The June/July bannings have gone a long way to changing the environment. By essentially decapitating the top 3 archetypes in the format (Evil Wall, Spiral Lock, and Chun Li) they've taken the first step.

But no amount of bannings can take the final step, and that is the players making a conscious effort to recognize a changing environment and innovating in the face of adversity.

This is the thread to discuss the archetypes which you feel people should be paying attention to now.

The interesting piece is I think you could give a laundry list of different deck types that will be available.

I'm wondering how many new deck types pop up as a result.

I still think that stuff like Zangy Mill, Dark Force Mirage, Akuma, are still all going to be popular deck types.

Well, there are many things that I believe will be seen as the big things people will be doing; Death control being a big one, and I believe good walling will be somewhat popular, however don't discount innovation completely; there are still plenty of people out there who are trying new things at tournaments. Symbol breakdown in my views:

Order - Well, order took a bit of a hit here. Makai is gone, arrow is gone, and chinese is errata'd. I don't think order is completely dead now, by any means though. It still has all of it's lockdown elements and it still has ira spinta. It will still be played quite a bit, I'm sure.

Evil - There are only a few reasons now to play Evil over Death. Evil has finally shifted more towards hybrid and less towards pure control; It has Reverse Flayer in some aggro aspects, and it still has Red Lotus, and BRT. I think evil has a lot of room for innovation that people really have ignored recently. A big part is just nightmare's foundation destruction--there are some silly things out there with Hunger for Souls ibuki, combining with Her Own Agenda, etc. I think evil will still be around, It just can't be played how it once was.

Chaos - Chaos took a bit of a hit here. Forethought was a huge piece in it's puzzle, and so was Lord of the Makai. I really don't know what to say about this, I kind of swore off looking at chaos ever since my old cervantes.

Good - Good didn't change except for the spike hit. It got boosts if anything, I mean, bitter rivals is gone! Good has so many amazing reversals that it can run. It has Darkness Blade, Heel Snipe, Feline Spike in Felicia, the list can go on and on. With rejection gone, I think raphael off good could make a little bit of a scene with fight or flighting darkness blade or siegfried's earth divide.

Life - Life is kind of just sitting over there in the corner. It took the rejection ban hit, and really still needs a little work, I think. People might be able to find something to do with it, but it'll take a lot of innovation--which is, ofcourse, what we're looking for here.

Death - Death lost NOTHING and gained everything. The problems death had was simply that evil had pieces it didn't--double the olcadan's defense that evil had, chesters, brt, BR, etc. All of those are gone. Death has the best control of everything out there, and an amazing lineup to boot. I think we'll see death as one of the most prominent symbols after this, to be honest.

Fire - The banning of rejection was a better boost to fire than the banning of bitter rivals hurt if, I think. Hilde may make a scene now, and I think about face will start seeing some sideboard action. Even then, hilde off of any of it's symbols, so I really shouldn't be listing her under fire. Fire has some amazing tools, I really expect fire akuma to make a big showing, I mean, sardines can just replace tiger fury, and he'll still be "reversaling" spintas. Fire also has Spinta/Mark of the Beast/Midnight Launcher/Knight Breaker/Dragon's Flame/Reverse Flayer as some of the best attacks out there.

Water - Arch could probably cover water a bit more than me, I need to look into water a good bit more now, and I definitely plan to. I really think striking thunder -> yi shan's tiger claw -> master's challenge -> felicia form -> spike is going to be some silliness at some point though.

Earth - Earth has always been a very good and very underrated symbol. It has a lot of negation and anti control stuff going on, discard, blanking, I just don't think people are going to explore this symbol like they should.

Air - Air is well, air. It lost some, but I think people will still try to make it work off Olexa and Mignon. I think people will see the bannings and just not play it for a while till someone comes and sweeps up something and people realize it's still good.

All - All just took a huge hit, but mirage -> monster lariet i think could still make a pretty interesting showing, we'll see.

Void - Void is really getting here, I really want to see things happen with this, and one way it worked was with akuma and heelsnipe/spiral arrow, and that obviously just got hit. It still as a lot of punch though, close throw and martial arts champion are back, that's nice, and it didn't get hit by any of the bannings aside from spiral arrow, we'll see how this goes. I'll try to make void work still, but I really doubt many others will, unless it's some quirky tri or quad symbol mill deck *cough*.

Basically, I'm expecting to see Water, Death, and Good decks, a bit of Evil and Order from people still clutching to it, but Death will likely be the most prominent.

I'm looking at Zang-mill as a strong deck...

Also, I think my new mitsu deck is going to rock face...

My guess is that Earth Leona will be top tier along with Death(probably Gill). She has amazing synergy with Hungry for Battle.

That and Double Grounder Beta is the new Feline Spike.

EDIT: Wrong tab post.

Bowser Minion said:

all of your hard locks are gone, and yet mine remain! bwahahaha.

BRT + A New Low + Mujin Kyaku Karin ftw!

Antigoth said:

I've got to say that aside from your Akuma, almost none of the popular deck types seem to hit our playgroup ever. Perhaps a couple, I mean, I even ran Hanzo kick loop, but when I saw how popular it was the day later, I sadly took the deck apart.

Eithinis said:

Heh, my thoughts exactly. The instant I saw rejection gone, I wrote up a decklist for a new raph. I had one previously, and it was my favourite deck, but so often it would be rejected or forethought'd into dust.

Church said:

Our Meta is a weird, yet nice little place. Because players try different stuff usually, and we try and encourage creativity. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Evil was not hit as hard as people are thinking. It lost Chester's, Bitter (which it only needed 2-3 of anyways), and Rejection.

That's honestly not saying much. It still has Red Lotus to fend off the (unfortunately) legal Ira-Spinta, all its kill switches, and all of its characters. As such, Akuma was not hurt by the bans =D

Anyways, instead of listing archetypes, I'll simply list the effects of the bannings, and/or what's going to happen because of them:

Bitter - Evil's going to have to return to Ways of Punishment, and All and Fire pretty much get shafted here. Speed pumps, throws, and a barrage of assaults I suppose.
Fei Long's - Although I wished they'd change Hanzo, banning the Kick only means that Hanzo is going to have to return to how he should be played: EARTH THROWDOWN BABY! Back Hanzo up with some Earth throws you know will be added to the bottom of the deck and hustle!
Juni's - Order sure has lost a lot from the entire list, and this is a big one. No more lockdown, and with Makai gone, quite frankly, using Spinta off Air or Fire is looking a lot smarter. Still, Juni's going means Order might have to become more aggressive with Lunar Slash and Kuzuryu, not to mention the new errata for Chinese Boxing.
Rejection - Evil, start blocking lol.
Forethought - Although it's equally as guilty, I've heard more people win matches due to Anti K' than Forethought...
Feline - Finally a TRUE reason to run Felicia if there ever is one: give her one of the most reliable kill buttons.
Tiger Fury - I don't recall Sagat ever seeing play, so...

Anyways...

1. My favorite symbol Good loves all these changes. While it loses the lovely Feline (unless you're Good Felicia), it still has Dragon's Flame, and anything boosted by Savage Fighter (whoa Mark of the Beast 13 damage), Spinning Beat (which can now survive Bitter), and anything with Fight or Flight (Darkness Blade).
2. Void was helped out tremendously from these bans, and I think that article about what's wrong with Void will be made happier by the news.
3. Felicia should be played at an all time high. Between having two amazing abilities (one of the most overpowered momentum generation abilities ever), unique access to Feline Spike as a kill, and access to Aquakinesis, Gorgeous Team's GF E Commit, etc, she ought to be ran.
4. For Fanboy's sake, Yoshitora might be able to see play now that Chinese Boxing has been aggressively-aligned and Juni's Spiral is gone. Yoshitora has built-in control, and with stuff like Combo and Spinning Beat going through without being Bitters'd, he can use his E to the heavens without fear.

That is all.

Path of the Master legal? Check.

Rejection banned? Check.

Bitter Rivals banned? Check.

All the pieces are in place, think I'm gonna bring sexy back with some Big Beats Wind Aggro.

Order decks can just do Spinta/Kuzu/Fweem like they used to do.

Spinta gives them momentum for Kuzu which baits the blocks for the deadly fweem

Air/Chaos Fio decks might see a rise in play, generating momentum+hand strippage=mini (but still deadly) Defender loops.

The format is once again slow enough to allow Victor to bring his broken ass(et) back into the environment.

The fastest deck in the format is probably Fire Zi Mei using Wonderworld Comics and White Magic to quickly generate momentum for Fury of the Ancients.

Water is nigh unkillable, but lacks proper kill conditions beyond walling up and Sardine'ing you to death.

EarthWall Sagat has the potential to be very powerful due to his tutor ability, but with the prevalence of Pommel Smash and Heel Snipe I do not think he will see play all that much. I can assure you though, that past the 4th turn he's pretty much unkillable unless you go infinite.

Path of the Master is a really good kill condition and I am sad that no one uses it more.

Good/Order Hilde to win worlds :3

For so long as direct momentum generation continues to exist in Fio's symbols, Fio will always be high/top tier. She is unaffected by anti-discard, and while she doesn't have Feline, the list of other kills are numerous.

You know who else should automatically see more play?

Blanka.

so instead of forethought, order will be stacking spirit of athenes now? T_T

Just Doin' Work said:

No.

Dear god no.

Anything that gives the opponent what is essentially a free card is bad.

Because of the June bannings involving Lord Of The Makai, any character who can supply their own momentum becomes instantly playable. This includes Mignon, Blanka, Guy, Kyo, even Hsien-Ko.

With Olcadan's Mentoring gone, players will be playing much less of cards like Makai High Noble, Blinding Rage etc because they won't be needed quite so much. (Even though they are most definately still playable) This allows characters like Nightmare/Night Terror to take more of a stand without them sitting twiddling their thumbs.

With Chesters Backing gone, players will have to work harder to retain their life totals. This means that players who already do that, like Mai and Sakura will be worth taking a look at.

Now, with the July bannings, even more has opened up. Far more than has been closed off, most certainly.

Bitter Rivals' banning seems to have changed the meta most. No specific character takes a huge advantage from this so much as the attacks you can now play without fear. Spinning Beat, Siegfried's Earth Divide, Double Grounder Beta, Dragon's Flame, anything with either a Combo prerequisite or any other previous attack requirement (like Spinning Beat or Neo Raging Storm) becomes so much more playable and opens the diversity of the decks themselves to a whole new level.

Chun-Li's banning means, well, not an awful lot really, except that at least there'll always be a new spot in Top 8 for someone else Especially other Air characters who have been so overshadowed by her, like Mignon, Vega (yes, THAT Vega), Soiree, Felicia etc

Forethought has numbed a lot of pain from Order/Chaos decks, so people will have to think a bit more before they build a deck off one of those two resources, as they won't be able to just throw that in. Perhaps other cards like Spirit Of Athens, Broken Promise, or even Sophitia herself could see more play because of this.

Rejection is another big one to go, as it means that the idea of the one-shot kill deck isn't completely dead. This will pave the way for decks like R. Mika with Sardine's Beach Special or Sagat with Tiger Fury to show up.

Spiral Arrow gives another hard one to Order, but again, another necessary one. However, there are miniature versions of it that could start to see more play in it's abscence. This may allow Prankster and Juni herself to see some more play.

Fei Long's Forward Kick was something banned for a pretty specific reason. Legitimate, but specific. Perhaps now we'll see less of Hanzo, but when he is played, perhaps he'll be played the way he was intended. As a hard-ass aggro machine who clears his card pool at all times

The errata's are pretty obvious as to what they will entail for the game. But people should not see it as their characters becoming less playable with Spike and Fury going, as much as underplayed Characters in Felicia and Sagat becoming more playable. Maybe we'll see 7HS Felicia actually do something worthwhile for a change

I'm going to look forward to playing starter deck Siggy this monday.

Hilde off of Good and Order loses literally nothing from the bannings and has a very consistent Turn 2 Kill.

All hail Hilde.

I think this coming week im gonna play straight up evil agro... been forever since ive seen those two words together.

death as a symbol just got so broken. also raph and hilde can now kill whenever the feel like it. i think adon may actualy see some play now.

trane said:

Anyone who can will sideboard Deadly Ground Vega for just that reason.

Cascade said:

Nah, Tag Along will still be run, as will Strife's (moreso now w/o BR gone, looky looky is a tech I can't live without). Healer, FoF, Holding, Fast Food Eater, etc.

I've never used Rejection competitively, and I've never had a problem defending against early agro. It's just a matter of holding the right blocks or getting the right cards into play earlier.

- dut

trane said:

I'm not sure I'd say that aggro is somehow alive; people thought aggro came alive with Set 12, but we all saw how untrue that was.

As I'd written before, aggro used to come by 3 names: ***Adon***, *Xianghua*, and **Twelve**. They all had a large handsize, decent health, and free aggressive abilities.

We have some similar candidates, which you brought up, but nothing quite like them yet.

Air Adon makes me smile. Jaguar Thousand needs to see play. I mean, come on, nobody's going to live through that as a reversal. Double its speed, double its damage, easy pickins...

Yes, 10 check on a reversal.