I don't think auto thrusters rewards good flying. It's just insurance. The opening round of combat is most likely taking place at range 3 so you're getting free evades to help stay alive longer. Other than that it's insurance against turrets because turrets are the natural counter to arc dodgers so it helps them stay alive a little bit longer.

There's no "most likely" range for the initial exchange, the range of the initial exchange is something both players have control over, not based on random chance, and with both sides moving towards each other in a single turn, ships can easily go from range 5 to range 2 or even 1 without boosting. 2 ships at range 5 of each other will be at range 2 if they both just move 2 forward. The range of the initial exchange is something both players can influence, and something one player can dictate easily if the other player thinks it's based on chance. I would suggest searching "x-wing rule of 11" on youtube for more info on controlling the range of the initial exchange.

Good Interceptor players can create consecutive turns of range 3 exchanges before disappearing out of your arc by utilizing the Barrel Roll. Strafing is an important Interceptor tactic to be able to arc-dodge while avoiding a block.

Interceptor articles love to show pictures of Interceptors starting slightly to the side of their prey's arc, in perfect position to dodge their arc without any threat of being blocked, but you don't actually start the game there, it takes intelligent flying and deployment to put your Interceptor into that position.

Name one upgrade that can be null and void if your opponent doesn't take the ships you expect.

Veteran Instincts...

Edit: Lt. Blount.

Lieutenant Blount autohits with rocketry, and therefore you pair with with IPM or Assault Missile and you autotrigger their effects. A pilot that can be rendered null and void by your own list doesn't count, as you control your own list.

Veteran Instincts is the pilot skill bidding game. Yes, from one point of view you could indeed cite it as an example of a card that can be rendered null and void by the enemy list if it doesn't reorder your own skips, but it's the only one. I'd personally argue that Pilot Skill is one of the few things you can be certain your opponents will have, and that bidding on it isn't wasting points, but yes, you could potentially cite Veteran Instincts as an example. One, lone example.

Any more? I was told there were plenty.

Name one. Name one upgrade that can be null and void if your opponent doesn't take the ships you expect.

You're kidding, right?

Not at all.

Outmaneuver is also useless against double Decimator builds unless your opponent fields Kenkirk or Countermeasures.

Range 3? If not (I remember a discussion about agility versus bonus dice) then fair enough, but that's one build out of the whole game. The chances of Outmaneuver being dud is very low indeed.

Do combos count? HLC + Gunner vs Decimators and all 1Agility ships. Even without HLC, Gunner is gennerally a waste in those matchups.

HLC + Gunner is pretty much an antisynergy in of itself, but no, it doesn't count.

We're not talking inefficiency against a certain build, we're talking total redunance: dead weight points that do nothing unless your opponent runs a specific ship type.

What, you mean thrusters?

They work against everyone at range 3. You get even one guaranteed evade off of that triggering and you've as good as saved half the cost of a shield upgrade. It's a really nifty little modification that works really well on these fast moving, 5king bastards or the vast amount of distance the large base aggressor covers (does not work as well on the slower Viper, but I'd still take it over just stealth)

I know. EastCoast suggesting they should only have antiturret utility. I'm saying that's bad design that FFG avoid like the plague, EastCoast is saying the game is full of "completely situational" cards that if the opponent doesn't run the expected list are completely dud.

Stay on Target vs all higher PS lists, or same PS where you have initiative.

SoT is a broadly speaking a good counterexample, but again it's tied to the Pilot Skill bid. Your opponent will have pilot skill. SoT also has the utility of turning a maneuver red, which is something you might want anyway (see Keyan). It also has some minor mistake correcting potential.

These are some good counterexamples, but they're either a very rare case (Outmaneuver versus Double Decimator) or tied to Pilot Skill, which is a blind bidding game. Autothrusters has its Range 3 effect so you get some use out of it even if turrets (the game contains five turretships out of the twenty one odd ships in the game) don't show up. That's good design. Same with Assault Missiles: if they aren't flying in formation you're both soft-preventing them from doing so and AM is still a four dice R2-3 attack.

Well technically you only asked for one. But while we're at it, Determination comes to mind. Is there a set number we have to name?

Just wondering.

Enough to establish that Autothrusters being junk without turrets, that a card being redundant without a specific class of enemy ship showing up, is the common (or at least not uncommon) practice you said it was. So far we have one corner case so rare it almost doesn't bear consideration when building (Outmaneuver versus one specific build, a Double Decimator without Kenkirk) and two tied to the pilot skill bid (VI and SoT) and even they have some small utility outside of that bid (changing pilot skill relative to your ships and mistake correction and deliberately stressing your ship.)

I fail to see how Determination can be rendered dud by the opposing list. All lists have attack dice, attack dice have crits on them, all ships have hull. Please explain.

Enough establish that Autothrusters being junk without turrets, that a card being redundant without a specific class of enemy ship showing up, is the common (or at least not uncommon) practice you said it was. So far we have one phenomenally rare corner case and two tied to the pilot skill bid.

I fail to see how Determination can be rendered dud by the opposing list. All lists have attack dice, attack dice have crits on them. Please explain.

Ahh, and you establish that threshold? I think you are confusing me for another poster by the way, I pointed out that there are situational cards. Determination is one of them, it's an insurance policy, and it certainly can be a dud. And there's several upgrade cards that you may not get use out of. Munitions failsafe is another.

My point is that several people would shell out the 2 points if only for turret insurance, I know I would, it's worth the piece of mind. Hell, create the same card as autothrusters, but have it work only against ships that can decloak (ie phantoms). I'd pay 2 points to put it on Biggs.

Determination is one of them, it's an insurance policy, and it certainly can be a dud.

Not what I mean. Determination protects against pilot crits. Pilot crits are always a possibility. By dud, null and void I mean a card that cannot come into play, you might as well not even have it. Your modified Autothrusters lacking its Range 3 effect is two objectively wasted points from the start of the match if no turret shows (a distinct possibility). There's a difference between "may not" and "cannot." A Failsafe that doesn't trigger is not a dud card. A Failsafe on a ship with no ordnance in the first place is.

Likewise, specifically targeting the phantom with no universal utility is god awful design. There is one decloaking ship in the whole game.

Oh, pardon. I lost the context amidst the flurry of text

But yeah, I completely agree with your view here. AT being anti-turret only is incredibly silly when there are a grand total of 5 turreted ships and only 3 of which are actually in need of counter-tech (well, 2.5, Dash is a pain in the ass but at least you used to be able to best him with maneuvering.)

EDIT: quote's ******

Likewise, specifically targeting the phantom with no universal utility is god awful design. There is one decloaking ship in the whole game.

Sure, but are you willing to say people wouldn't pay to build it into their lists?

That's my point, go into a tournament blind. Would you pay 2 measly points on a ship to get the turret protection, knowing full well you might hit a swarm instead? I think you would.

So I disagree that it has to have the range 3 component, I think it's still worth the cost. Feel free to disagree with me, I know you will.

Granted, people probably would still use it because turrets are so prevalent at the moment. But it's still bad design practice. You're meant to be able to build your list to take all comers rather than specfiically counterbuilding one ship or class of ship. Your modified autothruster is a case of making a player gamble on having points wasted from the start of the game or being dog meat for the first decently armed turret they come across. The way FFG's done it it still has a use even if you're up against a bunch of A-wings.

You may not understand how that's good design practice and the potentially dud version/cards that target the phantom alone aren't, but luckily FFG does.

Oh, please, link me the game you've designed, kid.

Double Decimators also render Intimidation and Autoblasters nearly useless. Almost added Autoblaster Turret to that list, but that one still allows firing out of arc and without the need to spend a Focus token.

Calculation vs ChewBo, especially a Chewbo the Determination Leebo variant (you could deal two significant ship crits, but the more likely result is either an insignificant or ignored result).

Enhanced Scopes can also be useless vs an "Aces" list, unless it's to move a high-PS pilot before a low-PS one within your own list.

Again, these are not intended to highlight cards that are universally useless. Just to highlight that there are matchups you'll run into in which they'll be useless.

That's my point, go into a tournament blind. Would you pay 2 measly points on a ship to get the turret protection, knowing full well you might hit a swarm instead? I think you would.

I'll take 2 points general protection over two points turret protection any day

Not to mention, we already have counter Phantoms upgrades. They're called Ion and Stress mechanics. They work quite well on Soontir, too!

That's my point, go into a tournament blind. Would you pay 2 measly points on a ship to get the turret protection, knowing full well you might hit a swarm instead? I think you would.

I'll take 2 points general protection over two points turret protection any day

Not to mention, we already have counter Phantoms upgrades. They're called Ion and Stress mechanics. They work quite well on Soontir, too!

Yes, it was a completely hypothetical example, just to illustrate that there was still value in the card, which someone else was claiming wasn't true. I thought that was kind of a disingenuous position, though I know some people here take any critique of the game as a personal affront.

I just think the change was a minor nerf to ships like the E-Wing, X-Wing and the Defender (other ships could absorb the hit due to cost effectiveness). I don't, by the way have a better solution than auto thrusters, I just think the range 3 piece was too bad.

Granted, people probably would still use it because turrets are so prevalent at the moment. But it's still bad design practice. You're meant to be able to build your list to take all comers rather than specfiically counterbuilding one ship or class of ship. Your modified autothruster is a case of making a player gamble on having points wasted from the start of the game or being dog meat for the first decently armed turret they come across. The way FFG's done it it still has a use even if you're up against a bunch of A-wings.

You may not understand how that's good design practice and the potentially dud version/cards that target the phantom alone aren't, but luckily FFG does.

This is a very smart post. True silver bullets are bad game design.

A game element that's stronger or weaker depending on context is fine, but a game element that literally has no effect outside a particular context is not a good idea.

Oh, please, link me the game you've designed, kid.

Just a little FYI when you've got to the stage your calling someone kid your pretty much throwing in the towel.

It's a sure sign you've no longer got a valid argument and must start throwing insults to hide that fact.

Kid is an insult? Good heavens Hobo.

I think his point is more when you stop arguning points and start trying to belittle the other person it looks like desperation, which is a shame because outside of that your point on it hurting ships that didn't need hurting versus the A-wing and TIE interceptor was a fair point.

Of course it is your inferring immaturity and a general lack of knowledge as well as questioning their intelligence.

Kids are stupid, immature, temperamental, selfish, with an underdeveloped sense of right and wrong how is calling someone kid anything other than an insult?

Imperial Homers of this board seem to be ganging up on ya there EastCoast. Hang in there!

Granted, people probably would still use it because turrets are so prevalent at the moment. But it's still bad design practice. You're meant to be able to build your list to take all comers rather than specfiically counterbuilding one ship or class of ship. Your modified autothruster is a case of making a player gamble on having points wasted from the start of the game or being dog meat for the first decently armed turret they come across. The way FFG's done it it still has a use even if you're up against a bunch of A-wings.

You may not understand how that's good design practice and the potentially dud version/cards that target the phantom alone aren't, but luckily FFG does.

This is a very smart post. True silver bullets are bad game design.

A game element that's stronger or weaker depending on context is fine, but a game element that literally has no effect outside a particular context is not a good idea.

I just think the change was a minor nerf to ships like the E-Wing, X-Wing and the Defender (other ships could absorb the hit due to cost effectiveness). I don't, by the way have a better solution than auto thrusters, I just think the range 3 piece was too bad.

bolded just in case it wasn't clear.

Autothrusters on not themselves OP, but Royal Gaurds with 2 upgrade slots are the issue. They are overpowered or unbalancing on Soontir and friends because of the ability to add stealth device.

Of course it is your inferring immaturity and a general lack of knowledge as well as questioning their intelligence.

Kids are stupid, immature, temperamental, selfish, with an underdeveloped sense of right and wrong how is calling someone kid anything other than an insult?

Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

Slightly condescending, yes. Outright insulting, no.

Autothrusters on not themselves OP, but Royal Gaurds with 2 upgrade slots are the issue. They are overpowered or unbalancing on Soontir and friends because of the ability to add stealth device.

You hit them and the stealth device goes away and those points are gone...green dice fail all the time...

Get closer than R3, which WILL happen, and get him in your arc and the AT doesn't kick in...

I see nothing OP with this...

Keep showing us vile imperials what the rebs are made of!! I am sure they are glad having your awesome reasoning abilities working toward their "glorious" cause...

Keep showing us vile imperials what the rebs are made of!! I am sure they are glad having your awesome reasoning abilities working toward their "glorious" cause...

See Hobo, now I'm not as internet savvy as you are, obviously, but if I didn't know any better I think that may be sarcasm in Shake's post.

Autothrusters on not themselves OP, but Royal Gaurds with 2 upgrade slots are the issue. They are overpowered or unbalancing on Soontir and friends because of the ability to add stealth device.

Have you ever seen an Interceptor killed at Range 3? In the first engagement? In ONE SHOT?

You will pardon me if making that outcome a bit more rare (it is still possible, Direct Hits are killer) does not result in an overpowered ship. I have played this game enough to know how fickle the green dice can be. We are still talking about a ship that only has 3 HP, all hull. It doesn't take a lot for it to die. You don't need to overwhelm their defense, merely get a little bit through.