounded state in TOR). So that the Unwounded, Wounded and Critically wounded states will be, Fresh or Weary, while on top of it you can be also Critically Wounded. Then, armours, instead of Soak, they will provide protection against being Critically wounded, either by for example creating the equivalent rule o "Massive" for personal combat (pierce and Breach weapon will counteract this effect).

Again, not really seeing the whole getting rid of Crunch aspect here...

All in all I have to say, it just sounds like a whole 'nother game and I am pretty sure it won't be easy to make all those changes when the whole balalnce of the game hinges on the soak and wounds thing they got going on...

Enough for now, I will try to work on these ideas and post them further.

I don't really like the stimpack thing either, but it might be easier to tweak limits rather than do a total overhaul. Not to be too negative, but what you're proposing is far too much work for the benefit you'll get. If you pool Wounds and Strain it's even more work, plus you have to reconsider how to spend Advantages and Threat (which is a great Strain currency).

Options:

- limit Soak to Brawn, max of 2 or 3.

- limit stimpacks to "once per encounter", just like Medicine checks.

- limit stimpacks by changing the reduction per use from 5,4,3,2,1 to 5,3,2

- limit stimpacks to once a day

These aren't going to break the game and then you don't have to refactor so many core game aspects.

Or simply state that stim-packs don't exist I suppose.

I agree that the (inaccurately named) stim packs feel video-gamey to me as well. But I also agree with Dante that this seems like a lot of changes for relatively little end benefit. If you really want non-crunchy combat, there is the one-roll combat resolution in the GM section of the book that works surprisingly well. (IMHO, TOR isn't much less crunchy in combat, but in character creation; fewer talents and the like.)

I feel like the distinction of plot armor wounds and strain is a useful one, and gives a dynamic missing from many RPGs, which is the ability to track mental stress.

You are aware that stimpacks get less effective each time you use them during a day? 5-4-3-2-1...

I think this was specifically introduced to counter continuous injection.

I am aware of how healing potions work in EotE, they still are healing potions no matter how you limit their use.

Plus all damage from all weapons and from Brawl attacks as well...

I don't really like the stimpack thing either, but it might be easier to tweak limits rather than do a total overhaul. Not to be too negative, but what you're proposing is far too much work for the benefit you'll get. If you pool Wounds and Strain it's even more work, plus you have to reconsider how to spend Advantages and Threat (which is a great Strain currency)

You are aware that stimpacks get less effective each time you use them during a day? 5-4-3-2-1...

I think this was specifically introduced to counter continuous injection.

I am aware of how healing potions work in EotE, they still are healing potions no matter how you limit their use.

While I definitely don't agree with this sentiment and find your use of the word healing potion a bit arrogant in your reply (stimpacks are used to take care of superficial wounds in a SF RPG, they are not magic potions that heal missing limbs, deep axe wounds, etc.) you would be well within reason to limit the use of stimpacks to once a day.

I feel like the distinction of plot armor wounds and strain is a useful one, and gives a dynamic missing from many RPGs, which is the ability to track mental stress.

On that note, I had considered just moving stun damage to wounds, so it better encapsulated plot armor. That leaves Strain as just mental and physical exhaustion, which are often quite connected. Also makes stun weapons more consistant, and eliminates the oddity of it being easier to punch a wookiee into submission then knife him into submission.

Yepes one question, can you tell me please about the exact reasons do you want to add this changes?

Maybe if I understand your actual needs I can help you better mate

I think Strain and Wounds can present themselves as issues, but I also think when you dig into people's character builds you find they skimp on Willpower in favor of Brawn at creation and they don't put xp into things like Grit, Resolve, Second Wind, and Rapid Recovery. One of the house rules we made is you can use a Stimpack to recover Wounds or Strain, but their uses total up together towards the cap and use limited to non-voluntary Strain suffered.

I do think Med checks should be harder, in particular for criticals, with some sort of compounding Difficulty upgrade for multiple crits and a cap on the Difficulty of crits that can be healed in the field vs onboard ship with access to a Bacta tank.

Stimpacks shouldn't be viewed as healing potions, and frankly healing potions shouldn't be viewed as healing potions. They're a tool for finishing a session. If you don't have them many sessions would just hit a point where you can't progress because everyone is too wounded. If you implement a system that removes the need for that narrative tool imo you end up with a system that presents no real threat or challenge to PCs.

I'd say with Strain intertwined the way it is narratively coupled with the mechanical aspects of recovery via dice rolls and then adding in its use as a combat currency with talents, you're essentially throwing out the entire system, not just tweaking it. Good luck.

Perhaps the solution for you would be something used in the old WEG SW system. Leave strain as it is - for maneuvers etc. But the wound threshold is a fixed value now i.e. you don't count 'points left' etc. Instead, when damage exceeds the WT you check how much it was exceeded. In WEG there were (if I remember right) the following stages: 0- 3 stunned / 4-8 wounded/ 9-12 wounded twice(mortally)/ 16+ killed.

I hope you get the idea - the stronger the attack the more serious the wound. I guess the WT value would have to be reworked.

Um.. I guess it still kinda works as soak though...

You could limit stimpack to one injection -- making it expensive as well and lower the heal. Maybe to 3 heal a pop and 100 cred a pop.

Yepes one question, can you tell me please about the exact reasons do you want to add this changes?

Maybe if I understand your actual needs I can help you better mate

Mainly:

- I would like to get rid of stimpaks.

- I would like to get rid of having to track two separate items in combats, wounds and strain. I don't see the added value in this game for it.

- I would like to stop tracking 1, 2, 3, 4... different critical wounds per character with different small effects each one; and having to go through 1, 2, 3, 4, different "too easy to be dramatically relevant" medicine rolls per character to heal them (plus interpreting all the advantages, triumphs and disadvanteges).

- I would like to get rid of soak but give armours a decent role (or no role at all) in the game.

Stimpacks shouldn't be viewed as healing potions, and frankly healing potions shouldn't be viewed as healing potions. They're a tool for finishing a session. If you don't have them many sessions would just hit a point where you can't progress because everyone is too wounded. If you implement a system that removes the need for that narrative tool imo you end up with a system that presents no real threat or challenge to PCs.

I'd say with Strain intertwined the way it is narratively coupled with the mechanical aspects of recovery via dice rolls and then adding in its use as a combat currency with talents, you're essentially throwing out the entire system, not just tweaking it. Good luck.

I like to put it here in the forums because it is a good brainstorming exercise. So I thank all of you who so far spent some time to stop by and post your ideas, criticisms and coments.

The main problem is how do you let PCs play to their full potential and run around with that Star Wars cinematic flair when they're injured. WEG seemed closer, because you weren't wounded until it was serious. Otherwise you end up with PCs running around like Bruce Willis in a Die Hard movie. Another set of options (just brainstorming here, so don't sue me ):

- no stimpacks (bacta can remain, but it's rare)

- Medicine rolls are really a chance to refresh, double the healing for Wounds.

- everybody heals Brawn + Resilience successes Wounds per day.

- Strain is recovered post-encounter normally

- everybody heals up to Strain Threshold per day, i.e.: if you're over, you'll start the new day with some Strain.

- exceeding WT means you can only take a single Maneuver per turn, plus add one difficulty upgrade to all tasks. Stop counting after WT * 2 (when you become incapacitated).

- exceeding ST means you can no longer willingly spend Strain, plus add one setback to all tasks. Stop counting at ST * 2 (when you become incapacitated).

Stimpacks do exist for a reason; they are for sessions when things go bad for the party, and until later levels, they will do. It also removes the need for the "cleric", which has often been the awkward cruch of all DnD games where the least moral of parties must have a heal battery for between combat. E,g, if you get rid of stimpacks, then you will likely need an replacement for it; such as short rests ala DnD 4th edition. That way the party have a certain ablity to "bounce back", perhaps being able to recover wounds equal to a check athletics surivival or some other skill. To bring it more in line with how strain is recovered, in that though wounds are wounds, they are not necessarily direct physical injury against a weapon.

Just, whatever you do with the stims, you need to provide some way of a party bouncing back, otherwise heros might never bounce back up.

I don't recommend mixing wounds and strain. They are kept two seperate resources for reason, and many talents break down.

As for soak and brawn? I use it as intended. I believe brawn is general fitness and athletic ability, so I believe soak is as much the ability to dodge as it is to catch blows with ones face.

The way I see it is that both Strain and Wound are abstractions to determine the general well-being of the character. Strain represents mental strain, while Wound represents physical stress. Actual physical damage, to me, is represented by Critical Wounds. When you take wounds, I see it more like pushing your body to do what you want it to do, straining your muscles, or taking bruises and cuts and scrapes. When you reach your Wound threshold, it means that your body can't take any more abuse without something snapping (Critical Wounds). So a stimpack is more akin to an athlete getting a cortisone injection in his knee, except instead of just masking the pain, it revitalizes the character's health and boosts his natural healing ability. A stimpack, of course, won't do much of anything for actual damage, like a broken leg or a blaster hit to the gut. For that, you need more specialized medical attention, which the rules do a good job of spelling out.

So, honestly, I have no problem with Wound and Strain (and Critical Wounds) staying the way they are.

The way I see it is that both Strain and Wound are abstractions to determine the general well-being of the character. Strain represents mental strain, while Wound represents physical stress. Actual physical damage, to me, is represented by Critical Wounds. When you take wounds, I see it more like pushing your body to do what you want it to do, straining your muscles, or taking bruises and cuts and scrapes. When you reach your Wound threshold, it means that your body can't take any more abuse without something snapping (Critical Wounds). So a stimpack is more akin to an athlete getting a cortisone injection in his knee, except instead of just masking the pain, it revitalizes the character's health and boosts his natural healing ability. A stimpack, of course, won't do much of anything for actual damage, like a broken leg or a blaster hit to the gut. For that, you need more specialized medical attention, which the rules do a good job of spelling out.

So, honestly, I have no problem with Wound and Strain (and Critical Wounds) staying the way they are.

Exactly this is what you have in games like TOR (and many others, I just refer to TOR because I am playing it a lot recently), and that is what I want to create with the "Endurance". Notice though that the designers of the game had a different idea for what wounds mean:

Wound Threshold: A character's wound threshold is, basically, how many wounds -physical damage- a character can withstand before he is knocked out.

Similarly, strain is not really mental stress. Well, it is according to its definition, but not according to the game mechanics. As I mentioned, taking an extra movement maneuver drains your "mental stress threshold" instead of your physical fatigue (which would be the wounds as you see them, but apparently not as the designers see them). Similarly a punch (unarmed damage) lowers your mental stress...

as for having physical and mental fatigue split; it is ok, but I don't feel SW takes advantage of this mechanic, so I find it redundant and unnecessary.

Yepes one question, can you tell me please about the exact reasons do you want to add this changes?

Maybe if I understand your actual needs I can help you better mate

Mainly:

- I would like to get rid of stimpaks.

- I would like to get rid of having to track two separate items in combats, wounds and strain. I don't see the added value in this game for it.

- I would like to stop tracking 1, 2, 3, 4... different critical wounds per character with different small effects each one; and having to go through 1, 2, 3, 4, different "too easy to be dramatically relevant" medicine rolls per character to heal them (plus interpreting all the advantages, triumphs and disadvanteges).

I want to ask something. Are you as the GM keeping track of all those things for your players?

as for having physical and mental fatigue split; it is ok, but I don't feel SW takes advantage of this mechanic, so I find it redundant and unnecessary.

I’m honestly curious — In your experience, in what way does FFG’s SWRPG "not take advantage" of this mechanic?

In all the ways I can think of, it is accounted for quite well. Bad rolls can cause Strain, various weapons can cause Strain, and most players seem to use Will as their “dump stat” so they tend to be pretty weak in this area.

I want to ask something. Are you as the GM keeping track of all those things for your players?

My players track this. Well the tons of flatly boring healing rolls after combat we monitor together of course.

as for having physical and mental fatigue split; it is ok, but I don't feel SW takes advantage of this mechanic, so I find it redundant and unnecessary.

I’m honestly curious — In your experience, in what way does FFG’s SWRPG "not take advantage" of this mechanic?

In all the ways I can think of, it is accounted for quite well. Bad rolls can cause Strain, various weapons can cause Strain, and most players seem to use Will as their “dump stat” so they tend to be pretty weak in this area.

In my opinion, mental stress, if it would really be mental stress (which is not according to the mechanics of EotE, see above) is a valuable tool in games where themes like horror, diplomacy, intrigue, thriller... play a big role in the setting. But besides the weight in the setting, as I see it, the "mental strain" mechanic must be accompanied with something else that uses it properly, which in my opinion it is what is lacking in EotE.

For example, in a rpg with a setting where horror plays a big role, I expect mechanics for mental stress tied with mechanics for mental sanity and a good set of guidelines of how to use them and affect the game, otherwise those are redundant mechanics. Similarly, in a game where diplomacy and intrigue is expected to play a big part, mental stress, together with good social interaction rules, make a nice pack. In EotE strain ("mental stress") is mixed with fatigue and wounds, goes up and down like the mana bar of a computer game, with no other consequences than your character falling unconscious once it goes above your threshold.

Said, that it is not that bad. Sometimes, you make a fear roll to face a nexus (just an example) and the dice align to present a result where the character suffers strain, kind of representing the impact of facing such a fearful beast; or you interact with a NPC and if you are lucky, you can get one of these dice pool outcomes where the PC succeeds but he gets a fair amount of strain. Then GM narrates how you convince the NPC but your character gets mentally stressed from all the lies he had to tell. It goes more or less fine like this, only thing is that next roll the PC performs to do something totally unrelated, like climbing a tree after defeating the nexus, or computing the system coordinates for a hypersapce jump, heals him from the gained strain, leaving the scene as a whole a bit flat and with the feeling that strain is nothing more than a currency that you gain and lose quickly but with no real impact.

I want to ask something. Are you as the GM keeping track of all those things for your players?

My players track this. Well the tons of flatly boring healing rolls after combat we monitor together of course.

You do seem to enjoy hyperbole.

I want to ask something. Are you as the GM keeping track of all those things for your players?

My players track this. Well the tons of flatly boring healing rolls after combat we monitor together of course.

You do seem to enjoy hyperbole.

Well i guess one possibility is to possibly develop like 'stimpack sickness' or something.
This could have some kind of suffering to your body so maybe you dont heal wounds from rest.

It can still be hard because some GMs would want more combat than others so there would be situations where combat is inevitable and there wouldnt be anyway to continue on without the chance for constant healing. I like things having a certain amount of realism so i will definitely be having limits on stimpack use, and perhaps only very specific critical wounds can be cured without a proper facility

I am fine with Stimpacks as they are, but you could go with a similar model as repair patches. 3 wounds per use to a max of 6 uses. This allows the PCs to stay up after a tough fight, but in the middle of the fight it may not be worth the maneuver to use it.