Fanfiction and "original - first party" fiction ?

By MrMonstro, in Rogue Trader

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The thread, in a nutshell. ;)

Aw, it wasn't all bad. I like to think that it at least helped to dispel those die-hard myths about how GW handles its "canon", and that it may have encouraged a few people to try their own ideas, or feel validated in them. :)

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speaking of GW and canon, I'm afraid they did a "White Wolf" with warhammer fantasy.

SPOILERS:

They blew up the entire world!

Posted at

speaking of GW and canon, I'm afraid they did a "White Wolf" with warhammer fantasy.

SPOILERS:

They blew up the entire world!

When was this? Is this is the Warhammer Fantasy forum? (Guess I could go over and search for it easily enough, but figered I'd ask)

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Warning more spoilers ahead.

It happens in Warhammer The End Times: Archaon.

The skaven had already blown up the moon (!) in book 4.

And in book 5 we get the final showdown between Archaon and the Incarnate host: Nagash and a bunch of people who have bonded with one of the winds of magic. This includes Grimgor (incarnate of beasts) and carl france as SIGMAR reborn.

It's not enough. Chaos wins in the end. A 3d chaos rift opens in the old world, and merges with the ones at the north and south poles (the chaos wastes) sucking in and obliterating everything. (And by the time the last thing gets destroyed the chaos gods are going: "borde now what else is on?"

But on the last page there is a line about a lone figure falling trough the void and a "miracle".

Edited by Robin Graves
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As much as I can appreciate the whole "everything and nothing is canon" stance. The bottom line is, it's a cop out, and always has been. It's GW admitting to the fact that they were making up random things and sort of not paying attention (anf probably doing lots of drugs) and it's too much work now to try to make it all make sense.

Like when Jim Butcher threw out the whole "Oh the TV show is an alternate reality of Dresden." response. BS, that's a cop out, that's a translation of "I got paid for the TV rights, now piss off and stop asking me about this."

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It's really not a cop-out. Canon is a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged. This is ostensibly taken by many fictional setting community fans to be a 'firm' collective of works as a base (or litmus test, if you will) to measure other works (fan-fiction, primarily) and what can be accepted by all fans to be of genuine or authentic material.

If the multitude of religious cannot agree on one set of canon among the (arguably) same faith, why would you as a fan of any fictional setting be angered by an inconsistent or nonexistent standard? I see Star Wars being cited as a strong, solidified Canon of works, when in reality it's been consistently overruled or ignored in favor of development on numerous occasions (The Force Unleashed is a good example of a break from previously established rules developed in the Expanded Universe).

In Warhammer 40,000, the developers have gone with a very sensible, 'Nothing is true, everything is permitted' stance. Due to the nature of the setting, it reinforces the settings core essence.

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I feel like what it is depends heavily on perception and preferences. By the writers, this approach seems to be regarded as liberating, possibly simply because a lot of people seem to enjoy the option to pursue their own ideas with as little interference as possible, which I could understand - even though it pains me to see how consistency is sacrificed to this goal.
Renowned Black Library novel author Aaron Dembski-Bowden posted a rather enlightening description here , from which I shall quote a short excerpt:
Yeah, a lot of people prefer situations of clear-cut canon, like Star Wars, where all that jazz is delineated up to 11, but it's wrong to assume "It's all true and nothing is true" is a bug, when it's a feature - or, worse, to assume it's "a marketing strategy" [...] "It's all true and nothing is true" looks, at first, like it's limiting, rather than freeing or empowering. Some people will never, ever prefer it, no matter what. That doesn't mean the guy pointing it out is being defensive about it, just because he happens to see value in it. It took me years to see that value. I like it now, but it took a long-ass time for me to come around to that way of thinking.
Don't get me wrong, I shared the desire for personal clarification for a long time, but once I learned that wasn't how the license worked, it didn't bother me anymore. That's not how the license works. It's not worth my anger, or my insisting that it should work that way. Every creator, contributor, player and reader sees it all in their own way, from a selection of the information offered. 10 years ago, that vagueness infuriated me. Now I think that freedom is awesome. Without it, 40K would suffer severely, given the fact it's a setting with such, uh, colourful roots. Change, clarification, evolution, development... everything that's come since Rogue Trader has come because it's all true and nothing is true. Some bad, some good, all dependent on personal taste. Mostly good, I reckon.
^ And he does have a point. The policy GW has adopted has resulted in so many different versions of 40k that it is bound to appeal stronger to a lot more people. The high fantasy superhero fans are cared for with the exploits of the Horus Heresy novel Primarchs, whilst those who prefer a more gritty take on the setting can stick to the less epic descriptions in White Dwarf and Chapter Approved, et cetera, et cetera. Anyone who finds something they like in the setting will find at least one book or novel that caters to that aspect.
We just have to accept that this policy is not all flowers and sunshine, but does come with some drawbacks - the aforementioned lack in consistency, which is anathema to this officially supported "selective perception".

If the multitude of religious cannot agree on one set of canon among the (arguably) same faith, why would you as a fan of any fictional setting be angered by an inconsistent or nonexistent standard? I see Star Wars being cited as a strong, solidified Canon of works, when in reality it's been consistently overruled or ignored in favor of development on numerous occasions (The Force Unleashed is a good example of a break from previously established rules developed in the Expanded Universe).

Common ground. Having an established standard that everyone can agree to (simply because there is some authority that points out "this is how it's meant to work") makes it so much easier to discuss the setting with other fans. Plus, you simply know what to expect when you buy a setting book or a novel, as there is a very low chance that the contents of the product will contradict what you are used to, and what you might like about this setting.

For example, in the past, seeing something I like being turned into something else was very frustrating to me. These days, I've more or less come to terms with the controversy and the contradictions, but I'm still saddened when a product does not cater to the vision of the setting I "grew up" with and which has kindled my interest in this franchise in the first place.

Also, I suppose it just makes us as well as the books we buy feel more like a part of some greater whole, rather than tens of thousands of personalised mini-bubble-universes.

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If abaddon wasn't true.....then he might be a bogeyman the imperium cooked up to cause fear. And it can be totally true. What if he was a lie the inquisition made up to keep people fearful and complacent? That's actually a good idea.

Sorry if this already came up, but don't the Inquisition try to keep all knowledge about Chaos away from the normal citizenry?

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Most inquisitors do. Most are also trying to stop rebelion and wars from breaking out. Then you have this subgroup within the inquisition called the Istvanians who activly go around making things worse! (because strife leads to progress) so i wouldn't put it past the Inquisition to come up with some boogeyman.

The sad truth of the 40k uinverse is that the imperium hardly needs to make up boogeymen.

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I think this, too, depends on the book you read... I recall public Ecclesiarchy scripture in TT codices explicitly warning against daemons and stuff, and if the Church is teaching this to Farmer Josev, it'd hardly be called a state secret.

Of course, here the cop-out about it being a big galaxy might still apply. There may well be Inquisitors who attempt to suppress this knowledge, and entire worlds where people have no idea, whereas elsewhere in the Imperium it is considered common knowledge. ;)

Edited by Lynata
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Of course, here the cop-out about it being a big galaxy might still apply. There may well be Inquisitors who attempt to suppress this knowledge, and entire worlds where people have no idea, whereas elsewhere in the Imperium it is considered common knowledge. ;)

Yea, it's probably common knowledge on Cadia Prime, and similar worlds adjacent to the Eye of Terror. :lol: :(

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From reading Dark Heresy stuff I would think that move Hiver-worlders have no idea, or think its just a myth. The Inquisition, on the other hand, seem to be the boogymen!