Recently, I've thought that unlike WFRP or other similar fantasy game, there cannot be such things like "Weapons/Armour Shop" in the hives of the Imperium. The reason is obvious - commoners are simply not allowed to own that.

So, the question is: how the Acolytes are supposed to be getting weapons, ammo, armour and other restricted items during the scenario, which takes place on a hive? Especially, I'm interested in it if they are not allowed to show their allegiance to the =I=.

Realistic approaches are most welcome (not something like "You've spent a few hours roaming in the Underhive and purchased that big gun. Let's go...").

It seems that you missed a little part in the IH (page 116, Arms and the Imperial Citizen), where it is written that workers ARE entitled to weapons to protect themselves.

Therefore normal weapon/armour shops exist in hives. And sometimes you can walk directly to the factory where they are produced and start asking around. Some weapons are, after all, only produced on comission and not in large quantities.

Of course there are planets where weapons are forbidden/restricted, in which case the Acolytes would have to either steal them or buy them on the black market.

A Hive is an entire world, for all practical purposes. You've got the luxurious, spaceous palaces and manses of the nobility in the upper hive, the suburbian stretches of various relatively "free" population groups like artisans, traders, guilders and others, the cramped areas for the masses (workers habs, etc. Think highly dense populations like the "workers qubicles" in asian city centres, etc) and the squalid ruins of the underhive crush.

Uphive you can buy anything, as long as its not proscribed, and you can probably get the proscribed as well, with the right connections. Lower down there will be restrictions, but while you'd not want to arm your exploited factory serfs, the Imperium is a highly martial society, and arms are everywhere.

In the lower hive, the black market takes care of all your needs. Where do you think all the gangs get their guns from? Necromunda is an entire game focusing on lower-hive gang warfare, and includes heavy weapons and plasma guns. They might not find a store with goods on display, but ask around and they will (after some screening) be taken down into the secret basement under the warehouse, or into container xv-342 or somewhere similarly hidden yet available.

segara82 said:

Oh yeah, I seem to have missed that column. Interesting! Does it mean that an average worker who has enough money can go and buy for his own needs a hellgun, for example? Somehow, I doubt that's logical... Actually, this kind of hive policy would greatly assist the malcontent groups to easily arm themselves to start an insurrection! This seems strange, for a total control State like Imperium, where I would rather see the weapons banned from the wide sale, Sirs!

No, even after that, I'm not convinced, that I can go and legitimately buy an autogun, for example, in a hive.

Any other opinions?

Darth Smeg said:

Is an autogun proscribed in a hive?

Such thing in the hands of some worker gone mad could result in dozens of loyal citizens. And if autoguns fall into the hands of a well organized group? I don't believe hive authorities wouldn't understand that!

The most simplistic approach to weapons purchase is pretty much what you get in videogames like Grand Theft Auto: a comedy gunshop where you can buy whatever you want if you've got the cash.

I prefer a more nuanced approach: weapon purchases should be context sensitive. Hive worlds are probably a bit like Los Angeles in terms of weapon availability: military spec weapons are available, but hard to get hold of (and illegal) whereas pistols are probably fairly readily available. Frontier worlds and agri worlds probably have a lot of shotguns and longrifles.

If players are undercover and have to get hold of weapons themselves, I'd suggest drawing up three tiers of pregenerated weapons dealers: I was going to do this myself if I got around to it. Players would have to make these contacts themselves during the course of the game

Tier one would be a street level arms dealer: he'd have a stash of five or six pistols, a couple of shotguns, maybe a handcannon and an SMG or lasgun at a stretch. He'd be unreliable, the weapons would be waaay overpriced, and the guns would have probably been used in a variety of murders which could end up being linked to the players. You could probably use a pregenerated character from the Dark Heresy book for this. Alternatively on a frontier world, this might be the owner of a general store selling storm lanterns and stub revolvers.

Tier two would be a corrupt PDF trooper who can put his hand on (maybe poorer quality or obselete)military weapons. Remember, most PDF regiments don't get access to the better gear, so you might be talking laslocks, pump action shotguns, stub guns, autoguns, some unreliable grenades... He'd be more reliable, but venal and perhaps under investigation by the Arbites. He'd sell weapons at cost, but might expect players to buy in bulk.

Tier three would be a high level arms dealer with top grade stuff, perhaps used to selling to Nobles (in which case there's be a lot of mastercrafted power swords, mastercrafted laspistols and boltpistols and illegal exotics) or criminal/cult gangs (so a lot of high quality milspec lasguns, boltguns, chainswords, all with the serial numbers filed off - which is tech heresy). He'd be well guarded, probably an experienced criminal or heretic and likely damaging to the player's reputations with the Inquisition if they use his gear. Plus he'll be cripplingly expensive.

Lightbringer's list looks very good, and gives you as a GM the option to bring in a little bit of side-story (just getting the infos about the Tier3-guy can keep your party busy for a few hours).

egalor: i would advise you to read the mentioned section again: An Imperial Governor has to be able to arm at least a core of the hive's population in case of an emergency/invasion. Combined with the huge number of weapons produced in the same hives (per Imperial Order and old contracts) and laws for weapons nearly like in nowaday America this is one of the easiest tasks for him. He simply regulates the prices so that his citizens can buy them (therefore making sure they buy his weapons, giving him back nearly all their payment), slaps overrated taxes and import-regulations on weapons of other hives (to really make sure they buy his weapons) and therefore arms relatively cheap said core of population. And people who commit crimes with weapons mostly didn't buy them at 'Arms 'r' Us'. Even if ... who cares? Human life is cheap in the 41st Millenium, humanity has bigger problems than a few unhappy workers. Rebellion? No problem, the IG still has better arms and armours than the insurgents, and the governeurs reign over their people from such a high position that their job is more important to them than a few dead 'servants'. After all, which planet hasn't had a 'food riot' or so (in case Terra asks what went wrong)?

Rejoice For You Are True establishes the laws concerning bearing arms in Hive Sibellus of Scintilla. Personal weaponry such as pistols are permitted for all, as are most melee weapons. Bodyguards and other licensed muscle can bear long arms such as lasguns, shotguns and so on but they're required to register their weaponry. Explosives in general are highly proscribed in all hives according to the Inquisitor's Handbook, being highly indiscriminate weapons. More restrictive hives might apply the same restrictions to weapons capable of full auto fire and those designed to hose down a target rather than placing shots carefully. Manstopper rounds would most likely be illegal for civilians to own since it'd greatly reduce the effect of lawkeepers and their access to armour. So, when it comes to buying weapons, pistols and such would be readily available while anything larger would be regulated purchases. Of course, there's always the black market and unscrupulous merchants who can be paid to turn a blind eye. Sibellus itself is rife with corruption, so obtaining a rifle-sized weapon, while probably illegal, should be possible if you know where to look and who to bribe.

All,

I understand your arguments, and I cannot but concur. However, allowing my Acolytes to freely buy an autogun in a generic shop any time of the day... that finds some resistance in me. Maybe I grew too strict as the GM over the course of years, but still, I don't seem to want to allow them to acquire rather potent weaponry without effort (buying is no effort, especially, considering the Acolyte's Stipend income).

I seem to like Lightbringer's approach very much (however, more details are needed) but how do you handle the distribution of potent weapons via the retailer networks?

I understand your arguments, and I cannot but concur. However, allowing my Acolytes to freely buy an autogun in a generic shop any time of the day... that finds some resistance in me. Maybe I grew too strict as the GM over the course of years, but still, I don't seem to want to allow them to acquire rather potent weaponry without effort (buying is no effort, especially, considering the Acolyte's Stipend income).

Are you sure you're not mixing up an autogun with a boltgun? Because I can't see the latter as "rather potent". It's a common PDF and ganger weapon.

In the united states, one can buy and own assault weapons. I would imagine 40k hives are generally similar, most auto/laser weapons are available, to those with the proper identification and permits. If they don't want to flash around inquisitorial clearance, they'll have to go Black Market. I'm sure they can also requisition gear from the Magistratum/Military/Arbites/Inquisitoria Planetoris.

Cifer said:

No, I'm not mixing up. Boltgun is definitely out of question - it shall not be easily purchaseable by anybody in my games, even if FFG/BI/GW officially permit this. Autoguns are potent due to their Full Auto ability, with scoring potentially 10 hits. That's the thing that screws the balance of most battles (I know in reality it is so, most likely). I doubt it should be that easily available.

egalor said:

The reason for that is called poverty. You dont really think that hab workers are paid very well do you? They can barely afford to keep a locked door between themselves and the rest of the hive, and Corpse Starch bars on the table every day. How do you suppose that they could afford something as expensive as a hellgun? Especially because hellguns are normally only seen in the hands of Guardsmen and Stormtroopers provided by the Departemento Munitorium.

Civilians will usually have to make do with Solid Projectile Weapons (usually pistols and shotguns, but sometimes the more financially backed hive gangers have access to las guns and autoguns instead) or even primitive melee weapons. As I said they usually cant afford military grade weapons, which is why there is such a large market for solid projectile weapons in hive cities, since many models are relatively cheap.

Also I think you have the wrong idea of the Imperium as a control state. Sure it is a control state but on a macro level (meaing interstellar level). Most Imperial cities dont even have a coherent police force everywhere. An Imperial city is usually divided between the somewhat controlled areas (like hive spires and the upper areas of a middle hive for example) where you can see enforcers patrol the streets and putting down overt criminal activity with all due haste. But then you have these huge lawless areas (like the lower levels of the middle hive and the underhive for instance) where the enforcers do not go and it is every man for himself. Crime is rampant in these areas and instead of doing anything about it, Imperial officials mainly keep the criminal elements out from the more clean and controlled areas of he city, rather than trying to control them. Quite simply, the Imperium cannot be bothered by such "mundane" activities as gang wars, trade wars, everyday murder, robberies etc. etc. As long as the proles and scum keep out of the Administrative areas and Imperial officials way they can pretty much do as they please in the eyes of the Imperium (provided they dont start chaos worshipping cults or trade in xenos goods etc. then the will have to deal with the Adeptus Arbites and the Inquisition). Then again the planetary governor might have something against rampant crime and ome governors even go as far as trying to control every aspect of their world as to put down criminal activity, but on hive worlds that is pretty rare, simply because there are so many areas in any given hive that are impossible to control...

egalor said:

Well in that case it is your ruling and you are not adhering to the official fluff at all. Also it seems like you're looking a bit to much at the stats of the weapons when deeming what is "potent" and what is not, rather than looking at what the fluff considers to be potent and what is not.

But then again that's your prerogative as the GM of your games...

Hi !

About the "can a hiver buy a autogun" argue

In "Purge the Unclean - Rejoice for you are True!" it is stated that while personal weapons (ie. pistoles) goe without much notice, automatic weapons and "bigger guns" would need licences. Bodyguards etc. would have them, it is said.

While this is not saying anything about "buying" (but "allowed to carry") I would assume that a "legal hive firearms shop" would have a little "cognomen reader". It the cognomen (the "ID" of a hiver) does not have a validation for carrying firearms (or a "buyer validation"), the weapon can not be sold legaly. Still, assuming that "pistoles" are legal to everyone unless taken away somehow (perhaps "born mutant").

This "licenses" could be ingame

- given by =I= as part of a cover for a mission (see "Rejoice" or "Edge of Darkness")
- be granted after paperwork [CommeonLore (Imperium) or ScholasticLore("Buerocrazy")
- be forged [Trade(Copiest) in conjunction with Tech-Use and a device... or "Copist" alone if "Papers" are still accepted/common]

"my two cents"

As far as carrying weapons in a hive, just another small thing I'd like to toss out there.

While it's not explicitly mentioned, it is implied that just about every hive citizen on Scintilla is armed (usually with a small stub revolver as it's all they can afford). Not only is this to protect themselves against criminals, but also to legally protect themselves. Since Scintillas legal system is based on duels, it seems that if your accused of a crime, you'll duel your accuser; if they win, you were obviously guilty (and now probably dead) and if you win, well, the Emperor has favored you with the strength to smite a false accuser (who's probably dead now). Not carrying a weapon could be construed as being unable to legally defend ones self against false (or not) accusations.

As for an armed populace revolting... a mob of angry guys with revolvers is no match for an arbiter rhino ;-).

To get a hold of weapons in a hive, Lightbringer's suggestion is a great one. I would elaborate a bit more to say that i don't see there being any "weapon" shops in the mid to lower levels. Any weapons the workers have could very well be provided to them by their employer (like their housing, food, entertainment, life...) such as is the case with the Fains of Gunmettal City. In the upper level bazaars, however, there might be merchants with a verity of arms for sail in various to rich travelers of the Hive or from beyond ranging from works of art to exotic imports.

Egalor, I know it's your game and you can run it how you see fit, but to be honest, an autogun isn't all that powerful. Heck, there's hardly any difference between it and an autopistol. It dose 1 point more damage, but that's it. It can carry more ammo, but it can still only be fired 3 times on full auto before it's out, just like the autopistol and while it has an RoF of 10, it's a rare day that an attack will score more then 6 degrees of success (and if the situation would allow for more then 6 DoS, the target is doomed anyway) negating the benefits of the higher RoF. It has a greater range, but firefights in DH rarely ever happen over distances greater then 100m, and it's distance is off set by the fact that, unlike the autopistol, it can't be used in melee combat and it's a bit harder to duel-wield. Trust me, an autogun is roughly on the same level as an autopistol.

When it comes to weapons and armaments, the Imperium is a militarized society after all. To mangle a quote from the Lion in Winter: "Of course he has a gun, he always has a gun, we all have guns! It's the 41st millenium and we're barbarians!"

If they're in Scintillia, yes they can buy weaponary. Duels are legal, if you tread on someones toe, small chance they'll want to shoot you. Everyone would carry a small weapon, a stub revolver or something. I'd imagine they could be purchased from certain shops, selling purley pistols, with the best bit of kit being a laspistol. Some may smuggle them home fro their job at a factory, a .54 tranter is a nasty piece o' work

There probably would be shops selling arms and armour in hives, but a permit would be needed.

I'd also like to note that in some situations it's illegal not to carry weapons- Suicide Law XXVC states that 'Failing to conspicuously carry a side-arm in a designated establishment' is a crime; an Imperial crime, no less. Given the extreme scale of the Imperium, I can see the 'local' Arbites Marshal declaring that since a 'true' hive is theoretically one contiguous building (albeit a really large one, with smaller structures inside) it can be considered one 'establishment' and anyone inside not carrying is a criminal.

Lightbringer's suggestions work rather well, although I can see a number of weapons shops/stalls of varying legality throughout the hive (for example). I'd say as a general rule, the physical availability of the more potent ('military grade'?) weapons is directly proportional to the vendor's proximity to uphive/starport/factories/military base, while their willingness to sell such (to anyone without stupid levels of clearance) is inversely proportion to the same proximity. Getting such clearance would be a matter of adeptus/ecclesiastical/inquisitorial ties, or of ties to the nobility, or simply vast amounts of money.

The 'legal' retail networks may keep a small number of the more potent weapons in stock, although they'd be safely locked away until the buyer could show the proper licenses and clearance (in theory at least), along with a catalogue/brochure, to order anything you wanted that they didn't have on hand, which would probably then be delivered to a location of your choosing (in theory, your residence). The more upscale vendors may arrange a private demonstration, and send a factor with an array of sample weapons to meet with you (again, usually a location of your choice), and discuss your requirements, financial solvency and so on. Think arms fairs. Actually, think Lord of War, it's probably a good model.

I must admit, my own group has formed a contact with a representative of the Fane of Fykos (while staying with the Strophes in Rejoice!), and gone looking for the black market in Ambulon. The Fykos deal they got cost them more, but they got better gear from it, while the black market in Ambulon got them a load of illegal weaponry, and got them 'arrested' by a company of PDF troopers called in by the local Magistratum for carrying a load of grenades and an Armageddon-pattern autogun (the thousand round ballistic buffet they got into just prior to the PDF's arrival didn't help matters).

Ok, people, you seem to convince me. I will review my concepts of availability, then.

Still, one problem persists: how to divide which weapons/armour are readily available in a shop for everybody with money, and which are not? How to find criteria for "military-grade" weapons/armour?

A quick'n'dirty rule of thumb could be- anything described as military in its' flavour text, any heavy weapons, any basic weapon with a FA option (and posibly even stricter controls, depending on location), any bolt, melta and plasma weaponry, any grenade (with the possible exception of photon flash), and hotshot ammunition, overcharge packs, and manstoppers. Of course, that wouldn't necessarily stop vendors from stocking a few of said items, nor keep them from the black market...

Alasseo said:

Good policy. I spoke today to one of my friends by phone, and we came up with the same proposal. I suggest everybody adopts it. What do you think?

egalor said:

Another idea would be to simply use the availability rules as they are. Most exclusive military gear will be listed as Rare or Very Rare, along with a few guns that are simply created in very low numbers of course. The availability seem to signify that either the weapons is produced in such low numbers, or the weapons is usully intended for the Imperial warmachine, making it rather difficult obtaining one through the usual channels (i.e simply going in to your local gunshop and buy one).

But saying to your players that it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to get their hands on whatever they're looking for seem a bit harsh and constricting in my opinion. You can go about showing them how difficult it is to get their hands on military grade armaments without having to say "no you can't get it!"

Remember the fact that availability for any given product drops several steps depending on how many people that live in that particular area (village, town, hive city etc.), BUT the time it takes can be raised to as much as several months! So even if you are generally more able to finde Rare and Very Rare merchandise, you'll have to spend huge amounts of time to actually find what you're looking for (time that the PC's might not have if they are out on a mission?). So while the PC's could feasiby find themselves a Heavy Bolter or MP Lascannon, they might simply not have the time to find it. (unless they have good contacts as described in Inquisitors Handbook of course)

Nevertheless, most basic weapons are pretty much standard so letting them find shotguns, autoguns, lasguns etc. isn't a ig deal. And even if you can dish out a lot o damage by using full auto, remember that SO CAN THEIR ENEMIES! And that will pretty much level the playing field a bit.

So to summarize, having an autogun or two in the party isnt "over equipped". It's when they run around in power armour and swing power swords and plasma guns that you might have to consider taking some stuff away.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Your suggestion to use the Availability value is a reasonable thing. However, three issues arise:

1) Hives contain billions of people. Does it affect the availability accordingly (i.e., lower the plank)?

2) If so, then it's a logical inconsistency here: nobody could visit every shop in a hive during the mission or longer, so the large hive population benefit could not be taken into account, right?

3) Of course, it will take a lot of time to find a (Very) Rare item, which is almost impossible during their mission. But, what if their next mission is, say, six months away? They virtually will have loads of time to find any equipment to avail themselves of, no matter, Rare, or not. This not to mention their Stipend, which will also help them.

How to handle this?

egalor said:

1) We've always played with that in mind in our group. Hive's being large trade centers after all, so availability will be better BUT it will take a significant amount of time to find things because you have to "window shop" a whole lot.

2) No not really. Sure even if you cant visit "every" shop in the entire hive, you'll still have access to a lot of shops (even in just one division or sector will probably hold several hundreds of thousands of people to ask). Wheather the PC's find what they are looking for or not depends pretty much on their Inquiry roll, but remember that every Inquiry roll will take a significant amount of time.

3) Yes, which is why such downtime is better suited when you want to find rare and very rare equipment. However you have several solutions to this if you specifically do not want your players to find to much heavy weapons. You could say that their Inquisitor demanded them to stay in orbit or at the local Inquisitorial head quarters doing menial tasks (paperwork, going through heaps of evidence looking for clues for the next mission etc.). Simply telling them that they didnt have the time to go off looking for rare and very rare equipment, but will have to settle for more easily found equipment instead.

Also you could let them find their plasma guns and MP Lascannons and let them buy them only to be informed by their master that such weapons would not be suitable on their next mission where they are supposed to act as inconspicuous civilians or something. Even if you have the equipment there will come times when a set of power armour and a heavy bolter is just not suitable to use. However if their Inquisitor expects them to face heavy fighting (lets say if they are ordered to board a Space Hulk or something similar) then it would probably be a good idea to strap on your power armour. But if you're conducting small scale and secret investigations in the middle or underhive of some world, then wearing power armour and using really heavy weapons will only attract unwanted attention (both by criminals and eventual enforcer squads as well, and engaging them in combat might just tip off the very heretic or cult the acolytes are trying to find that the Inquisition is on to them, making them even harder or even impossible to find).

My advice is that you keep copies of your player's character sheets, and then look them over when you write your adventures. That way you can circumvent challenge issues that might arise from what equipment they have.

Quite simply, use your imagination (after all that is what roleplaying is about ). But don't be too harsh on what equipment your players can buy and use (if you come up with new reasons EVERY SINGLE TIME that the guy with the meltagun cant bring his meltagun then he probably will feel like you have a particular grudge against him or something). Try instead to tailor the scenarios to what equipment your players have at hand, rather than tailoring the players equipment to suit your adventure. Because if you dont, then everything happening will just seem like you arbitrarily decide the outcome of the adventure. You'll see that the players will have a lot more fun if they have some freedom in what they can buy and use, making them really feel like it's them against their enemies, rather than being them against their gamemaster. If you know what I mean.

If they have really big guns, send even bigger threats against them! If they insist on bringing power armour and heavy bolters against a Chaos cult of "ordinary humans", then let the cultists summon a greater daemon, or even worse: make the cultists smart and heavily armed! (sure monsters are scary, but something even more scary is SMART humans that plan ambushes against you. Those can kill an entire acolyte cell if they arent careful)

Table 5-5 on p 126 adress time to find an object by population size, but when it comes to Hives it's meaningless to say "I search the Hive for someone selling a GizmoMajig-IX".

You might as well say "I search Europe" or "I search the Earth" today. Even saying, "I ask around London" is pushing credibility.

So, as the GM you must ask which part. His home Division? A sub-sector of the Hive? A settlement? How many people live there?

This might also solve one of my common problems: A player decides to ask around for item-x, and fails. He immediately says "I try again", or "I try again tomorrow", or the next player around the table says "I give it a go too". Following my own advice, I will now tell them to find another settlement in the Hive to try again. This would also allow bonuses and penalties depending if it's their home turf, if they know people or not, etc.