Say that Finn is in a location and there is a monster in the sky. No investigators are in the streets. The next mythos card is a gate burst with a moon symbol. If Finn uses his slippery ability to move into the street, would the monster in the sky descend on him? If he moves before the monster, then clearly the monster would descend on him. If he moves after the monster, then the monster would not move. But if they move simultaneously?

I say it's up to Finn, because he's the only one not being forced to move. If he wants to move first to get a Mi-Go to land on him, fine. If he wants to move after the Flying Polyp sees nothing to land on, fine.

Alternatively, you go to the standard way of resolving timing disputes: the first player decides.

jgt7771 said:

I don't see how Finn's move being optional lets him choose the timing of it. In the ordinary movement phase, an investigator's movement is optional, but that doesn't mean you can decide if you are going to move before or after another investigator. The turn order still holds.

Honestly, I think the nature of the ability is to avoid monsters. They move at the same time, so a flying monster would see nothing in the street to swoop down on. That's what I do, anyway.

I'd say no. You check the board to see what should move then carry out all the movement, to do otherwise is liable to give rise to complicated chain reactions depending upon which cards get published down the line.

Nice try, but that MiGo stays in the sky

Just my 2c - Mariana the ex-nun cultist

... and what if Finn is in a street area - with or without monsters there - where would the flying monster go then? Land on him, or land on where Finn was before he drifted with the moon?

noth1ng said:

I'd say they move at the same time, the sky thing moves to where it sees Finn at the start of the movement. Finn's player may chose to move Finn elsewhere at the same time or stay where he was. In the first case the monster misses him, in the second he can play catch-Mi-Go.

Good questions these although for once I'm quite clear about how I personally would interpret things

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

avec said:

Not exactly sure how monsters fit into the players' "turn order". In most cases, the Investigators don't move at all during the Monster Movement Phase of the Mythos Phase; now we have a single exception. And much like "Does Kate work in the Streets or in Other Worlds?", I do not believe in restricting what makes an Investigator "special" by any means unless it is definitively stated.

A long time ago, none of us cared about which monster moved when within the phase; if they were called upon to move, you would move them, one at a time. Finn suddenly has all of us debating how we're supposed to "time" the Monster Movement Phase, and I say it's unnecessary. Just move them all one at a time like we've been doing for thousands of years, and the Finn player may choose at any time to interrupt between chits to activate his move. With the new board conditions, continue moving, one at a time, any monster that hadn't moved yet, and if Finn's new position affects any of them left, so be it.

I take it back. Now I agree with Mariana.

Debated it with my coworkers, and a true layperson with no knowledge of the rules brought up the issue of time. Using the Finn-in-Street, Monster-in-Sky example: "The monster would notice Finn in the Street and start its descent, but in the time it took the monster to get down there, Finn has already booked it to the next neighborhood. As you describe Finn, he seems shady enough to be noticed for a second and then get undercover enough to disappear, so the monster would just end up confused on the pavement." A little paraphrased, but that's the gist. Using the other Finn-in-Location example, the Flyer wouldn't see anyone in the streets and would flap along on its merry way, while Finn made his way out into the Streets.

So, yeah, you sorta take a "snapshot" of the board, print it out, and draw little John Madden lines all over how each linebacker would move according to that snapshot. Then everyone moves simultaneously.

I guess your headstrength goads me sometimes, Mariana...

jgt7771 said:

I do too, I think. Though if monsters move to where they see Finn at the start of the (monster) movement, that seems logically equivalent to saying that Finn can take his movement after the monsters have finished moving.

I think I agree with all of that, but what about the case where a moon monster is already in the same location as Finn and a moon comes up.

If Finn wasn't there, the monster would move.

If Finn couldn't move, the monster wouldn't move either, as monsters don't move when they are already in the same space as an investigator.

If everything is simultaneous:

The monster never moves, because it starts the turn seeing Finn, while Finn can move away if he wants.

Is that how it is supposed to work, or should moon signed monsters be able to follow Finn?

Honestly, yes, I now think that is how it's supposed to work. That's who Finn is. He doesn't have the same restrictions monsters do. While the monster knows "meat" is near and won't leave it, Finn still knows all the shortcuts to slip away. He's an "Elusive" Investigator.

That's how I see it too. I think the rule is that Finn moves after the monsters move. So a monster that starts on the same space as Finn wouldn't move. Then, once the monsters are finished moving, Finn moves.

jgt7771 said:

May I present my card: Mental Suggestion

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

Good question Twilight

jgt7771 said:

And good answer jgt7771. "Elusive Invetsigator", I like that.

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

The alternate, simpler method is to rule that Finn always moves first. It would make him all but immune to flying and aquatic ninja attacks, but conversely he can't use his ability to escape from Moon-symbols or monsters with tracking that were in his location and thus "have his scent".

Moving first isn't simpler than moving last. Also, if he moved first, he would move to a street area. Then, when flying monsters move, they would descend on him. He's only immune to flying movement if he moves last.

The same is true of aquatic movement, more or less. If he moves last, an aquatic monster would first move to his location and then Finn would move off of that location.

The only way moving last would get him into trouble is if he moved on to a space that coincidenally had a monster on it. For example, if he moved onto a street area that had both another investigator and a flying monster that had descended on that other investigator. That's not going to happen very often.

avec said:

That's why I said all but immune. Moving first, Finn can only be attacked by a flying monster if he started in the streets or chose to move there. Likewise with aquatic monsters.

But if you move on a moon or circle symbol, you follow an arrow. This will always lead you to the streets, making you vulnerable to flying monsters.

Jedit said:

I wouldn't call it simpler, alternate, yes.

Personally, I'd just stick with one ruling through a game - can't really decide what would be best.

Another alternative would be that Finn in Slippery Movement is not considered to be part of the spot he was on - meaning the monsters where he starts have no reason to stay there, and flying, aquatic and tracking monsters just don't follow him.

That would ward off flying monsters, but wouldn't allow him to slip away from Moon (and Circle?) monsters in the same spot.

I already think that a consitent rule whether to move Finn first or last makes more sense, myself...

avec said:

As I understand it, Finn's ability is optional. He can choose to remain indoors if he wishes.

Of course. I just don't understand why you think that, if Finn moves before the monsters move, he would be all but immune to flying monster attacks. He would be all but immune to flying monsters if he moved last.

avec said:

If he moved last, he would be completely immune to all monsters unless both his origin and destination had monsters in. That wold be just a little bit overpowered.

Jedit said:

An argument could be made for that, but that's not what you said. You said that Finn would be all but immune to flying monsters if he moved first. I disagree.

Also, moving last wouldn't make Finn completely immune. He can only move if the mythos card has a moon symbol, which means he can only use his ability 1/3 of the time. If he passes his personal story, he can use his ability 2/3 of the time, but passing it is non-trivial, especially since he has a low fight score. And even if he could use his ability on every mythos phase, it's still not as powerful as Wendy's ability.