Thinking about Inertial Dampeners (ID).. I've had a couple conversions about this card and we can't seem to nail an answer on the head.

Here is the card text (emphasis mine):

"When you reveal your maneuvre, you may discard this card to instead perform a white '0' maneuvre. Then receive a stress token."

Its obvious that the 'perform a white' maneuver is there too allow an already-stressed ship use ID and it would seem that the "Then receive stress" effect is meant to prevent the ship that just used ID from performing an action. But if that ship is not stressed prior to using ID is the perform an action step actually being prevented?

I don't want to get too rules-lawyer-y, but a break down of the activation phase and the FAQ entry for PTL regarding interrupts may indicate the latter.

First, we know interrupts exist as the PTL FAQ entry allows one game effect interrupt another effect allowing the initial to finishing resolving later. Now this is in reference to a free action interrupting the normal sequence of PTL. If a free action can interrupt an effect, I will assume that a normal action can interrupt an effect as well.

Normally in the activation phase, after performing a maneuver, we then check stress. In the case of a white maneuver no stress is produced. Thus the ship can perform an action. Applying this to ID, the ship performs a white '0' maneuver, we check stress, no stress is produced from that maneuver, thus the ship can perform an action (this interrupting the remaining effect of ID), then ID resolves and the ship receives a stress token.

What do you think? Am I nit-picking in the rules? Am I wrong to a assume that the normal activation phase sequence would interrupt an effect in a similar way to the PTL FAQ entry? Thoughts appreciated.

You can't perform any action when you have a stress token. Unless you're talking about Tycho.

So in this case you don't skip the activation phase per say, but when you get to that phase you are still unable to perform any actions, free or otherwise.

If you had an upgrade that allowed you to perform a free action after you performed a maneuver, then you could use that to interrupt the stress you'd get from ID.

Your nit-pick of the rules is mistaken. You have to perform the maneuver, and as part of performing the maneuver you get a stress token. You can't interrupt the maneuver step with the perform action step. You also can not use PtL or EI because you haven't performed an action.

Step 3 is the Execute Maneuver Step, and that's where you get stress.

Step 4 is Check Pilot Stress.

Step 6 is Perform Action, at this point you have a stress and can't perform any actions.

Just to restate what Vanor is saying,

You have the interupt-ness backward. The white stop maneuver isn't interrupting the rest of the card, the card is interrupting the ship's activation. You reveal your dial and then you would normally perform the revealed maneuver, but ID triggers. the ID effect cancels your revealed maneuver, causes you to perform a white stop, then gives you a stress. Once ID is done resolving you proceed with your activation, which is when you get to the check stress and perform action steps.

Your nit-pick of the rules is mistaken. You have to perform the maneuver, and as part of performing the maneuver you get a stress token. You can't interrupt the maneuver phase with the activation phase.

There is no 'maneuver phase.' Maneuvering is part of the Activation phase:

1. Reveal Dial
2. Set Template
3. Execute Maneuver
4. Check Pilot Stress
5. Clean Up
6. Perform Action

In my sequence I am talking about completing the activation phase (as what normally happens every turn), before applying the effect of ID:

1. Reveal dial: activate ID -> 2. ignore -> 3. Execute white 0 maneuver -> 4. check stress: none -> 5. clean up template and dial --> 6. Perform action.

Why does the "Then receive a stress token" effect of ID break up the normal sequence of the Activation phase?

Again maybe nit-picking but if the text read: "...perform a white '0' maneuver and receive a stress token", then I could understand that as part of the maneuver I get a stress token.

Pilot gets stressed before "perform an action" step so no actions.

There is no 'maneuver phase.' Maneuvering is part of the Activation phase:

Yeah I fixed that, it's the Execute Maneuver step.

Why does the "Then receive a stress token" effect of ID break up the normal sequence of the Activation phase?

It doesn't. Gaining that stress is part of the Execute Maneuver step. Which means you have a stress token while you process the rest of the activation phase.

"...perform a white '0' maneuver and receive a stress token", then I could understand that as part of the maneuver I get a stress token.

The word And or Then doesn't change the function of the card. You always have to account for every part of the effect you're using before you can move onto the next step, unless some part of that effect can be used for a trigger for something else.

So if you had an upgrade that had "after performing a maneuver" then you could interrupt the ID effect. But you can't skip to the Perform Action step, or use that as an interrupt since it doesn't have a trigger in the first place.

Your nit-pick of the rules is mistaken. You have to perform the maneuver, and as part of performing the maneuver you get a stress token. You can't interrupt the maneuver phase with the activation phase.

There is no 'maneuver phase.' Maneuvering is part of the Activation phase:

1. Reveal Dial
2. Set Template
3. Execute Maneuver
4. Check Pilot Stress
5. Clean Up
6. Perform Action

In my sequence I am talking about completing the activation phase (as what normally happens every turn), before applying the effect of ID:

1. Reveal dial: activate ID -> 2. ignore -> 3. Execute white 0 maneuver -> 4. check stress: none -> 5. clean up template and dial --> 6. Perform action.

Why does the "Then receive a stress token" effect of ID break up the normal sequence of the Activation phase?

Again maybe nit-picking but if the text read: "...perform a white '0' maneuver and receive a stress token", then I could understand that as part of the maneuver I get a stress token.

After you perform the white maneuvre but before you check for pilot stress as this is part of the maneuvre portion of the phase.

You need to look at it this way:

Lets say you set a 1 forward green maneuvre.

( perform 1 forward ) (check pilot stress) ( perform action )

Gets set this way:

(perform white stop, take stress) ( check pilot stress ) (perform action)

Just to restate what Vanor is saying,

You have the interupt-ness backward. The white stop maneuver isn't interrupting the rest of the card, the card is interrupting the ship's activation. You reveal your dial and then you would normally perform the revealed maneuver, but ID triggers. the ID effect cancels your revealed maneuver, causes you to perform a white stop, then gives you a stress. Once ID is done resolving you proceed with your activation, which is when you get to the check stress and perform action steps.

I understand what you are saying here. And I completely understand that it is designed to prevent the action, but I am not convinced that ID breaks up the Activation phase like you say from a strict reading of the card's text.

Yeah I'd give my own ship the stress pretty much immediately after I said I was using ID. I'd just leave my ship there and drop a token. Skip my action and go to my next ship.

Thought it was that way since the card was spoiled. Only reason it says white is really so that you can do it while already stressed.

but I am not convinced that ID breaks up the Activation phase like you say from a strict reading of the card's text.

It Doesn't. Gaining the stress from ID is part of the effect you're using, so it has to be accounted for before moving on to the next step. It doesn't come at the end of the activation phase.

What you're saying is no different than using PtL w/Adv Sensors. You don't get to perform an action in your Action step, because you have stress.

Yeah I'd give my own ship the stress pretty much immediately after I said I was using ID. I'd just leave my ship there and drop a token. Skip my action and go to my next ship.

Thought it was that way since the card was spoiled. Only reason it says white is really so that you can do it while already stressed.

Provided you didn't select a red maneuvre while stressed at which time your opponent gets to decide what you are doing since that happens as soon as you reveal a red maneuvre.

You are not performing the white stop maneuver in step 3, you are performing it when you execute the ID card, which is in step 1, reveal dial. The proper sequence should be (in my opinion)

Reveal dial - this triggers ID

ID interrupts the activation phase

ID cancels the revealed maneuver

ID causes you to perform a white stop maneuver

ID gives you a stress

Proceed with rest of phase

Set Template - nothing happens here because the maneuver you set on your dial was canceled by ID

Execute Maneuver - nothing happens here because the maneuver you set on your dial was canceled by ID

Check Pilot Stress - you did not execute either a green or red maneuver, so nothing happens

Clean Up

Perform Action - you have a stress token so cannot perform an action

Yeah it's the same order as Night Beast I'd say.

He does a green, gets to take a focus action, then if he can, performs an action as normal.

ID would give you the stress in that 'free focus action' slot.

since that happens as soon as you reveal a red maneuvre.

Actually that's not quite true.

Both this happen when you reveal your dial. There's no immediately[/b] in the rule book, so it would could come down to the rules for two effect for the same trigger.

In that case the person with initiative gets to decide what order they process in. So provided the person performing the maneuver has initiative they could process ID first, which would mean there's no longer a red maneuver there.

I think LucCros is making the "after means any time after" argument, and trying to move he gain stress part of ID until after the ships activation.

But that doesn't work. When an ability triggers you have to resolve it immediately, and you have to resolve it completely. ID triggers on the dial reveal, replaces your maneuver, and gives you a stress. Then, and only then, do you move on to the Check Stress step and complete the activation. You don't skip any steps, and you don't wait until later to get the stress.

since that happens as soon as you reveal a red maneuvre.

Actually that's not quite true.Both this happen when you reveal your dial. There's no immediately[/b] in the rule book, so it would could come down to the rules for two effect for the same trigger.In that case the person with initiative gets to decide what order they process in. So provided the person performing the maneuver has initiative they could process ID first, which would mean there's no longer a red maneuver there.

But this doesn't really matter, because if you're going to use ID it won't matter what's on the dial, or who put it there.

Yeah I'd give my own ship the stress pretty much immediately after I said I was using ID. I'd just leave my ship there and drop a token. Skip my action and go to my next ship.

Thought it was that way since the card was spoiled. Only reason it says white is really so that you can do it while already stressed.

Provided you didn't select a red maneuvre while stressed at which time your opponent gets to decide what you are doing since that happens as soon as you reveal a red maneuvre.

Actually, wouldn't Inertial Dampeners save you from that? You reveal the red maneuver, then discard ID to do the white stop instead. Doesn't matter if you're already stressed, as ID isn't an action and doesn't state you have to have no stress to use it. Sure, you'll end up double stressed at the end of it, but that might be preferable to having your opponent fly your ship off the board.

I think LucCros is making the "after means any time after" argument, and trying to move he gain stress part of ID until after the ships activation.

But that doesn't work. When an ability triggers you have to resolve it immediately, and you have to resolve it completely. ID triggers on the dial reveal, replaces your maneuver, and gives you a stress. Then, and only then, do you move on to the Check Stress step and complete the activation. You don't skip any steps, and you don't wait until later to get the stress.

The Execute Maneuver step is being completely skipped, stress is not being assigned in this step as indicated by some.

No it's not. You still perform that step, you have to or else you can't perform any maneuver at all. And yes the stress is in fact being assigned during this step.

The Execute Maneuver step is being completely skipped, stress is not being assigned in this step as indicated by some.

No it's not. You still perform that step, you have to or else you can't perform any maneuver at all. And yes the stress is in fact being assigned during this step.

I don't think your quite right there Vanor. Technically the step should still get performed, but if you have used ID then you have already performed a maneuver and the one on your dial has been canceled. So you get to the execute maneuver step, the game sees that there is no maneuver to perform (because ID canceled it when it had you perform a white stop in the reveal dial step) so nothing happens in the execute maneuver step.

The Execute Maneuver step is being completely skipped, stress is not being assigned in this step as indicated by some.

No it's not. You still perform that step, you have to or else you can't perform any maneuver at all. And yes the stress is in fact being assigned during this step.

Sorry I did not mean skipped, I meant nothing happens in this step.

ID triggers in Step 1 on the dial reveal and is resolved then, the stress being assigned in that step makes sense to me.

I think you're right, DailyRich. I'm not sure of the exact timing of your opponent changing your maneuver dial when you reveal a red maneuver, but for sake of argument, let's say that happens first. You reveal, a red maneuver while stressed, your opponent selects a different maneuver, you then discard Inertial Dampeners to perform a white 0 maneuver instead.

I would assume that the timing of your opponent choosing a different dial would be a reaction to "when you reveal your maneuver dial," but I'm not sure.

Sorry I did not mean skipped, I meant nothing happens in this step.

ID triggers in Step 1 on the dial reveal and is resolved then, the stress being assigned in that step makes sense to me.

Exactly! Now you got it

So you get to the execute maneuver step, the game sees that there is no maneuver to perform (because ID canceled it when it had you perform a white stop in the reveal dial step) so nothing happens in the execute maneuver step.

But you are still performing a maneuver. You may not be going anywhere so you could say you skipped the Set Template step, since there is no 0 template.

But you are in fact still performing an maneuver, which means anything that triggers off performing an maneuver could still be used.

But you are still performing a maneuver.

Yes, you are. But you are not performing it in step 3. You performed a maneuver in the reveal dial step because ID interrupted the normal flow of the activation phase. You said

You still perform that step, you have to or else you can't perform any maneuver at all

When, in fact, you have already performed a maneuver before getting to that step.

You also said (referring to step 3)

And yes the stress is in fact being assigned during this step.

When actually the stress would be assigned in step 1 because all of ID is being resolved in step one before proceeding to the other steps.

Those are the bits I was saying you got wrong. I actually did indicate that step 3 does happen, but nothing happens in it because the maneuver on the dial has been canceled by ID.

Unless you are trying to say that other events that trigger after performing a maneuver will trigger twice when ID is used. Once in the reveal dial step when ID causes you to execute a stop maneuver and again in the execute maneuver step when you don't actually execute any maneuvers because it was preempted by ID? But I don't think that is what you are sayng.