Say Starviper's are duds to the top4 Finish with 3 basics and a HWK yesterday and 4 basics that had a top 10 finish today at Store Champion ships, yesterday had 16 players today had 47.

Also Et'ahn is great with a Swarm of Z's.

And I've also had great success with A's.

Just because you have bad luck/see a ship doing bad in your local meta, does not mean it is bad.

At the 47 player Store Champ today there was 1 of Every single ship except a bomber and that was mostly due to a lot of Imperial players trying out Scum. (I know of 3 Imperials who where there who usually fit a bomber or two in a list who all played scum)

I would just like to state for the record that Lt. Lorrir, Kir Kanos and Tetran Cowell are not even in Wave 3.

And he missed the actual ships from that wave that are arguable flops.

Like the HWK? It's useful in a few builds, but that 1 attack die really limits its usefulness.

Hey, them's fighting words! The HWK, used appropriately, is fantastic.

Obviously, everything is a dud ship until the Sun Crusher is released, detonates all stars, and the encompassing supernovas destroy all opposing ships.

That's the battleship Yamato, but it takes 30 minutes to fire the Wave Motion Cannon. You need to scramble the fighters for that 25 min fight until you can fire the Wave Motion gun.

To the OP's point, you just don't know how to fly those ships. I would not call them duds. I'm especially liking the Scyk and Starviper this wave.

OP, you're not talking about dud ships, you're talking about dud pilots

In regards to your original assumption, no. No Wave has even had a dud ship yet as I've seen every single one in some permutation on the table in a competitive setting except for the Advance (Raider's coming).

In regards to what you were trying to say, the answer is yes. No game will ever be perfectly balanced.

Also, if you think Nera is a dud you just have to monitor all the forum threads exalting Auto-thrusters, the Aggressor, and/or Interceptor and monitor your salivation accordingly. Her stock is going to go way up if these non-phantom action-dependent ships get super popular.

Also also, your assessment of Xizor is erroneous. Dude is an absolute beast.

eating a bat rocks!! particularly when you pair him with a couple of Es with HLC... and Nara is the only thing that justifies munitions!!

Useful or not the star viper generics are the first super fighter generics that are reasonably priced, and despite that I have gotten good value out of both the e wing and defender generics.

Useful or not the star viper generics are the first super fighter generics that are reasonably priced, and despite that I have gotten good value out of both the e wing and defender generics.

Not to be a sour puss, but...not reasonably enough (or rather, reasonably priced with unreasonable upgrade choices )

just imo, ofc. I still love that flamboyant little ship (especially when it's tricked out) and the psychopath behind the wheel

Useful or not the star viper generics are the first super fighter generics that are reasonably priced, and despite that I have gotten good value out of both the e wing and defender generics.

Not to be a sour puss, but...not reasonably enough (or rather, reasonably priced with unreasonable upgrade choices )

just imo, ofc. I still love that flamboyant little ship (especially when it's tricked out) and the psychopath behind the wheel

True, but compare the Black Sun Enforcer to a Knave or Delta Squadron pilot. Deltas are ok but 30 points... And at 27 points I can find no use for a knave.

Aside from all the other "duds" op claimed exist, I can't be the only one totally in love with the Scyk. Maybe it's my unhealthy obsession with green squadron pilots, but I love generics with EPT slots (plus the Scyk elite has a higher ps than GSP). Yeah the dial isn't as "good" (I would argue one banks have their own value), and they can't use auto thrusters, but they are like a cross between a-wings and interceptors. You get more durability than an interceptor, and while you lose a shield compared to awings, you gain the kind of flexibility that only refit gave the awings. Plus, with a mangler Scyk, scum has no less then three ships with 3 evade and attack. In fact, they are just part of what I love about scum. They can hit like a truck, they can dodge well, but when they are hit, they FEEL it. High risk, high reward. Exactly what you expect from a faction of pirates, criminals and bounty hunters!

There seems to be two conversations going on here. One, will there always be duds? I think the answer is of course, if you define dud as a ship that doesn't shine as bright as others. In the OP a list o ships were listed that the poster didn't partculaly like. I really don't think anyone can really argue with the fact that he doesn't like them or think they are worthy thier points. But even if someone else dissagrees with what ships aren't as good, as long as you believe that some ships are good their has to be ships that aren't as good. I have never flown Lando or Chewie. Now if tournament results are to be believed they are great ships, but when ever I fly a named YT-1300 I always go with Han. I don't know that I would call Chewwie or Lando Duds, but my play style says it for me.

The other issue being discussed here is are the ship listed as duds in the OP actually duds. I think the response has been pretty clear. To some people they aren't.

I perticulaly like Et'han. I partuculaly like him as a wingman to someone with a HLC. Dash or Freelander are my first choices.

But I think both of these questions sort of miss the point. The question that is interesting to me is what do we do with the duds. The first two choices are pretty obviose. Choice one, just don't fly (or even buy) the ships you find inferior. This option is particulaly usueful if you want to win tournaments. Choice two, try to come up with fixes. For some people this is a lot of fun. They like tweeking rules as much as they like playing the game. If you like tweeking games then go for it. I don't really care for it myself. And it doesn't really solve the problem. If you find a dud ship and "fix" it, then other ships will just take their place as less effective.

My personal choice is to take a thrid choice. Intentonally fly ships that other people cosider duds. Part of this comes from my contrary nature. When some one says a ships sucks, I have a knee jerk reaction to say "no it's not, it's great. I will prove it to you." But I there is more. I think we miss out on a lot of the fun that this game has to offer as we explore the use of all the ships. Especially the ones that aren't as popular. I think there is even a competative advantage to this kind of play as well. If you play ships that others have disregarded as duds you may come up with potent combination that other players are as familure with fighitng. I keep hearing about TIE Bomber lists winning tournaments. To many people the TIE Bomber is not considered a very good ship. It has a hard dial and relies on (generally considered overcosted) ordnance. But if you can learn to fly them they can win tournaments. The same thing happened with the shuttles. With the worst dial in the game and being the only large based ship in the game (when it was released) without any additions to its firing arc it was a hard ship to fly.

I would just like to state for the record that Lt. Lorrir, Kir Kanos and Tetran Cowell are not even in Wave 3.

And he missed the actual ships from that wave that are arguable flops.

Like the HWK? It's useful in a few builds, but that 1 attack die really limits its usefulness.

Maybe cause it isn't a fighter but a support craft and meant to support other ships in your build.

I cant agree with a lot of the OPs choices.

Notably ive had great success with corran, etahn, knave.. chained swarm tactics. Zoom in , killer punch, disengage, come back in again.

Equally, nera flying wingman for keyan is great as most people forget she's there and try and outflank you only to get torped to bits.

Thats just some immediate observations/disagreements with the list.

I would just like to state for the record that Lt. Lorrir, Kir Kanos and Tetran Cowell are not even in Wave 3.

And he missed the actual ships from that wave that are arguable flops.

Like the HWK? It's useful in a few builds, but that 1 attack die really limits its usefulness.

Maybe cause it isn't a fighter but a support craft and meant to support other ships in your build.

well, the scum versions do that and kick ass while they're at it

Planned obsolescence? Dud ships sell Ace repaints.

No. Not everything has to be designed to be dominant in the top tier of competitive play. Also, not everything works out as planned. There will be no perfectly designed Wave.

To say this is on purpose is insulting to the designers and completely against all of the established FFG marketing philosophy.

I'm fairly sure they want everything to have a place competitively. It's just that this is a hard game to predict, and how well a ship does in competitive appearance is as much a product of groupthink as it is the ship's actual strength.

tldr: Every ship that isn't the Phantom is bad in my opinion. I provide no facts or opinions and wait for this troll-bait to work.

Wave 4

E-Wings that are not Corran

Defenders

Stopped reading there could not take you seriously.

Seriously... Col.Vessery, Deltas, and Etahn say hi...

Spin it how you like, they're duds. For the same points a named Phantom is way more of a threat than a Defender and no one used to take E'tahn outside of epic play.

Care to qualify your assertions with some substance?

It looks to me to be a case of a player that just don't like experimenting or give much chance to it.

Defenders need more time to get used to than a named Phantom and is less forgiving of mistakes. So, if he didn't really try to learn how to make the ship work and doesn't mind about always playing the same list, I can understand why he would not bother with the Defenders and choose the named Phantom instead. What he seems to fail to understand is they don't fill the same roll so should not be compared.

For my part, I had success with the Defenders, so they're not duds to me. But I gave up trying to convince the others about the ship value. Haters gonna hate.

Vrill? Really?

I would just like to state for the record that Lt. Lorrir, Kir Kanos and Tetran Cowell are not even in Wave 3.

And he missed the actual ships from that wave that are arguable flops.

Like the HWK? It's useful in a few builds, but that 1 attack die really limits its usefulness.

Maybe cause it isn't a fighter but a support craft and meant to support other ships in your build.

well, the scum versions do that and kick ass while they're at it

Through their abilities though. I don't believe the attack is any different. And the Rebel HWK pilots have abilities too.

I do tend to think that FFG has over-corrected and now has a bit of a bias against generic pilots. The wave 4 generics (save only the Z-95s whose stated purpose was to balance the TIE Fighter as the rebel filler ship) are not competitive with their unique counterparts and are rarely seen. Ditto for the 2 wave 5 generics.

I don't know if they're "duds". When I've taken them by themselves they perform adequately. It's just that in comparison to the named pilots, I have a hard time justifying the small amount of points savings I get by going with them instead of the named pilots.

We'll see if the scum generics get any play but, outside of the Z-95s, I'm guessing that the answer will be no.

I do tend to think that FFG has over-corrected and now has a bit of a bias against generic pilots. The wave 4 generics (save only the Z-95s whose stated purpose was to balance the TIE Fighter as the rebel filler ship) are not competitive with their unique counterparts and are rarely seen. Ditto for the 2 wave 5 generics.

I don't know if they're "duds". When I've taken them by themselves they perform adequately. It's just that in comparison to the named pilots, I have a hard time justifying the small amount of points savings I get by going with them instead of the named pilots.

We'll see if the scum generics get any play but, outside of the Z-95s, I'm guessing that the answer will be no.

I wouldn't count out the generic Phantoms. Much tougher to fly, but I do want to try out that tri-Phantom squad someday. And quite honestly, I don't mind that the game has moved away a bit from the generics.

We'll see if the scum generics get any play but, outside of the Z-95s, I'm guessing that the answer will be no.

I think they will be fine:

-Y-Wing Generics with a Ion Turret will be as effective as they currently are in rebel forces

-Firespray Mercenary Pilot can take a EPT

-Starviper Generics with Autothruster really impressed me so far for his maneuvrability and survivability

-Have yet to try the Scyk generic, but my guess is that it will be as good as a Prototype A-Wing

I do tend to think that FFG has over-corrected and now has a bit of a bias against generic pilots. The wave 4 generics (save only the Z-95s whose stated purpose was to balance the TIE Fighter as the rebel filler ship) are not competitive with their unique counterparts and are rarely seen. Ditto for the 2 wave 5 generics.

I don't know if they're "duds". When I've taken them by themselves they perform adequately. It's just that in comparison to the named pilots, I have a hard time justifying the small amount of points savings I get by going with them instead of the named pilots.

We'll see if the scum generics get any play but, outside of the Z-95s, I'm guessing that the answer will be no.

I wouldn't count out the generic Phantoms. Much tougher to fly, but I do want to try out that tri-Phantom squad someday. And quite honestly, I don't mind that the game has moved away a bit from the generics.

The first phantom I took was a Shadow Squadron with ACD, and it performed pretty well. Then I tried Echo in the next game and it was love at first play :-)

I'm curious as to why you don't like generics though?

You just have to understand the history of the game. For a long time, the uniques were rarely used.

Wave 4

E-Wings that are not Corran

Defenders

Stopped reading there could not take you seriously.

Seriously... Col.Vessery, Deltas, and Etahn say hi...

Spin it how you like, they're duds. For the same points a named Phantom is way more of a threat than a Defender and no one used to take E'tahn outside of epic play.

Care to qualify your assertions with some substance?

Then they wouldn't be trolls.

Nera works great. I've been able to surprise so many people with an Ion torp or flechete torp, even have Jan buff a proton torp out of arc.

I do tend to think that FFG has over-corrected and now has a bit of a bias against generic pilots. The wave 4 generics (save only the Z-95s whose stated purpose was to balance the TIE Fighter as the rebel filler ship) are not competitive with their unique counterparts and are rarely seen. Ditto for the 2 wave 5 generics.

I don't know if they're "duds". When I've taken them by themselves they perform adequately. It's just that in comparison to the named pilots, I have a hard time justifying the small amount of points savings I get by going with them instead of the named pilots.

We'll see if the scum generics get any play but, outside of the Z-95s, I'm guessing that the answer will be no.

I wouldn't count out the generic Phantoms. Much tougher to fly, but I do want to try out that tri-Phantom squad someday. And quite honestly, I don't mind that the game has moved away a bit from the generics.

Oh, please do not count out generic Phantoms. The buggers are absolutely brutal, they're only not so common because 1.) turrets and 2.) they're second only to Echo in learning how to fly them properly.

The build is Sigma: FCS, Intelligence Agent, Stygium

This thing is ******* deadly. There aren't many generics that can benefit from target-lock and focus and a four dice attack, except the blue squadron B-wing w/fcs and HLC (clocking in at a point higher and a ps lower, right time in Predator range), which makes them point-for-point one of the most terrifying ships in the game. Unlike Whisper, though, they're actually glass cannons and if you can't use their int agents and Stygiums properly they're going to go down hard.

Imo, they're easily the deadliest generic, you just don't see them because turrets will basically invalidate your skill and force you into a lop-sided dice game (and because Whisper is several times easier to use). With turrets hopefully becoming less prevalent in Wave 6, expect these little buggers to come out of the wood-work.

Also, the Scum Y is the carbon copy of the rebel Y and comes packaged with a hefty damage boost (title). Time well tell if this brings the ship back into the mainstream, but 2 dice normals followed by 3 dice ions sound brutal.