So what's the deal with Kir Kranos and his Evade? Defensive considerations aside, is it worth taking over Focus? What's the maths say? It must be pretty borderline right, seems crazy he can't have an EPT so he can PTL. Is it a good one?

Just look at your other PS 6 Squint option and the question answers itself. Royal Guard with PTL 25 pts, Kir Kanos 24 pts., had they made Kanos to be 23 pts with an EPT slot then he's be totally usable, right now, he stinks.

with ept he would be overpowered, without he is very much underpowered. So he is the problem kid of the bunch. Awesome fluff, definitely wished i could play him more often, but he just needs to much help (f.e. by squad leader) purely focussed to make him work. So no, not a good one

Kir Kanos' evade token adds +1 to your rolled damage.

A focus will add an average of +1.5, from your 3 die attack, but carries a 42% risk of adding no damage at all.

An evade token adds +1 to your rolled agility.

A focus will add an average of +1.125, from your 3 die dodge, but carries a 42% chance of adding no dodging at all.

In either case, the strength isn't in expected value: it's in the certainty thereof.

Also, Kir Kanos' evade token gives him an extra boost against Carnor Jax and Dark Curse.

Pity he can't take an Elite Pilot Talent. Having a focus token already would be majorly advantageous with his ability, as his ability doesn't suffer from diminishing returns the way a Target Lock would in the same scenario.

At 4 dice, focus is better than evade for defense anyways. Meh. I suppose he would synergize well with a fleet officer. In general you'd just be better off with a saber squadron and PtL.

Seems like if you ran him with a squad leader that would be good also.

Poo, that's a shame!

Who should my third Autoceptor be then? I've got Jax with Opportunist (that's a good synergy, right?), Soontir with, obviously, Push the Limit. Royal Guard? Or perhaps I should go for something with soakyness, like a shuttle (don't think I can afford a Bounty Hunter)...

Wish you could move threads, I should have put this in the List Building sub-forum...

Definitely Turr Phennir.

In many situations, he's better than Soontir Fel!

Poo, that's a shame!

Who should my third Autoceptor be then? I've got Jax with Opportunist (that's a good synergy, right?), Soontir with, obviously, Push the Limit. Royal Guard? Or perhaps I should go for something with soakyness, like a shuttle (don't think I can afford a Bounty Hunter)...

Wish you could move threads, I should have put this in the List Building sub-forum...

If Jax were a lower PS, Opportunist might be better on him, oddly enough. What happens, though, is that low PS pilots move, take a focus or evade action, Jax moves into range, and then the opponent is stuck with the token. This gives said opponent immunity to Opportunist.

I feel that Squints are great as singleton flankers, but building an entire list of them is probably asking for trouble. You need some sort of rock for enemies to run against, and the Interceptor can be a wonderful hammer.

Kir Kanos wouldn't be overpowered with PtL, but he would be certainly useable. We can kind of tell he wouldn't be overpowered because both Squad Leader and more recently Fleet Officer haven't made Kir Kanos into the powerhouse we all want him to be.

Kir Kanos has other issues, namely that, wait for it...his PS is too high. Well at least he shoots too early. You really want him to shoot after everyone else, because that way you set your opponent up in a bad position. Shoot at Kir Kanos in order to strip off his tokens (potentially splitting fire) and not face the potent shot, or ignore him and let him shoot freely with a big cannon. As it stands he really has to think carefully about whether he wants to use his evade token for offence, at the risk of dying. He would have been better designed if that choice rested with your opponent, rather than with you.

Definitely Turr Phennir.

In many situations, he's better than Soontir Fel!

Poo, that's a shame!

Who should my third Autoceptor be then? I've got Jax with Opportunist (that's a good synergy, right?), Soontir with, obviously, Push the Limit. Royal Guard? Or perhaps I should go for something with soakyness, like a shuttle (don't think I can afford a Bounty Hunter)...

Wish you could move threads, I should have put this in the List Building sub-forum...

If Jax were a lower PS, Opportunist might be better on him, oddly enough. What happens, though, is that low PS pilots move, take a focus or evade action, Jax moves into range, and then the opponent is stuck with the token. This gives said opponent immunity to Opportunist.

I feel that Squints are great as singleton flankers, but building an entire list of them is probably asking for trouble. You need some sort of rock for enemies to run against, and the Interceptor can be a wonderful hammer.

My thinking was people will start target locking instead when they realise their tokens won't be usable. OK, they could take them just to stop Carnon's Opportunist from kicking in, but that sounds like a losing strategy for them so he still benefits!

Carnor Jax aside, imperial aces got pretty weak abilities. Or rather, the abilities are not that bad, but they come with so many drawbacks that the final result is overall weak pilots.

Sometimes, developer's perception about something is totally different from their playerbase's perception. I remember the aces' article describing Kanos' ability as "incredibly powerful"... I have yet to see someone fielding Kanos not only in a tournament, but on a casual table. So much for his powerfulness...

Kir Kanos would make a decent Rebel, he'd still be overpriced but he'd probably see some play in action passing lists. He really needs an EPT. He and Lorrir got screwed.

Kir Kanos' evade token adds +1 to your rolled damage.

A focus will add an average of +1.5, from your 3 die attack, but carries a 42% risk of adding no damage at all.

An evade token adds +1 to your rolled agility.

A focus will add an average of +1.125, from your 3 die dodge, but carries a 42% chance of adding no dodging at all.

In either case, the strength isn't in expected value: it's in the certainty thereof.

Also, Kir Kanos' evade token gives him an extra boost against Carnor Jax and Dark Curse.

Pity he can't take an Elite Pilot Talent. Having a focus token already would be majorly advantageous with his ability, as his ability doesn't suffer from diminishing returns the way a Target Lock would in the same scenario.

You've got some really weird math.

3 Attack dice average 1.5 hits without focus, 2.25 hits with focus, for a net of 0.75 extra hits. Kir Kanos' Evade->Hit ability is better.

3 Defense dice average 1.125 evades without focus, 1.875 evades with focus, for a net of 0.75 extra evades.

Kir Kanos' ability basically gives him Super-Focus. It's lousy that you can't combine it with an EPT, though, because it's not so much better than regular Focus that it makes him very special.

Kir Kanos' evade token adds +1 to your rolled damage.

A focus will add an average of +1.5, from your 3 die attack, but carries a 42% risk of adding no damage at all.

An evade token adds +1 to your rolled agility.

A focus will add an average of +1.125, from your 3 die dodge, but carries a 42% chance of adding no dodging at all.

In either case, the strength isn't in expected value: it's in the certainty thereof.

Also, Kir Kanos' evade token gives him an extra boost against Carnor Jax and Dark Curse.

Pity he can't take an Elite Pilot Talent. Having a focus token already would be majorly advantageous with his ability, as his ability doesn't suffer from diminishing returns the way a Target Lock would in the same scenario.

You've got some really weird math.

3 Attack dice average 1.5 hits without focus, 2.25 hits with focus, for a net of 0.75 extra hits. Kir Kanos' Evade->Hit ability is better.

3 Defense dice average 1.125 evades without focus, 1.875 evades with focus, for a net of 0.75 extra evades.

Kir Kanos' ability basically gives him Super-Focus. It's lousy that you can't combine it with an EPT, though, because it's not so much better than regular Focus that it makes him very special.

... You're right and I'm silly.

Poo, that's a shame!

Who should my third Autoceptor be then? I've got Jax with Opportunist (that's a good synergy, right?), Soontir with, obviously, Push the Limit. Royal Guard? Or perhaps I should go for something with soakyness, like a shuttle (don't think I can afford a Bounty Hunter)...

Wish you could move threads, I should have put this in the List Building sub-forum...

Well, I just went 2-0 (initial round was a bye) with:

Turr Phennir (31)

- Royal Guard TIE

- Veteran Instincts

- Autothrusters

- Stealth Device

Soontir Fel (35)

- Royal Guard TIE

- Push the Limit

- Autothrusters

- Stealth Device

Omicron Group Pilot (32)

- Advanced Sensors

- Rebel Captive

- Intelligence Agent

- Engine Upgrade

...worked pretty well. I'd throw the OMG into the mix of enemy fighters, with the Interceptors flanking. The enemy seemed reluctant to pick up shots against it, while the Interceptors lived, owing to the Rebel Captive...leaving it pretty free to go wherever it wanted to mess up their formation and take out fighters on its own. The intel agent also helped balance the low pilot skill, what with advanced sensors and boost, in that I could plot it a turn maneuver...but then decide whether to take that as it was, or maybe boost one direction or the other BEFORE the maneuver, based on the dial I was able to look at.

And both interceptors at skill 9 was extremely helpful in keeping themselves positioned outside of enemy arcs (and Turr LOOOOOOVES skill 9 - he shoots first most of the time, then gets to boost or barrel roll right out of enemy arcs after doing so).

Carnor Jax aside, imperial aces got pretty weak abilities. Or rather, the abilities are not that bad, but they come with so many drawbacks that the final result is overall weak pilots.

Sometimes, developer's perception about something is totally different from their playerbase's perception. I remember the aces' article describing Kanos' ability as "incredibly powerful"... I have yet to see someone fielding Kanos not only in a tournament, but on a casual table. So much for his powerfulness...

I have to disagree with you. I find Carnors ability to be very powerful indeed. I had a list with him in it that I very nearly took to the store champs I played in this weekend. The only reason I didnt is I opted to fly Vader instead since with VI he is a phantom hunting machine as well as makes my list a bit tankier... but when I was testing out my original list Carnor was a nightmare to my opponenets. I used him a a flanker and just sat him R1 of a group of enemies and it really messed with their options. They started taking target locks when they could but that just meant that they really suffered on defense. I would not be afraid to fly Carnor in a store championship of even a Regionals if I went. He is really strong he just isnt popular. Perception and reality are not always the same thing. Half of my list I flew this weekend are pilots that are rarely if ever used and they did very well for me.

If you want more of my thoughts on my build or to see how they did and who I was matched up against I just wrote a batrep https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/136405-store-championships-22815/

Kir Kanos wouldn't be overpowered with PtL, but he would be certainly useable. We can kind of tell he wouldn't be overpowered because both Squad Leader and more recently Fleet Officer haven't made Kir Kanos into the powerhouse we all want him to be.

Thats because those cards put a range limit and kir kanos is not free to go and do what he wants. They cost extra points, and take away an action of another ship, just to make his thing work. Also he being able to barrel roll / boost whenever needs to makes him more survivable. You are definitely right about the PS problem though.

Also Thur often better than soontir? Thats a first for me..

I have to disagree with you. I find Carnors ability to be very powerful indeed. I had a list with him in it that I very nearly took to the store champs I played in this weekend. The only reason I didnt is I opted to fly Vader instead since with VI he is a phantom hunting machine as well as makes my list a bit tankier... but when I was testing out my original list Carnor was a nightmare to my opponenets. I used him a a flanker and just sat him R1 of a group of enemies and it really messed with their options. They started taking target locks when they could but that just meant that they really suffered on defense. I would not be afraid to fly Carnor in a store championship of even a Regionals if I went. He is really strong he just isnt popular. Perception and reality are not always the same thing. Half of my list I flew this weekend are pilots that are rarely if ever used and they did very well for me.

If you want more of my thoughts on my build or to see how they did and who I was matched up against I just wrote a batrep https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/136405-store-championships-22815/

The biggest Jax's issue is his ps 8 while still being forced to use PTL instead of VI. With 8 ps he's behind too many threats while still costing quite a lot and still being very fragile.

I love Jax's ability but I find hard to fit him in a list: both Soontir and Phennir with VI are imo better solution if you want to fly interceptors (with soontir offering more flexibility with better defense and Phennir costing less while still being more than capable of arc dodging).

I've also tried to run a 3 interceptors list with all of these Aces and when deployed alongside Phennir and Soontir Jax becomes the natural first enemy target due his lower ps, scary pilot ability, point cost and less defense than Soontir.

PS in the thread you linked you run Soontir, not Jax.

As for the IT discussion about Kir Kanos he suffers the same weakness of the the Aces who aren't Fel, Phennir or Jax: the lack of elite pilot card.

The real problem is his mechanic, and PTL would help, or at least allow you more opportunity to use it because you would have other offensive and defensive options (including movement). As it is, he has to take the lesser defensive action and then spend it offensively while he's still unable to modify his remaining offensive dice and leaving him with naked dice defensively.

If I was really trying to make use of this pilot ability id pair him with Jendon or omicron shuttle with something like fleet officer and tactical jammer. Its not great but 4 or 5 defense dice with autothrusters is better then nothing defense wise and leaves you with a focus, evade and target-lock so long as nobody steals the focus...

IMO, his ability should have worked by merely having the evade token at the moment of his attack, instead of having to spend it.

I have to disagree with you. I find Carnors ability to be very powerful indeed. I had a list with him in it that I very nearly took to the store champs I played in this weekend. The only reason I didnt is I opted to fly Vader instead since with VI he is a phantom hunting machine as well as makes my list a bit tankier... but when I was testing out my original list Carnor was a nightmare to my opponenets. I used him a a flanker and just sat him R1 of a group of enemies and it really messed with their options. They started taking target locks when they could but that just meant that they really suffered on defense. I would not be afraid to fly Carnor in a store championship of even a Regionals if I went. He is really strong he just isnt popular. Perception and reality are not always the same thing. Half of my list I flew this weekend are pilots that are rarely if ever used and they did very well for me.

If you want more of my thoughts on my build or to see how they did and who I was matched up against I just wrote a batrep https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/136405-store-championships-22815/

The biggest Jax's issue is his ps 8 while still being forced to use PTL instead of VI. With 8 ps he's behind too many threats while still costing quite a lot and still being very fragile.

I love Jax's ability but I find hard to fit him in a list: both Soontir and Phennir with VI are imo better solution if you want to fly interceptors (with soontir offering more flexibility with better defense and Phennir costing less while still being more than capable of arc dodging).

I've also tried to run a 3 interceptors list with all of these Aces and when deployed alongside Phennir and Soontir Jax becomes the natural first enemy target due his lower ps, scary pilot ability, point cost and less defense than Soontir.

PS in the thread you linked you run Soontir, not Jax.

As for the IT discussion about Kir Kanos he suffers the same weakness of the the Aces who aren't Fel, Phennir or Jax: the lack of elite pilot card.

I did end up changing my list since I wanted Vader as a phantom hunter. My original list that I had been testing and almost took was Fel, Carnor, Alpha, and Dark Curse and Carnor was a beast in that list. I do agree that him being PS8 with PtL is a tad problematic. I have been considering running him with VI over PTL actually. While PtL is undeniably powerful I think there could very well be a place for VI Carnor. He wouldnt get the second action but if you are good at predicting your opponent that may be only a minor loss when compared to his ability to work around the phantom and RAC problem.

Kir Kanos I really want to like but every time I try him I really feel the lack of EPT He is fun and decent but there are much better options IMO, especially when you combine the lack of EPT with the PS.