5 health behind 3 agility, and a sweet dial with the best action bar in the game. Defender has a worse dial overall but has a white k turn, one more health and a better distribution of hull and shields with a worse action bar. Not worth the extra 5 points.

E wing has a worse dial, better distribution of hull and shields, worse action bar, and can take an astromech. Not worth the extra 2 points.

IMO both the defender and E wing should be 25 points base, perhaps defender 26 and E wing 24.

Ok

I dunno, I want to try the Defender without any red maneuvers on its dial first.

If you do turn the Defender's reds white, I recommend white, not green. I notice all the good dials since Wave 2 have been careful not to be autoPTL like the Interceptor and A-wing. I'm not sure we've seen a green turn 2 since Wave 2.

If you do turn the Defender's reds white, I recommend white, not green. I notice all the good dials since Wave 2 have been careful not to be autoPTL like the Interceptor and A-wing. I'm not sure we've seen a green turn 2 since Wave 2.

Oh, I agree... they don't need all those greens. Might need an EPT slot, but if red-less Deltas are good value for 30, I'm for it.

I'm definitely interested in seeing what the PS 1 Starvipers can do.

I strongly disagree. I prefer the Defender dial to the Starviper, but that may just be personal preference. The lack of a K-turn and the 3 turns is cause for concern for me, dialwise.

The Star Viper has a cost on par with Tie Interceptor. Both are 3atk/def but the Star Viper has the seven points for hull and shield built in. The real trade is S-loops for three speed turns and modifications.

2 Segnor directions are pretty nice. Makes it pretty hard to block or predict. The lack of the 3 turn is made up by the boost action. A 1 bank and a boost in the same direction pretty much puts you right in the same position as a 3-turn. Obviously you can't clear a bunch of stuff doing that, but it works for getting around an asteroid. Oh and the **** 1 and 2 turns are white!

A 25 point Defender would have a jousting efficiency of around 90%, and a corresponding required efficiency of 116%. That's probably a little too good for the white K-turn, even though the rest of the dial is terrible. In my House Rules I have them at -3 points so 27 at PS1, for a jousting efficiency of 85% and a required efficiency of 133%. They might still be a hair overcosted at 27 points, but I erred on the side of caution.

PS1 StarVipers are almost certainly overpriced by 2 points.

Edit:

Actually the comparison is not even close. You can't treat shields as being worth 4 points and hull as 3. The PS1 TIE Interceptor cost efficiency is around 89%, and the StarViper is only about 82-83%.

While I'm often curious where you get the values from nearly everyone I talk to agrees about the three ships in question being overcosted. That said I've just played a few games with and against each Viper and I'm already pleased. Their movement dials and access to Boost and Barrel Roll already puts them leagues above the E and Defender IMO. Really I only compaint I have is the Vigo being Ept abscent like the other two PS pilots from Wave 4. This could have been THE go to ship for S&V but most people seem doubtful about it because of a lack of more interesting options.

Pfft starviper cant mount a HLC, by comparison it's a piece of dren.

While I'm often curious where you get the values from

I developed my own model.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/128417-mathwing-comprehensive-ship-jousting-values-and-more/

Same thing, I felt 27 is a nice cost for the Defender. -2 or -3 for E. I don't have a starviper yet, so will have to see on that.

A 25 point Defender would have a jousting efficiency of around 90%, and a corresponding required efficiency of 116%. That's probably a little too good for the white K-turn, even though the rest of the dial is terrible. In my House Rules I have them at -3 points so 27 at PS1, for a jousting efficiency of 85% and a required efficiency of 133%. They might still be a hair overcosted at 27 points, but I erred on the side of caution.

PS1 StarVipers are almost certainly overpriced by 2 points.

Edit:

The Star Viper has a cost on par with Tie Interceptor. Both are 3atk/def but the Star Viper has the seven points for hull and shield built in. The real trade is S-loops for three speed turns and modifications.

Actually the comparison is not even close. You can't treat shields as being worth 4 points and hull as 3. The PS1 TIE Interceptor cost efficiency is around 89%, and the StarViper is only about 82-83%.

You're still beating that drum about jousting efficiency? I would hope that most people have learned that if that's how you decide what to play, you're doing it wrong.

You're still beating that drum about jousting efficiency? I would hope that most people have learned that if that's how you decide what to play, you're doing it wrong.

You're either not fully understanding, or intentionally mischaracterizing the approach. I'll assume the former.

Jousting efficiency is a necessary but not sufficient component of evaluating overall value. The converse to jousting efficiency is required efficiency, which can in turn be mathematically related to the relative firing duty cycle between ships. The required efficiency of the stock TIE Defender is a little higher than the coefficient that a 360 degree turret gets from increasing its relative firing duty cycle. A turret is better than a K-turn, therefore the Defender is clearly overcosted.

And yes, most squads used now don't want to joust, but they still have to roll dice to win.

I'd take white turns on the defender over 25 points any day.

I'll have to leave the maths to juggler because it's not my field, but the presence of the phantom makes the prices of these generics seem rather ridiculous in comparison (Sigma + fcs + int agent + stygium = delta pilot in cost, apparently)

I think FF really did price the Star Viper at (18 point Alpha Squint) + (3 point Hull) + (4 point shield) = 25 point Black Sun Enforcer StarViper.

The 22 point PS6 Royal Guard Squint is, I think, the proper costing of the ship, and a 2 point break from the PS1 equivalent. I wish the StarViper had used that as the baseline, instead.

I actually do love that the Squint and StarViper are different executions of the same basic idea.

I guess we can hope for Black Sun Aces in the future.

I think FF really did price the Star Viper at (18 point Alpha Squint) + (3 point Hull) + (4 point shield) = 25 point Black Sun Enforcer StarViper.

The 22 point PS6 Royal Guard Squint is, I think, the proper costing of the ship, and a 2 point break from the PS1 equivalent. I wish the StarViper had used that as the baseline, instead.

I actually do love that the Squint and StarViper are different executions of the same basic idea.

I guess we can hope for Black Sun Aces in the future.

eh...the dials are nowhere near similar enough to justify such a straight comparison. not to mention they're in completely different factions with access to completely different squad mates, so I highly doubt FFG priced it along those lines

I personally have no idea what sort of arcana they utilize to price ships, but it seems quite off quite a bit of the time

The starviper's case is a little more baffling than the e-wing/defender, though, because FFG should be well past the point where they value ordinance at all (They have to have learned from the A-wing and Advance fixes, or maybe they only learned about missiles)

eh...the dials are nowhere near similar enough to justify such a straight comparison. not to mention they're in completely different factions with access to completely different squad mates, so I highly doubt FFG priced it along those lines

The point about squadmates is an interesting one, and one I'd be curious to see how it gets priced for.

As far as dials go, I think the two are more similar than you seem to. The 'Viper is one notch slower, and has very much the same types of maneuvers. And has the S-loops instead of K-Turns. I'm not sure which of them is therefore more maneuverable.

I personally have no idea what sort of arcana they utilize to price ships, but it seems quite off quite a bit of the time

The starviper's case is a little more baffling than the e-wing/defender, though, because FFG should be well past the point where they value ordinance at all (They have to have learned from the A-wing and Advance fixes, or maybe they only learned about missiles)

Oh man, I hope they're not still charging a 2 point premium for the ability to add a missile or Torpedo! Unless they overhaul munitions completely, this will always cause waste.

Tomorrow will be my first field test for the Starviper. I'll try the generics and the named pilots. So until then, I'll reserve my judgement. I definetly love the Defender though but doesn't play enough rebel to judge the E-Wing (although I do hate going against Corran).

If there is something I learned from this game is to not judge a ship only by his stats, but also by how it fly (does it fit your playstyle or not) and the role it serves in his faction overall.

I'm of the personal opinion that each factions has his own playstyle and if you wish to dabble in another one playground, you'll pay for it. Durability is to the rebel as the maneuvrability is to the Empire. The Defender is a durable ship and the E-Wing a maneuvrable one. If you compare the Defender to a B-Wing or some other rebel ship, it might seems overprice, but if you compare it to other Imperial craft, it fits a role that is currently lacking (until the Advanced fix). For the E-Wing, the only competition it has in the rebellion for a highly maneuvrable craft is the A-Wing (who, now that I think of it, also got a fix... interesting...). So, I do believe that you might pay a little more for those ship because they are not part of the general faction doctrine. Even though it might be true that the Defender is overpriced, I never felt let down by this ship, it always served the purpose for which I took it for. If I was able to take any ship from any faction, maybe I would not take it as much as I currently do when making an Empire list, but that's not how the game works.

So, when I do compare a ship to another one for value, I do it with a ship from the same faction. What role can this ship fill in my faction that another can't? Not, if only I had access to the B-Wing, I could make this list even better!

The starviper's case is a little more baffling than the e-wing/defender, though, because FFG should be well past the point where they value ordinance at all (They have to have learned from the A-wing and Advance fixes, or maybe they only learned about missiles)

To be honest, I think they have a torpedo or general ordnance fix/refit in the works. I think a forthcoming Aces pack or even Wave VII will address this, and I think they've kept their pricing model consistent with this in mind.

That said, I also believe their pricing model is holistic rather than purely mathematical. Like MajorJuggler says, jousting efficiency isn't everything, and I think a significant portion of playtesting is actually devoted to cost analysis. Whoever they had playtesting the game, it turned out to warrant making the Delta Defender worth 30 points. I feel pretty confident they reached the cost of the StarViper after even more rigorous testing, and something like a to-be-announced fix would influence that process.

It had better be something pretty amazing. Would be awful for the Defender's and Viper's amazing models to go to such waste.

Well, the Viper only really needs to be run as one Guri or Xizor to get its majesty across the table. The Defender's not as BAM! but those brave enough to run them in multiples get some killer looking squads (ion delta, ion delta, soontir )

Well, The Defender, Starviper and E-wing are all ships that you'll pretty much only run 3 generics of - Sure you can run a starviper at 25, but are you running it with autothrusters?

Even then - When you start building and running any of these ships - you're more than likely running one of the elite pilots with a bunch of upgrades, so - you probably have 1 in your fleet anyway.

get some killer looking squads

Isn't it in essence why we love and play this game?

Well, The Defender, Starviper and E-wing are all ships that you'll pretty much only run 3 generics of - Sure you can run a starviper at 25, but are you running it with autothrusters?

Once I get my hand on the main part of my order, I'll definetly try a 4 Starviper team... I'm not sure what to expect from it though... probably an horrible death... it will be a killer looking squad though!

I still think the Elite ships (StarViper, Defender and E-Wing) should have been PS3 and PS5 with an EPT at the current costs. Similar to what they did with Mandalorian Merc (relative to the Imperial version) and Tansaari Point Veteran.

Essentially highly priced small base ships (<25) need to have the PS cost progression truncated, because high cost plus standard PS cost progression is crippling. Mostly this effects generics, but it does have carry over effects for the named pilots. But then again this is really a potential "what if" scenario at design stage rather than a fix per se.