I still would want the 3 agility, but I really like your design, Tipperary, and I will playtest that card when my Dunelizard mini comes in from Mel.

I feel like 3 puts it up in the "super-fighter" realm again, but yeah. I don't really have people to playtest with, so I look forward to your tests!

Because of the cannon upgrade? It's the same stat-line as the TIE advanced, and it has the same action bar. So, while definitely mounting cannons is nice, is it a game breaker? Anyway, I'll see how it runs with 2 to start, it may be that I just love green dice too much.

Edited to say: With the evasion action, maybe 3 is too much, as the Scyk doesn't have the evasion option, so on a turn where you evade, you've essentially got a better chance to evade than does the Scyk, because one of your evasions is guaranteed. The only downside was I really loved using target lock + cannon on the Scyks to almost guarantee damage each turn. So, not having target lock on the Dunelizard is a disadvantage for damage output.

Yeah, being able to run a cannon is the big thing. Think about it like this:

[29] Blue, HLC

[26] Cutthroat, HLC

Cutthroat loses 3 , gets 1 over the B, and has Evade. If I'm recalling the mathwing right, that's very close in terms of overall durability. Now, that's cheaper than a B, and still is if you drop the cannon, but if you do it's 3pts cheaper and has lower attack. If you run it with Mangler vs a naked Blue it's probably slightly more effective at +1pt.

That's sound logic to me, though I viewed this as more of an X-wing counterpart than a B-wing counterpart, but I guess that's where I'm missing things, because it is effectively just a different sort of cannon battery. And with the HLC, it will want to stand off at distance where it gets full damage and the enemy can't roll extra dice, and the speed of the unhinged astromech as well as the barrel roll and evade will help it in that. So, really, if it keeps at range three, it is rolling 3 greens against incoming standard attacks, and has the evade token up, which is a pretty snazzy combo.

I like 2 Agility on it better than 3.

So a PS 3 Cutthroat + Mangler + Targeting Computer is 25 points, which is like a harder hitting X-wing of equal PS for 3 more points, but it's also a better knife-fighter and has a barrel roll. That seems pretty good. Maybe too good, but some play-testing would help.

This make me wonder if there could be some kind of generic, or modifiable dial designed for vassal, so people could test out stuff like this. Ship proxies are no problem, but dials are totally different.

Hah, I'd completely forgotten about Targeting Computer.

One thing you forget is it's in some ways a worse knife fighter, because it can't get 4 at Range 1 like an X-wing, regardless of cannon.

iirc there's a VASSAL "super-dial" with every move on it, I suppose in a playtesting situation you could just make sure both players have a dial reference.

I don't know about too good, but I agree that some testing needs to be done. I think the fact that the cannon prevents the bonus range 1 dice makes a difference, as the 2 base means that it's rarely going to be attacking with its main gun. And if you throw HLC on it, you're going to be out at range 2-3, so not doing a whole lot of knife-fighting at all.

iirc there's a VASSAL "super-dial" with every move on it, I suppose in a playtesting situation you could just make sure both players have a dial reference.

I just checked and yeah, there is a dial. Having contributed to the past couple modules, I probably should've know this. There's a custom pilot card too, but they're Rebel & Imperial only, I might start a S&V version if mu0n wants to add it (I just do graphics/art, I have no idea how he puts it all together). A universal maneuver reference card would be cool, idk how it would work but now I'm intrigued.

iirc there's a VASSAL "super-dial" with every move on it, I suppose in a playtesting situation you could just make sure both players have a dial reference.

I just checked and yeah, there is a dial. Having contributed to the past couple modules, I probably should've know this. There's a custom pilot card too, but they're Rebel & Imperial only, I might start a S&V version if mu0n wants to add it (I just do graphics/art, I have no idea how he puts it all together). A universal maneuver reference card would be cool, idk how it would work but now I'm intrigued.

Technically-speaking, an adjustable reference card would be rather similar to a ship-base, no?

Hah, I'd completely forgotten about Targeting Computer.

One thing you forget is it's in some ways a worse knife fighter, because it can't get 4 at Range 1 like an X-wing, regardless of cannon.

Good call on only 3 attack at R1

Think I'll concede and get on Tipperary's bandwagon. The design is interesting.

iirc there's a VASSAL "super-dial" with every move on it, I suppose in a playtesting situation you could just make sure both players have a dial reference.

I just checked and yeah, there is a dial. Having contributed to the past couple modules, I probably should've know this. There's a custom pilot card too, but they're Rebel & Imperial only, I might start a S&V version if mu0n wants to add it (I just do graphics/art, I have no idea how he puts it all together). A universal maneuver reference card would be cool, idk how it would work but now I'm intrigued.

Technically-speaking, an adjustable reference card would be rather similar to a ship-base, no?

Yes, In that it's a png image with editable fields layered on top. However, the player added stats and names are all alpha numeric and either black or white, depending on the background, but a reference card would be using colored arrows in white, green and red, and that's very different. I think it might require a layered image file like what's used to "ghost" your ship during overlap placement, or something like the Mirror Match colored dots.

Like I said, I just do ship art for vassal (S&V ref cards, and all the S&V ship art except the HWK, and thier Rebel/Imp versions), not the final compositing into the functional parts. I really only have a basic/vague idea of how that stuff is done.

The easiest thing would be to just make a ref card and share it via email, photobucket, dropbox or something simmilar.

The statline numbers (PS/ATK/AGI/HUL/SHI) are all coloured, though? and they're not directly edited by text-entry but rather by shortcuts.

Pretty sure I saw a font with all the action/move-arrow iconography posted on the forums somewhat recently.

I'm not sure how the stats work to be honest, they might be more png images not fonts. That's basically how I saw making a custom reference card, like you'd have a set of colored arrows layered on top of each other, and you'd select which one to display from a right click menu. It's an interesting idea, I'll talk to mu0n about it. I just might be adding a lot of work for him, that might see very little use; I've never seen anyone using the custom ship options so far.

I'm not sure how the stats work to be honest, they might be more png images not fonts. That's basically how I saw making a custom reference card, like you'd have a set of colored arrows layered on top of each other, and you'd select which one to display from a right click menu. It's an interesting idea, I'll talk to mu0n about it. I just might be adding a lot of work for him, that might see very little use; I've never seen anyone using the custom ship options so far.

If effort:reward isn't viable then yeah, I don't see too much point to it.

VASSAL is kind of a tourney-standard environment I guess.

Honestly, I like Rhoaran's version much better. Though I would give it 3 hull and price it at 22 or 23 points (similar to a B-Wing). I don't like this obsession with cannons making 2 attack dice ships viable. Cannons have so far been priced for 3 attack dice ships. It's why the Scyk pays a 2 point premium to make up for the extra dice they get.

It makes sense for the Dunelizard to be viable at low 20s (since it is supposed to be an X-wing equivalent) and without 3 attack dice it just isn't. The constant forcing of upgrades onto ships to make them viable is not a good route to go. You want the base ship to be (somewhat) viable without any attached cards (Turret upgrades excepted, though both the Y and HWK would been better if they were viable out of the box).

I prefer Rhoaran's version because it is much simpler and straight forward. It has target lock which given the ship is supposed to be able to use concussion missiles and proton torps it makes sense. It would be a bit random if the Scyk had TL but its big brother did not. I would just give the ship the exact same title as the Heavy Scyk, but give it free since there is no reason for the surcharge (on a three attack ship). That way you drop the cannon slot as standard. Evade on a 2 agility ship is interesting and makes it stand apart from other small base ships, and makes it pretty viable in a joust. Not every ship needs barrel roll or boost.

This is a ship I would like to see eventually so it is interesting to see how different people conceptualise it. I think there is a tendency here to over complicate the ships. Just keep it simple (and hopefully unique). Even saying this is a difficult ship to play test because of the massive amount of variation possible with its potential upgrade slots, cannon, crew, astro and potentially missiles or torps.

I think they're both quite viable. I definitely like having target lock, that was really a huge deal with the cannons on the Scyks for me. Having target lock and evade on the Dunelizard would be interesting because you'd have to make a tough choice on which to do. I definitely think it needs 3 hull. I like 2 attack, but I wouldn't be opposed to 3 attack. I think I want to make several cards and just play test them until the real Dunelizard comes out. Can't wait for my Mel's miniature to get here. Should be about a week (which is too long a wait for such a cool looking ship!)

Honestly, I like Rhoaran's version much better. Though I would give it 3 hull and price it at 22 or 23 points (similar to a B-Wing). I don't like this obsession with cannons making 2 attack dice ships viable. Cannons have so far been priced for 3 attack dice ships. It's why the Scyk pays a 2 point premium to make up for the extra dice they get.

It makes sense for the Dunelizard to be viable at low 20s (since it is supposed to be an X-wing equivalent) and without 3 attack dice it just isn't. The constant forcing of upgrades onto ships to make them viable is not a good route to go. You want the base ship to be (somewhat) viable without any attached cards (Turret upgrades excepted, though both the Y and HWK would been better if they were viable out of the box).

I prefer Rhoaran's version because it is much simpler and straight forward. It has target lock which given the ship is supposed to be able to use concussion missiles and proton torps it makes sense. It would be a bit random if the Scyk had TL but its big brother did not. I would just give the ship the exact same title as the Heavy Scyk, but give it free since there is no reason for the surcharge (on a three attack ship). That way you drop the cannon slot as standard. Evade on a 2 agility ship is interesting and makes it stand apart from other small base ships, and makes it pretty viable in a joust. Not every ship needs barrel roll or boost.

This is a ship I would like to see eventually so it is interesting to see how different people conceptualise it. I think there is a tendency here to over complicate the ships. Just keep it simple (and hopefully unique). Even saying this is a difficult ship to play test because of the massive amount of variation possible with its potential upgrade slots, cannon, crew, astro and potentially missiles or torps.

I do /basically/ agree that Scum need a low-20s fighter of some sort, and you'll note that my initial ramble didn't lock onto a price point. 19 is simply the minimum where it's prevented from running x4 HLC, and I could see it higher. I do think 3 / 2 is the absolute minimum it should be at for h/s.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the Scyk's pricing, although the S&V podcast made some decent points regarding it, I think either the title or ship is overcosted by a point.

The simple point on primary value is that the Dunelizard's standard primary is more in line with the Y-wing.

The X- and Y-wings both have roughly the same type of cannon, the X-wing simply has twice the number of them. They're listed as "laser cannons". The Dunelizard has 2 "medium laser cannons" as part of a modular mount that can swap them for ion cannons, which is where the cannon slot comes from.

Now, medium laser cannons would have to be twice as powerful as laser cannons to get that 3 jump. (I really wish

they'd used a 0-10 system for attack/agility values, though), and on a modular mount that doesn't really make sense.

Making it 3 attack means pricing bumps that take it firmly into the 30+ realm if you're talking cannons, especially if you're just copying the Scyk's title.

Duplicating the Scyk title on a ship that in your version is mostly a straight upgrade from it is absolutely unforgivably silly, and I will stand by that.

At this point, Tipperary, I think you've got me pretty well convinced about your build. I'd love to see target lock on it, but it's only 2 points to get it with targeting computer, so that's not too bad. Though having target lock standard doesn't strike me as a bad idea either. Pretty full action bar at that point though.

At this point, Tipperary, I think you've got me pretty well convinced about your build. I'd love to see target lock on it, but it's only 2 points to get it with targeting computer, so that's not too bad. Though having target lock standard doesn't strike me as a bad idea either. Pretty full action bar at that point though.

It's got 3 methods of TL access (TC, R4 Agromech, and K4 Security Droid), at 2, 2, and 3pts respectively. Now, 2 of those take up the "vital" crew/mech slot (and some would argue TC takes the slot reserved for EU), but it definitely has options on that front unlike the eyeball/squint.

Basically I'd give it innate TL if there was a way to put a missile slot on it without Scyk overlap, but otherwise it has options.

Reading the Wookiepedia entry just now, it sounds like it uses the same modular weapons mount system as the Scyk.

" The weapons load could be changed from the standard linked laser cannons to ion cannons, concussion missile launcher, or proton torpedo launcher"

It really might be more fitting to give it a title or mod that functions the same way as the Heavy Scyk title, however it could cost 0 points as long as the base ship cost is already high enough to limit a squad to 4 HLCs. In that case it really should have an innate Target Lock.

A couple other points:

" The Dunelizard added heavier payload and shields, but retained the swiftness and maneuverability that made the Scyk popular "

To me this sounds like this might work too:

Atk 3 (1 one more than Scyk)

Agi 2 (1 one less than Scyk, mainly to keep the cost down, and distinguish it a bit)

Hull 2 (same)

Shields 2 (1 one more than Scyk)

Actions same as the Scyk

Dial, same but less greens, and 2 k-turn instead of 3 & 5.

It's just another way of looking at the ship.

BTW, the Astromech version was called "Type II Dunelizard"

I don't think it should hit any harder, as the payload for missiles was greater, but the actual primary laser cannons were the same. I think, based on the ship in the Galaxies game, it should really be 2 3 3 2, with target lock, evasion, and barrel roll, but I can see compromising with 2 2 3 2 and removing innate target lock for the sake of balance. Although, to be honest, the A-wing also has four action bar icons, so maybe Focus, Target Lock, Barrel Roll, and Evade isn't so crazy out of whack.

The more I look at your design, Tipperary, the more I like it. My Dunelizard shipped today from Mel's minis, so I should be able to get some play time with it in a week or so. I'll definitely be running your card/dial and see how it fits in with the scum in general.

My Dunelizard finally came! I was so excited but I forced myself to finish all of my work before opening the box (didn't expect to have to wait until almost the next day for that to happen). Anyway, it isn't painted, so it's tough to make out since it's partially translucent, but I couldn't wait to show it off. It's got such beautiful lines. I've photographed it next to a Scyk for scale. Look at how sleek and slim and deadly the Dunelizard is. It's sooooooo amazing!

I absolutely can't wait to have this thing painted up. I've got BIG plans for the Dunelizard, huge, ginormous plans!

Keep us posted

Dunelizard vs X-wing: