It's not hard to be right when you're pointing out the obvious.

And for Shinji, it's not hard at all to be the loudest in the crowd pointing out the obvious.

Yessir.

Eh, just the usual, asshattery is given where asshattery is deserved. I do feel vindicated, however, that I had to put up with months of, "You're a troll", "you don't know what you're talking about", etc, only for FFG to pretty much do what I would have done if I were an employee and had control the banned list.

Obviously I feel like I've been proven right, but really, it wouldn't be Shinji if it were some sort of civil, humble, "Well, I'm certainly glad that FFG banned the problematic cards."

Nope...I gotta yuck it up =D

See, but you are a troll. In most cases you are the very definition of a troll.

Many players wanted these cards gone as well. It's not about personal vindication for us either, it's about attempting to facilitate a better play environment.

You are welcome to spout off about "vindication" all you want, but please realize all you're doing is making a bigger fool of yourself.

You are also welcome to hide behind the shield of "yucking it up", but the reality of it is that your ego prevents you from taking even the smallest of slights, and the best knee jerk reaction is to troll in response. You have taken some unnecessary flames the past couple of weeks BUT your reputation makes it very hard for people to tolerate you even when you are attempting to be civil.

Don't worry, you were me when I first joined the STG boards. Eventually you'll get over it.

Playing in the UK, we had a regional just recently that did include last months bannings, and I'll be honest, I do agree with Steve that more action was necessary, and we got everything we could have wanted from this SotG. The bannings were dead on, the errata's are brilliant (didn't see Tiger Fury coming, but in hindsight, it's good), HOWEVER, Tekken being held back 2 months is a major worry. We also haven't heard anything about the overhaul of the OP as we were told before, nor were we given any spoilers for Tekken (although I can see the reason for that, seeing as it won't be released for Worlds). I worry for new players is all. Although saying that, the Fight Night kits seem to be pretty successful in sorting that out to some extent. I just hope thats enough for the time being to pull people in....

Isn't the biggest problem with Chun-Li right now a little card called "Ira-Spinta"...? At least, that's what people keep mentioning.

I also see people mention it's not very balanced and causes lots of problems....

So why wasn't it touched? They'd rather ban Chun-Li's only good character card instead of...one of Jedah's attacks? Meh.

ira spinta is needed as a method to control assets(look at good stuff like misterious stance, assassination arts) and it keeps the game from getting bogged down.

sir_shajir said:

quoted for trof.

Ira-Spinta is around to make sure that Good can't sit behind a wall and mill you out with Deadly Ground/Flashy Leg Work/Heel Snipe. And I guess so that Akuma can deal with Destiny somehow

You will never in a million years convince me Ira-Spinta is overpowered, it will not happen, if you break the card down just a little bit it so obviously not overpowered it's silly.

Lets do this.

1 - It's numbers. a 5 difficulty(reasonably high) 3 speed(slow) for 4(low damage) 2 control check(a bad control check) with a +1 mid block(good block, throw(good keyowrd to have)

a 5/2 4 damage throw is downright bad statistically, BAD plain out. It's effect better be amazing to compensate, because this is a extremely easy to Block and Reverse attack.

2 - It's effect. I get to stick two cards from your staging area of my choice into your momentum(HOLY CRAP!). In exchange, you get to stick one card from my staging area into my momentum(Wow, a pretty serious drawback right?). The effect is worded in such a manner that allows you to stick 1 card from my staging area into my momentum, even if you negate my effect(unlike olcldans for example). This is a strong effect, but it is a two for 1, I'm the person playing the 2 check attack, aren't I supposed to benefit from doing so? I still lose the best card in my staging area, you just lose two. Also I'm giving you 2 momentum to use for whatever costs you may(or may not have) associated with momentum in your deck.

So net effect, I gain 1 momentum and lose my best card, you gain 2 momentum and lose your two best cards, at 5 diff/2 control.

Not reallly overpowered if you ask me,

3- does it fit the logic of the bannings? If Ira spinta is the Only attack in your deck, can you kill people not impossible in certain situations but unlikely, this is a attack that is ran to compliment other attacks it is not a OHK card by any stretch and it does not win the game the second it hits the board. It is not a discouragement to playing attacks and even is extremely vunerable to reversals. I dont see it as glaringly overpowered and it allows attacking decks to get through tough defenses.

Ira Spinta is not a problem card, people just dont like losing their board so they complain anyways.

At US nationals, James hata got rid of 2 blood runs true with 1 of zhao dyou's attacks... i wasn't a happy camper...

Twillight embrace is amazing, no? I view it as the evil I-spin. The trick against I-spin is to just run foundations to pass checks (i.e agro) and find a use for the momentum your opponent so gracisouly gave you. I know alot of people dont use momentum costing cards, but if you know the card is gonna be run find some use for the momentum you are getting. In evil and chaos I usually run visions of destiny. In effect my opponent just gave me two uses of shinobi tradition. With an active path of the master that is card draw on top of readying and choosing my checks.. My death Tira ive screwed around with also doesnt mind. Midnight launcher as a multiple? yes please!

Ukyo Sakazaki Classic said:

Wow that's a pretty poor argument.

Homme Chapeau said:

yeah im pretty sure gettin hyoko-sen'd after just playing foundations on turn 2 isnt very balanced either

failed2k said:

Let's look at this now

1. 5 diff is not reasonably high it is average. If you look at how the control checks are on foundations then you can see that it is average. Think about it. The most common CC in your deck is probably a 5 and it probably is after all of these bannings. This means that you will have to commit maybe 1~2 foundations to play 2~3 of them.

The stats on the card are average given how FFG has been treating throws lately. That is to say, either it has good~great stats and no other/bad effect or having average~bad stats and a good~great effect. FFG is trying hard to avoid another Chain Throw and I think they are doing good at this. Also it is a throw. So even if it does crap dmg, the problem is that it is guaranteed to do the dmg and if you are looping the dang thing then that dmg will add up. Also while I know it is a 2CC, it is just 1CC different from a 3. Answer me honestly how often is it that your attacks bank on just 1 point of difference in CC? Yes, I know that at the start of the game it is extremely important but the game needs to have some kind of counterbalance for having a good effect.

2.Serious drawback?! What drawback? You get a free non-negatable momentum plus you have a nearly guaranteed damage and your opponent looses 2 cards of your choosing from their staging area. Sure they get the momentum too but they are forced to get it which can proove a problem when you have 2 or more of them comming at you. Also it is not always a clear cut choice of what is the "best card" in your opponent's staging area. If someone plays spinta and your looking at, pre-bannings, a Chester's, a Chinese Boxing, and a Kabuki Artist then which do you choose? The answer is the Kabuki to stop them from getting another spinta, assuming that they have one in their discard. You make this choice, not because it is the "best card" in their staging area but because it will stop them from getting more spinta's. The card ends up forcing your choice for you.

Kinda overpowered there, if you ask me.

3. Is it bannable? While it can't be the only attack in your deck, if your deck is based around your opponent not having a staging area, then you can guarantee a victory. If you get a good loop going then your opponent would not be capable of playing many, if any, attacks. Last I checked that was kinda needed in most deck to achieve a win. I have played a good Spinta loop based deck and it was brutal. Having attackes be turned into dead cards cuz you don't have the foundations to play them is a pain regardless of how many attacks you have. Also, with the exception of 3 cards that are legal in the game, this doesn't get through tough defences...it gets through all defenses. Vulnerable to reversals? How many people actually play reversals? With the exception of Spike, Spirral Arrow, Shadow Blade and Darkness Blade I can't think of any other Reversals that have seen regular play in the game. Furthermore with Bitter around reversals just have not seen any play. Only now with Bitter banned is there a chance for some other reversals to see play.

Spinta is a problem card. People just don't like being able to do almost nothing about losing thier board so they complain.

Sorry Failed2k, I'm not trying to mock you. Well maybe a little, but my main goal is to show my reasons why I feel that your points are not valid and you should feel that it is bannable.

As far as the bannings/erratas themselves. I have no problem with any of them except for Forethought and only because I just got my first and only 4 in the mail just yesterday. I about cried when I saw that.

koreymfh said:

You're right in saying that all they lost from these bans was Bitter (although the previous bans of Chester's an Olcadan's hurt it inmensely), but by JUST losing Bitter Rivals, they can't simply push attacks through with just it, allowing the other slots in the deck that would be used by more control pieces to be reserved for comparatively-overcosted speed pumps. With three of its pieces gone, it needs to change its deck to accomodate ways to push attacks through since Chain Throw is gone. Thus, Evil's control loses a lot and as a result, Evil loses some of its INCEDIBLE consistency.

Evil is not the top resource right now as a result.

Suija said:

1 foundation is only 1 foundation different from 2 foundations, and unlike the Spinta player you're not clogging your card pool, leaving yourself open to a reversal, or blowing a precious 2cc slot for a card that simply generates mild board advantage. Ira-Spinta is like Roundhouse Kick; it's purpose is to generate board advantage equal to playing a foundation (end result: player has 1 more foundation than his opponent compared to before the card was played), while decreasing complexity instead of adding to it.

If your deck gets run over by Ira-Spinta board control, put more cheap foundations in it, and maybe less orange/blue cards so that you'll always have 4 or more foundations in your hand/on the board. Or, build an aggro deck that can inflict some pain on the Ira-Spinta user without needing a pile of grey cards to back it up.

On another note, what you say about the ambiguity of the "best card" in your opponent's staging area goes both ways -- what are the best two cards in the victim's staging area? While you might say, "well, it's a Spinta loop, so he's going to get rid of ALL my cards" - there's an easy fix, play more foundations in your deck. And I can't see how adding more difficult decisions to a game can possibly be construed as a negative.

It just entertains me that the card I saw most often in Nationals or was built around is still not banned. I find BRT more obnoxious than Olcadan's and I would feel safe in betting that at least 90% of the decks at Nationals had it in their deck or built around it. I still feel that, even with all the recent bannings and errata, I need to either include it or build around cards like destiny. That really cramps deck creativity. On the whole, though, several of these bannings mean that decks that don't run BRT may have a chance in surviving and just possibly may win one or two games.

Suija said:

Suija said:

I'm not buying a single one of your counterpoints really at all.

5 diff is "average" only in the sense that is your standard for a lead-in attack. playing multiple 5 diff cards, while having the ready foundations on your board shoved into your momentum, is no easy task, I promise. The throw stats are typically a bit lower, but there is so pretty high on the curve 2 check throws in the block, ira spinta statistically is weak for a 2 check no matter how you slice it. It would be average for a 3 check statistically. Which is okay because the 2 is the justification for the effect.

If you don't consider the significance of flipping a two early game at a bad time, that is on you not me. A 2 check is a strong drawback, there is a reason why most competitive decks don't run more then 4-6 2 or less checks and if 4 of them are spinta, that means you are sacrificng that slot for them so they **** well better be worth it.

The damage is only a surething if you don't play any way to handle throws, any sort of damage reduction or things like oh say, the effect on rev's calling or Tiras contract, hell even fast food lover(very underatted). Things like Amy's assistance or Zangiefs Enhance can shut it down completely without even trying.

And if losing the best card on your board isn't a serious cost, then I don't know what is, Discarding a momentum? Destroying a foundation? Commiting a foundation? Discarding a card? All less relavant costs drastically. Losing the best foundation on your board is ALWAYS a serious drawback, even if it becomes momentum. Saying the card chooses for you is stupid, you make the choice, sometimes it is obvious, and sometimes it isnt.

People don't play reversals? Seriously? Feline spike was the MOST PLAYED ATTACK IN THE GAME FOR THE LAST 8 MONTHS. I've had my spintas blocked into a feline spike like 50 times in this play season. Oh yeah Heel Snipe also, pretty good card I've heard.

Only 3 legal way's to stop the card? Really? I've seen more then that. While there isn't a abundance of them, there is a few including the universal stopper.

Seal of Cessation(everyone can use it), No memories(super viable, deck staple), Red Lotus of the Sun(Super viable, deck staple), Evil Doer Destroyer(Very Viable, nearly a staple), and Calming the Mind(almost TOO effective in stopping spinta, literally turns the spinta off without a whole lot of ways of being dealt with).

Also there is things like BRT, Akuma and Andrews R, and even things like Blocks with breaker on them(it's a mid zone throw any and every breaker will hit it) as ways to discourage them from even hitting the table.

When it comes down to it, spinta is a 2 check that gives the player playing the card a 2 for 1 advantage. Isn't that the point of being the person with the 2 check attack in your deck and playing it? To gain some advantage? Most cards with 1 or 2 checks and strong effects dont even HAVE built in drawbacks. Things like Darkness Blade and Twilight Embrace give HUGE numerical advantages with no drawbacks beyond difficulty and Check. Spinta both has a built in cost, will not outright win you the game, and a bad check.

That to me is completely unbannable and balanced.

Archimedes said:

I realize I wasn't alone in wanting these bans, and that some people spoke out as well as I did (albeit, not nearly as obnoxiously as I did). Believe me, lol, I wasn't wanting bans to prove I'm intelligent; I wanted them because they needed to happen for our game's sake.

It's astonishing when people can't decipher when I'm obviously being facetious, and speaking to make people laugh and enjoy themselves, versus speaking truly, and from the heart.

Any time I post anything that looks egotistical, arrogant, or "trolling", it is meant for comedic and humorous purposes, and nothing more. I've said this continuously, and yet despite admitting my ego is but a fake persona I take on to make people laugh (think: Steven Colbert), people still seem to ignore that, and take me for serious.

If people want to be ignorant and put my "reputation" before my logic, or my post, or whatever, than that's their own fault. I post what I post.

Yes, a lot of the time my opinions are negative, loud, and cause a controversy, but I only post them because I know that I'm right. While I may not be an FFG employed card designer, I have designed almost as many fan cards as FFG has designed real cards, and as a card designer, I can spot what is necessary to be banned or errata'd at the drop of a hat.

As far as Ira-Spinta goes...

...CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS CARD?

There is NOTHING balanced about Ira-Spinta. Its cost can be overriden by ANY method of momentum tutor (From the Mouse, Hybrid Style, Fatal Disruptor, character's abilities such as Seong Mi-Na, B Jenet, etc), and is selective removal of any 2 non-attack cards (and as always, it doesn't matter what the cards do: it's just as simple as, "Oh hey, I'll pick those two cards").

It doesn't matter how many counters you list that stop the card, because the same could be said about any of the other cards that got banned this month.

Wafflecopter said:

Touche on the foundation part. However the main difference is that unlike the 2 CC the loss of 2 foundations is detrimental throughout the rest of the game. Where the 2 CC may mess up a single turn. Before you say it yes I know that 1 turn can cost you a game but that is the risk that you take. Saying that "unlike the Spinta player you're not clogging your card pool leaving yourself open to a reversal" is like saying that unlike the attacking player you you're not clogging your card pool leaving yourself open to a reversal. Unless you ditch your opponent's hand then by playing an attack in general you leave yourself open to a reversal. That's nothing special to Spinta. While I will admit that the end result of the turn is the same foundation count wise the problem is that those cards that I played are being removed. It is not always the # of foundations but whice foundations remain. It is for this reason that Owlface was so powerful. The number of foundations that your opponent had never changed. Only what foundation was out changed.

Wafflecopter said:

The deck I spoke of was not always ran over by Spinta but it was still brutal. The numbers on the deck were 27 non-grey (12 orange, 8 blue, 7 green) out of 60. It was a hybrid deck that was capable of winning dispite Spinta. However there were still those matches where Spinta did dominate me. It was a coin flip when I lost or won. I have also played agro decks against spinta decks too. Even they fall to a good spinta deck if the little bit of counter control that they have is dumped into their momentum buy the spinta deck.

On that other note. Yes it does go both ways but it is a heck of a lot easier to make that choice when you get 2 choices. Also you can only play so many foundations before your deck either gets huge or you have to loose good non-grey cards to compinsate for grey hate.

I love all the bans but i'm thinking more and more lately, huge damage/speed pumps are going to win worlds probably. like you can just play a throw and fof it, play heel snipe before to tap holding ground or whatever. i mean idk there are counters, but some things could be an otk.

like hilde and heel snipe, raphael and darkness blade/his throw etc.

tons of crazy aggro things out there.

Which is why Spiritual Center needs to see play again. Talk about a card that fell off the map =/

Stone Mail's still legal too.

Eesh, my Ibuki deck just took a MAJOR hit with the combination of the two bannings.

Scott Gaines said:

I agree, agro is back alive and well.

The thing is, why is this bad? In order to play the huge damage/speed pumps you almost invariably have to run alot of 2s or 1s even.

Gosh knows I could drop 24 damage with a ready Yang, his attack (nisho) + speed + kung fu + cobra checking 5 -> 3 -> 5 on first/second turn no questions asked.

Risk = reward. The bannings take away the reward without risk function of the game (Hanzo... Tiger Fury... even Spike, albeit a 1 check, did not demand a lot of other low check cards to turn into an instant kill).

There will still be OTK, there always will be, it is making the OTK unreliable, forcing it to take longer or rely on crazy checking that the bannings have more or less addressed. And besides, OTK from agro is expected, OTK from a control deck that has spent the first 10 turns building a wall and ensuring a flawless victory is an entirely different thing altogether.

You can even slot Chun-li with the more reward for no risk equation. Namely, failing a big attack on the opponents turn, or building on the opponent's turn to facilitate passing big attacks on your own, is what put her ahead of the rest. She could come back from bad checks becuase she played more cards on average than any other character.

Perhaps the most hidden benfit Chun-li provided was the ability to rid itself of a card to draw an extra card come next turn. The added discard or play of a card during the opponents turn is like an added discard during review step, allowing quicker access to the deck and cards she needs... i.e. she wasn't even really a 7 hs?!?!

- dut

failed2k said:

I don't know where or what block your looking at but in this block there is only 1 card with throw that has 4 or less diff and 5 or more damage. There are 12 attacks that have 4 or less diff of these there are 4 with 3 or greater CC, 9 cards with 5 diff (note that there are only 5 of these with 5 or greater dmg regardless of CC) of these there are 5 with 3 or greater CC and there are 32 atks with 6 or greater diff of these 6 have 3 or greater CC. I would say that mathematically speaking saying that its stats are average is being quite generous. If anything looking at it from a math standpoint then its stats are quite good. This data is taken from THD.

I never said that flipping a 2 early game is not bad. Rather I'm saying that if you need a high CC flip an atk then the diff btwn a 2 and a 3 is not that bad.

As I said what is the best card on your board is relative to the situation. What may seem to be the best card in that certain situation may not be the best in another. When I said that the card was chosen for you I was referring to the situation that I was talking about. Sometimes the choice is easy, but in most of the situations that I've been in it has not. If your deck is reliant on a single card in your staging area at that time then it may not be a good time to be playing spinta. If your always in that situation then maybe it is time to look more closely at your deck cuz if you always need a certain foundation combination such that your opponent can easily see what the "best card" is then you shouldn't play Spinta

Also if you read my post then you will notice that I did list Spike thank you. Though I did forget about Heel Snipe. Sorry no one has any in our area so I didn't think about it

I did forget about Seal of NO. Again sorry about that it just slipped my mind. I'm at work as I type this so I have to do it a bit at a time so all I can say is...OOOOPPPPSSSS. BTW all calming the mind does is delay the effect. It does not in any other way stop the effect. Sorry guy that means that there is 4 legal cards that stop it. Big deal I was 1 off.

If you notice I said that there are only 3 (excuse me 4) ways to stop Spinta. I did not say that there were only 4 ways to stop you from playing spinta. It is irrelivent if Spinta never touches the board. I just simply did not include cards that would stop spinta from hitting the board cuz there are too many to mention.

Lastly I will just say to each his own, I'm already tired of talking about it.

Sorry just thought about it Calming the Mind would stop it b/c it would stop you from paying the cost of the effect. Looks like there are 5 ways to stop it.