Feedback array and asteroids

By macar, in X-Wing Rules Questions

can you use feedback array while on an asteroid?

It isn't an attack or an action, so signs point to yes

Cool, what I thought

Feedback Array says "Instead of performing any attacks..." "Instead of" indicates replacement. If you're on an obstacle, you can't perform attacks, so I'm not sure you can use the Array "instead of" something you can't do.

It is, of course, another gloriously undefined term, but I think standard English points to you having to be able to attack. Probably going to have to wait for the FAQ on this one.

I don't know, not being able to attack doesn't seem to me like it would negate "instead of." You're still doing something instead of attacking, regardless of why you're not attacking. Besides, that interpretation would make this unusable against a ship you're touching -- you can't attack them, so you can't "instead of" attacking them -- and that seems to be one of the main reasons this card exists: to zap someone you came in contact with.

Feedback Array says "Instead of performing any attacks..." "Instead of" indicates replacement. If you're on an obstacle, you can't perform attacks, so I'm not sure you can use the Array "instead of" something you can't do.

It is, of course, another gloriously undefined term, but I think standard English points to you having to be able to attack. Probably going to have to wait for the FAQ on this one.

Would you consider that, if not on an asteroid, you need to have a valid target to be be able to use Feedback Array?

As in, if no one is in your arc (and therefore you couldn't perform an attack), can you use Feedback Array?

Edited by Klutz

Not having a valid target is not the same thing as not being able to attack. You actually have to start the attack process just to see if you have a target, since you can only check for targets during the Declare Target step. So in both cases, you can still attack, you just can't complete it.

The dictionary definition for instead (since we don't have a game definition) is "as a substitute or replacement; in the place or stead of someone or something:". You can't substitute for something you don't have in the first place.

Would you consider that, if not on an asteroid, you need to have a valid target to be be able to use Feedback Array?

As in, if no one is in your arc (and therefore you couldn't perform an attack), can you use Feedback Array?

you can't attack them, so you can't "instead of" attacking them

None of those things prevent you from performing an attack, they're only restrictions on what is a valid target.

So there's no reason why you couldn't use Feedback Array on a ship you couldn't otherwise attack, even if you have to have the ability to attack to use it.

Logically Not being able to target that ship != not being able to attack at all.

Besides, that interpretation would make this unusable against a ship you're touching -- you can't attack them, so you can't "instead of" attacking them -- and that seems to be one of the main reasons this card exists: to zap someone you came in contact with.

Feedback Array doesn't require that you be able to legally attack the target you want to damage, it just says instead of making any attacks.

Not having a valid target is not the same thing as not being able to attack. You actually have to start the attack process just to see if you have a target, since you can only check for targets during the Declare Target step. So in both cases, you can still attack, you just can't complete it.

This is the way I feel it is supposed to work as well (that you can use Feedback Array even if you don't have any valid targets).

But, I'm having trouble making that play nicely with the Blinded Pilot crit works ("The next time you attack, do not roll any attack dice").

If I'm not mistaken, to clear the crit, you need to actually have a valid target. Simply being able to perform an attack does not allow you to flip the card down.

So, the Combat Phase, step by step...

  1. Your ship's turn in the Combat Phase
  2. Perform an attack
    1. Declare target
    2. Roll Attack dice
    3. ...
  3. After performing an attack trigger
  4. ...

So, to use Feedback Array ("...instead of performing any attacks..."), you need to be allowed make it to step 2 (Perform an attack), without needing to be able to make it past step 2.1 (i.e.: you need to be allowed to perform an attack, but don't have to be able to).

But, to clear the Blinded Pilot crit ("The next time you attack..."), you need to be allowed make it to step 2 (Perform an attack), and also need to make it to step 2.2 (Roll attack dice) (i.e.: you need to be allowed to perform an attack, and have to be able to).

I'm having trouble justifying the difference between these two cases, since "performing any attacks" and "the next time you attack" seem like very similar triggers to me...

In my mind it seems like the FAQ ruling regarding Blinded Pilot ("A ship with Blinded Pilot assigned to it must perform an attack in order to flip this card facedown.") seems to show that "perform an attack" implies having a valid target.

(I'm in no way trying to advocate that Feedback Array or Blinded Pilot should work any differently than they do - just trying to wrap my head around the logic, if there is any in this case.)

Edited by Klutz

You could have a valid target while parked on an asteroid. You just can't shoot at it.

I try to avoid reading too much implication from Core Set wording. The text of Blinded Pilot actually made no sense in the original set, because "attack" was completely undefined. We got a definition for attack in the FAQ, but that definition doesn't really work well with Blinded Pilot. Honestly, the text for Blinded Pilot doesn't fir the pattern of most other abilities in the game. My honest guess is that if it were rewritten today, it would key on the Roll Attack Dice step itself.

So I do think you raise good points about the issues with Blinded Pilot, but I think those very issues make it unsuitable to use as precedent here.

You could have a valid target while parked on an asteroid. You just can't shoot at it.

I don't actually think you can. If you can't attack, you can't process the Declare Target step, which includes not only the actual declaration, but the checks for range and arc to see if it's a valid target. Without those checks, no ship can be a valid target.

I try to avoid reading too much implication from Core Set wording. The text of Blinded Pilot actually made no sense in the original set, because "attack" was completely undefined. We got a definition for attack in the FAQ, but that definition doesn't really work well with Blinded Pilot. Honestly, the text for Blinded Pilot doesn't fir the pattern of most other abilities in the game. My honest guess is that if it were rewritten today, it would key on the Roll Attack Dice step itself.

So I do think you raise good points about the issues with Blinded Pilot, but I think those very issues make it unsuitable to use as precedent here.

Good enough for me!

But I get the feeling maybe they should've put an errata for Blinded Pilot in the FAQ, as opposed to a clarification from which we can't draw precedent for other similar wordings.

But I get the feeling maybe they should've put an errata for Blinded Pilot in the FAQ, as opposed to a clarification from which we can't draw precedent for other similar wordings.

The list of things I feel that they should have errata'ed rather than "clarifying" is legion :D

There is an unfortunate amount of "it works this way, because we say so, just trust us." in X-Wing.