So now that Wave 6 has officially launched, and I’ve retired my Psycho Tycho (Corran w/ VI, FCS, R2D2, EU, Tycho w/ PTL, DD, EI, Prockets, Prototype w/ CR) list (though not the man himself!), I wanted to take a minute to talk about something I haven’t heard discussed on these forums before – burst DPS (damage per second). For those of you that aren’t aware of the term, it’s used to describe a person who can do lots of damage in a very short period of time, contrasted by sustained DPS, a person who can sustain a decent amount of damage over a longer period of time.

How does this apply to X wing? Proton Rockets on an A wing is the perfect example of a ship with high burst DPS, but low sustained DPS. Normally, their 2 dice attacks don’t really do much damage, but the turn that they fire their TL+F 5 dice attack, they do A LOT, in no time at all. Likewise, the turn that Corran double taps gives a high burst DPS, but he himself has a good sustained DPS as well (thanks to the 3 attack).

My Psycho Tycho list had a relatively low sustained DPS, throwing a total of 7 dice a turn normally. But it had an extremely high burst, throwing typically 15 dice over 4 attacks in one turn. When I made the list originally, it was supposed to be a SnG list that wasn’t competitive. Heck, I played it against a relatively new player because I thought it would crumble and would be an interesting test of skill for me to see how long I could live. But then it was successful. And then it kept being successful. And then I won a SC with it. And I still couldn’t quite figure out how. I didn’t have a lot of health, while I did have a regenerating Corran, he wasn’t the annoying PTL type. And A wings are A wings… little gnats that annoy you… not worth spending 38 points on a single one. But as I started to analyze my games more in depth, I came to the conclusion that it’s successful because of its burst damage.

Wave 5 seemed to be all about the defensive ships. C3PO, R2D2 (crew and droid), MF title, Ysand and Whisper’s focus generating ability (and ACD) were all the rage. And each of them triggers once per round though. So while a standard list (except the defensive 2 ship lists) would be throwing ~10 dice each turn, they would only do ~4 damage or so to these defensive juggernauts. And my 7 dice were next to useless. Once you figure that I have to be defensive with my actions, I’m basically rolling 5 hits a turn, 3 of which are negated prior to the dice. But, when I choose to activate my burst DPS, I can easily do 10+ damage in one turn, greatly negating the effects of all of these defensive boosts. I’ve actually 1 rounded Han with this burst with some lucky dice and crits, though this is unusual.

So, we talk about red dice, we talk about total health, we talk about PS and movement actions, and we talk about defensive mitigation. Isn’t it time to talk about burst damage? Clearly my list isn't the only one out there that works well based on burst DPS. Corran has made the E wing relevant strictly based on his burst DPS. Shooting in the end phase doesn't technically increase overall damage (well, one can argue it does if you won't have a shot the next turn, or that it can kill something before it gets a chance to shoot back, but in the most basic terms, a shot is a shot), and yet his ability is really powerful, even if you're only paying "1" point for it (and then about 3 more for the overcost of the E wing itself). Sadly, the only other ship that really has a burst DPS potential at this time is the A wing with Prockets, though they are soon to be joined by the Advanced w/ Prockets. And I'll go ahead and add N'dru w/ Clusters in there for now since those 8 dice are much more potent than his usual 3.

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

Ndru with Lone wolf and Hot shot Blaster is pretty beastly. (Shamelessly stolen from a friends list).

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

Calculation requires you to spend a focus token.....

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

You have to spend a focus for Calculation. It doesn't work like Marksmanship. Lone Wolf should be pretty much the only thing you use on N'dru.

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

You have to spend a focus for Calculation. It doesn't work like Marksmanship. Lone Wolf should be pretty much the only thing you use on N'dru.

LoneWolf meshes very well with his ability, but I could see using Predator instead of LoneWolf if you really want to make that 8 dice cluster attack hit as hard as possible. Lone Wolf only allows rerolling of blanks, Predator will let you reroll which ever you want. And once the cluster missle attack is gone, you may not care if Ndru has defensive rerolls from Lone Wolf.

I'm a big fan of Lone Wolf and I consider it one of the best EPTs in the game right now, but I can see the argument for Predator on Ndru.

Burst damage does seem to be a pretty good counter to turret lists. I had some success against a decimator on Saturday with Corran+Procket Arvel+Biggs (To keep the A-wing alive long enough to fire his rockets). 12 hull+ 4 shields may seem like a lot, but with a 5 dice shot from Arvel and 2 4 dice shots from Corran at range 1, most of that was gone turn 1.

Hmm... Revising the list...

Corran Horn -35 points

-Fire Control System, Engine Upgrade (6)

Gemmer Sojan -22 points

-Proton Rockets, A-wing Test Pilot, Push the Limit (6)

Biggs Darklighter -25 points

Total: 94 points

1 point short of PTL+R2-D2 on Corran. Hmmm...

Burst damage is a very interesting way to look at damage output. I love Proton Rocket Awings, and that's exactly what you are talking about. Oddly, I think in many cases it would be better for the burst damage weapon to be on lower PS ships in some cases. I guess damage is damage, but would it be better to have a higher PS ship exhaust most of the defensive tricks some ships have (C3P0, Ysanne) and then maximize your burst damage with an attack that has a naked defender? Doing that should increase the likelihood that crits will get through evades and shields.

I played 3 Awings (Tycho,Jake,Gemmer) with Proton Rockets vs Fel, Phennir, Vader. I was able to win, but the defensive turtling of those interceptors seriously weakened my Proton Rockets. I think I only got maybe 1 damage through when Tycho shot them at Fel. That game ended up taking 2.5 hours just because the Awings were moving second and outmaneuvering the Imperial ships, but the Awings couldn't do damage fast enough once the Rockets had been spent.

Is Ndru's Cluster missle the only Range 2 serious burst attack?

Is Ndru's Cluster missle the only Range 2 serious burst attack?

That depens. Do you consider a "standard" Cluster Missile as a serious burst attack? Stack them on TIE Bombers with Captain Jonus rerolls, that's also ok.

Also, there is Major Rhymer with an Advanced Proton Torpedo for 5 dice at range 2.

And has burst damage consideration not always been in the game, but sometimes it's called alpha-strike? The only thing so far that can do a high burst damage more than once per Missile/Torpedo, is Corran Horn.

Burst damage, to me, is ordnance. Every ships primary is it's sustained damage, as it happens throughout the duration of the game. Bursts should be quick and powerful: exactly what a one-shot power attack is.

...I came to the conclusion that it’s successful because of its burst damage.

Smart analysis, with two caveats:

(1) Burst damage has its greatest value early in the game, because (e.g.) killing a ship on Round 2 prevents it from damaging you on Rounds 3 - 15. It's one of the reasons Proton Rockets aren't game-breaking: you typically can't use them until your opponents have already had a decent opportunity to deal some damage.

(2) Burst damage typically costs more than the equivalent in sustained damage. Psycho Tycho with Chaardan Refit costs 33 points, and Psycho Tycho with Proton Rockets costs 38; spending that same 5 points on sustained DPS (upgrading the Prototype to Green + Push the Limit or Predator, for instance) has a larger marginal effect, when you consider it across the expected duration of the game.

And that means that burst DPS can be very efficient against targets with a lot of damage mitigation (like Fel or a very defensive Falcon), but it's much less efficient against targets that just take whatever you're dishing out (like most Decimators or a Blue Squadron Pilot).

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

You have to spend a focus for Calculation. It doesn't work like Marksmanship. Lone Wolf should be pretty much the only thing you use on N'dru.

VI is a strong EPT choice for any PS7 pilot. Even if you can't keep N'Dru out of range two of the rest of your squad, at least he's still a nine.

I've been running a list for awhile that's been based pretty much around sustained burst damage.

Wes+VI

Farlander+HLC+Opportunist

Jan+ICT

This combination can with a fair amount of reliability provide a 6 damage burst shot every turn, while technically having a sustained damage output of 12 red dice, though three of which can only provide 1 damage per turn. Against lower PS small ships, the list can generally remove a ship before it gets to shoot. This comes with the added benefit of having much longer range than the above listed burst damage dealers, though it is much less self-sufficient than those ships as well, so there's that trade off, as well as a few others. And like Vorpal has stated above, it is expensive from the points-cost angle. For all those upgrades, I could put another ship into the list, increasing both my sustained DPS and my ability to receive it, though the burst damage output would take a significant drop.

I suppose an argument can be made that the list above provides a higher output of sustained damage from a single source, rather than having burst damage. Indeed, a fair number of ships are capable of providing higher levels of sustained damage, such as the Phantom, and anything capable of wielding a Heavy Laser Cannon when compared with other ships on their respective categories. For awhile, I had found that my local meta-game had been trending to lists with higher average sustained DPS, such as Phantoms, and HLC laden Firesprays, B-Wings, and Defenders.

I've used FCS + APT on Corran Horn with marksmanship to achieve some pretty awesome burst damage... It's not a competitive build, but it does tend to wreck a ship when it goes off, or be range deterrent until it goes off... No one wants to be at range 1 of that corran

N'dru with clusters can be nasty. Is it worth it to put calculation on him? Only 1pt and allows you a mini focus on both attacks?

N'dru is made for Lone Wolf like Soontir is made for PTL.

if we're talking burst damage, the king of all is this gem (pun wholly intended)

gemmer sojan, proton rockets, stealth device, proto-title, opportunist

jan ors, literally anything

thats one chance at a 9 die attack, that only nets you two stress and 57 points to use.

the rest of the list you can flavor to taste.

if only bodygaurd wasnt scum only...

if we're talking burst damage, the king of all is this gem (pun wholly intended)

gemmer sojan, proton rockets, stealth device, proto-title, opportunist

jan ors, literally anything

thats one chance at a 9 die attack, that only nets you two stress and 57 points to use.

the rest of the list you can flavor to taste.

if only bodygaurd wasnt scum only...

It's 7. I think you need to read Prockets again.

Well that's a waste.

Oh well. It's not like anyone would allow Gemmer to live long enough for that to happen anyway.

Am enjoying this line of thinking. To me, a lot of the math analysis, while excellent work, seemed to undervalue the "burst" effect. Slinging around typical 2 or 3 dice attacks consistently is fine; you'll typically chip away at a ship solely through the fact that Red > Green. However, dice don't typically roll in consistent patterns; they tend to operate in extremes. It's that 4 dice attack when you're tokenless on a rock that floors you, not the chipping away from Range 3. To me, this is the power of the Phantom: the opportune 5 dice attack is DEVASTATING, and these sort of attacks demoralize and swing momentum in a heartbeat.

I am thinking that lists that look to have an "Attack Margin," meaning maximum attack potential while minimizing defensive potential of the target, could be a whole new way of considering list building. Khyros' original list really sings in that regard, as Prockets plus Corran's double-tap are immense, and they are paired with excellent, mobile blockers that can deny actions and set up big hits.

Very interesting, indeed.

Am enjoying this line of thinking. To me, a lot of the math analysis, while excellent work, seemed to undervalue the "burst" effect. Slinging around typical 2 or 3 dice attacks consistently is fine; you'll typically chip away at a ship solely through the fact that Red > Green. However, dice don't typically roll in consistent patterns; they tend to operate in extremes. It's that 4 dice attack when you're tokenless on a rock that floors you, not the chipping away from Range 3. To me, this is the power of the Phantom: the opportune 5 dice attack is DEVASTATING, and these sort of attacks demoralize and swing momentum in a heartbeat.

It's actually along that line of reasoning that I've wanted to give Expose another chance. As you said, it's not the chipping away with 3 dice that matters, its those 5 dice hits that just slam you. And while the average effect of expose may be lower than that of a standard action, the variability, specifically the ability to roll MORE hits than previously possible, may make it worth a second look (or in my case, a 3rd, 4th and 5th, but still haven't made it useful). I still feel like there's a place (besides Expose+EI on a Deci) for it. Perhaps Nera w/ FCS. Or perhaps Guri... He gets a free focus as it is, and if you put FCS on him, he'll have a TL.. What better action to do that roll 5 dice? But I digress... I don't want to make this about how to make Expose work. Rather, what other ideas could be other there on non-standard ways to approach list building (successfully).

Khyros give this a test flight.

Green Squadron Pilot — A-Wing 19
Opportunist 4
Chardaan Refit -2
Expose 4
A-Wing Test Pilot 0

You'll have to find a away to feed it Focus and TLs but it would be 5:A within R1 for multiple Rounds.

Dear, OP Khyros

please stop using DPS in the wrong context. you've clearly been playing MMO's for far too long. Burst damage is fine. but here we don't measure damage per second. We measure damage output from round to round

so please start using a new acronym. such as DPR

thank you

The problem of expose is tied to the problem of ordnance, they give you the possibility of 4 hits at range for a burst of damage... Ordnance is really all about burst damage right?

The problem is the action economy, meaning though the variance is higher there's little way to increase the reliability of the burst. So, developing burst damage is much like working with ordnance, actions + extra dice. There are a few ways to do this luckily, but the difficulty is that most of these methods help with your sustainable damage level.

What is true burst in this game? Probably anything with 5 or more dice and an action or two. Major Rhymer with predator and cluster missiles qualifies, particularly at agi 0/1. That's interesting, because it can happen in the late game, or opening, but to matter he has to be alive when it happens.

There's another kind of burst damage, that happens in most games, consider the howl runner swarm, it's not the ties, but the number - on the merge we can concentrate fire onto a target effectively acting as burst, that's the idea of the joust? My burst + durability will outweigh yours... This leads into the ordnance strike - 6 cluster missile z's are gonna drop 36 dice on a decimator, and that's likely to go down in a round... Here we get back into ordnance issues, but this so called alpha strike doesn't work later in game! Our ships are likely to be lost mid game, and the survivors are unlikely to line up against one target at that point - so to burst, jousting and early burst seem required...

That leads me back to mr. Rhymer, you see he can perform 2 of those burst attacks, and doesn't need to do it on the merge, like corran horn or Nera and APTs. There may be something to learn from looking at how to burst in mid and late game. If we have only one source of burst damage, when do we use it? How can we protect it, and why don't we have multiple sources of burst? If the answer is point cost, and not opening but mid or late, how do we avoid the opponents' opening burst? Which is likely due to the number of present ships.

Following the line of thinking in Ravncat's post the humble Y-Wing with BTL-A4, a Blaster Turret, and any way to modify its dice (whether that be through Aggromechs, named Rebel pilots, or other sources) Seems a good way to get burst damage possibilities into the late game, and you can easily take multiples as at cheapest a Y-Wing outfitted with the Blaster Turret is only 22 pnts.

Btl-a4 seems like a good source of burst damage, blaster and primary at range 1 is like a cluster missile, 2x 3dice - but that's only really burst if you can stack an action or two, agromech helps, since we need the focus to fire the blaster turret. This is a bummer because it means an unmodified shot with the primary.

Like clusters however, it's really only burst if the target is low agility, it's 6vs0 on a decimator, and 6vs2 on a b-wing at range 1, but 6vs8 on a stealth interceptor or cloaked phantoms... Consider an APT with opportunist and jan ORS- now you've got a 7vs 4 die attack... Outmaneuver seems good on those double attack ships, but it can be hard to outmaneuver with a y-wing

so, burst can be built enemy squad independent or dependant. I think if you know the meta well enough, messing with anti agi 0/1 is not too risky, but we need something that can burst vs any target, that's probably why the OP did so well with corran and proton rockets on tycho - he had actions stacked and two sources of burst... Didn't matter what the opponent brought, as long as he could line up the opportunity. That seems like the real trick with this... Making sure your burst happens at the best time with the right actions. His tycho build could keep range and angle on most any target.

Maybe a ptl/ swarm tactics tycho and ptl green with proton rockets and Roark somewhere...