I emailed this question today.

In regards to a X-Wing rules question. Can I use a Rebel Y-Wing dial on a Scum and Villainy squad. The only mention of something close to this is that the players cards must match his/her faction. This might not be a concern for casual games but this could cause problems in a store championship. Thank you.

This is the response I got

Thank you for contacting Fantasy Flight Games. We have no announcements at this time regarding this question- please keep your eyes on the website for the most up-to-date information.

Intresting response. Wonder if they have something in the works.

This is one of those "big stink" issues that probably needs to wait for the FAQ to finally come out and address this.

I wonder how many of those who are 100% behind the idea that you need to have dials that match the faction would be disappointed if that need not be the case and why. To me the reasons to allow ships to use dials regardless of the graphics are far easier to justify.

I wonder how many of those who are 100% behind the idea that you need to have dials that match the faction would be disappointed if that need not be the case and why.

I don't think there's many that are that way. Most of us are simply saying "here's what the rules say." With some "here's some reasons why the rules are that way" thrown in. Few people are actively campaigning for Faction matters with dials.

Likewise most of us wouldn't raise a stink if someone was playing with the wrong faction dials for casual games.

@tk426 who sent you that email, was it Frank or Alex, or just some CSR at FFG? Because FFG does have a policy about not addressing rules questions on unreleased products. So that may be a boilerplate message.

I don't care how FFG decides to deal with the issue. If I can use whatever dials I want, then hey I might save some money. If I can't then I'm fine with that too because I am not ignorant of the economics at work.

Same reason I have never had an issue with the way they package upgrade cards or they they won't sell them separately. I understand the reasoning for the distribution model.

The only thing I'm against is the posters that expect companies to not try and make money off thier games. I want FFG to make money off X-wing, it means they keep making X-wing.

People want to spend less, I get that. I don't think some people understand or even think about the reasoning things are priced or packaged in a certain way.

Right now, as the dials are identical between factions, forcing us to use one faction's dial over another is causing great consternation.

However, it leaves design space open, later, for the ability to have different dials for the same model of ships between factions.

Scum ships already have different upgrade bars, so that and different Action bars aren't necessarily insane.

I won't go crying in my Cheerio's if they change it, but I actually prefer that it require the matching component. I don't like the idea that if I'm flying Rebel, and you're flying Scum, I'll have 5 red dials, and you'll have 4 green and 2 red. The potential for confusion and accidentally picking up the wrong dial is definitely there, and I'd prefer to avoid that. If you're in a mirror match you have to keep them apart, but everything being the same is more likely to keep the need to distinguish in the front of your brain.

The odd thing to me is that every time this comes up it focuses entirely on dials. Why stop at dials? With the exception of the astromech type, the stats for a Syndicate Thug and a Gold Squadron Pilot are identical. The base plate is identical except for the arc color. Why should I have to buy Most Wanted at all? Why not just run my Gold Squadron as a Thug?

Maybe they could release something to put on the dials that has the icon for the faction. That way you could swap out when needed.

That's not even remotely true. What the head designer says about any given rules question is always relevant, until FFG changes their mind on it. How long ago the email came out however is not relevant.

<shrug> A question was asked, and you've got the answer. The response is unanimous. We've got a very clear email from FFG telling you what the answer is from an official source. At this point there's nothing to do but, as Scottie says, send another query to FFG to ask if they've changed their minds. But the rules, the logic of what they put in the box, and an email direct from Frank all says that faction-specific components must match. You're not alone in disliking it, but you're way past the point of actually trying to find a correct answer, and well into making things up to force it to work the way you want.

I didn't ask a question, I'm one of those answering. So the answer is NOT unanimous. And no-one has been able to point to the part of the rules that says: The faction of your dials needs to match your faction.

A new player who buys two Firesprays and a single Most Wanted set has all the cards, baseplates and ships to field two scum Firesprays. If he brings that to a tournament, there is NOTHING in the rules that would allow a TO to deny him entry.

The odd thing to me is that every time this comes up it focuses entirely on dials. Why stop at dials? With the exception of the astromech type, the stats for a Syndicate Thug and a Gold Squadron Pilot are identical. The base plate is identical except for the arc color. Why should I have to buy Most Wanted at all? Why not just run my Gold Squadron as a Thug?

Because a Gold Squadron can take an Astromech, and a Thug can take a Salvaged Astromech. The two pilots differ, even if the numerical stats are the same. The baseplates are for identification purposes, so they need to match the pilot card.

Right now, as the dials are identical between factions, forcing us to use one faction's dial over another is causing great consternation.

However, it leaves design space open, later, for the ability to have different dials for the same model of ships between factions.

Scum ships already have different upgrade bars, so that and different Action bars aren't necessarily insane.

If the ship changes so much that the dials aren't the same between factions then the models for those ships should also be 'different' and thus not interchangeable. I take issue when people say the scum ships are "different ships" because if that were true then you shouldn't be able to use different models for them either.

To put the "different ship but same model" to the test you only need to look at the YT-1300. The stats for the base, ORS, model are significantly different from those of any of the unique versions yet all of them use the same dial. Unless a model is distinct enough to NOT be used with anything else then the dial and the model should go together. There is plenty of room in the Action bar to make differences.

Email from Frank Brooks stated there will be a update to the event rules later this week. Got a reply in under 5 minutes actually.

That's not even remotely true. What the head designer says about any given rules question is always relevant, until FFG changes their mind on it. How long ago the email came out however is not relevant.

It's irrelevant, because the email predates even the Wave 5 ships, long before Scum was anywhere close to finished (remember the leaked dials? The changed before the final release). Since then, the FAQ and tournament rules have been updated, and these things have not been added. A new player who reads the rulebook, the FAQ and the tournament rules can't find ANYTHING that tells him dials need to match.

<shrug> A question was asked, and you've got the answer. The response is unanimous. We've got a very clear email from FFG telling you what the answer is from an official source. At this point there's nothing to do but, as Scottie says, send another query to FFG to ask if they've changed their minds. But the rules, the logic of what they put in the box, and an email direct from Frank all says that faction-specific components must match. You're not alone in disliking it, but you're way past the point of actually trying to find a correct answer, and well into making things up to force it to work the way you want.

I didn't ask a question, I'm one of those answering. So the answer is NOT unanimous. And no-one has been able to point to the part of the rules that says: The faction of your dials needs to match your faction.A new player who buys two Firesprays and a single Most Wanted set has all the cards, baseplates and ships to field two scum Firesprays. If he brings that to a tournament, there is NOTHING in the rules that would allow a TO to deny him entry.

The odd thing to me is that every time this comes up it focuses entirely on dials. Why stop at dials? With the exception of the astromech type, the stats for a Syndicate Thug and a Gold Squadron Pilot are identical. The base plate is identical except for the arc color. Why should I have to buy Most Wanted at all? Why not just run my Gold Squadron as a Thug?

Because a Gold Squadron can take an Astromech, and a Thug can take a Salvaged Astromech. The two pilots differ, even if the numerical stats are the same. The baseplates are for identification purposes, so they need to match the pilot card.

Go to the world's and use rebel only dials with your scum ships.

See how far you get before you get dq.

Then you'll have your answer.

The majority here have already pointed out the answer.

You just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

Even if I had a email this very moment you'd likely find something to say otherwise.

So why include a firespray dial at all?

Answer that question

Why not just the cards and plate?

By your theory that's all you need. So why include a scum dial. Why wouldn't they just allow you to use the imperial one?

That there is the answer to your question.

Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out.

As for the time of email, what does that matter.

If frank or Alex stated a year ago that you will need scum dials, then you need scum dials.

These guys are the designers of this game. So what they say goes. The timelines makes no difference.

If you want to be cheap or save money fine, but don't go Givin false answers to players.

The majority to here have spoken. And the majority here are well experience players. They know what they are talking about.

If your going to argue with them, your not going to win, or make yourself look good. Actually it doesn't make you look good at all to keep arguing when you've been told numerous times.

You asked

Where is this email?

You were given your link and proven wrong.

So your best argument is the email is too old?

Really do you not listen to what your saying?

So again

Answer this question

If you don't need a scum dial to fly a firespray. Why did they include one?

I'm sure your made up answer will be entertaining

Edit

Just want to add

If your playing in a friendly game, or local tournament with friendly people you may not need the correct dials

If you plan on attending premium lvl events then expect to bring all the proper components including dials per faction

I know if I travel to the regionals and played two Firesprays and I have the correct dials and your across from me with rebel ywing dials but playing scum

Sorry but I'm going to call a tournament organizer over.

If I buy the correct expansion so I can legally field all correct component, I expect my opponents as well.

Especially in premium lvl event such as regional or national

The high lvl events are for top competitive players. These players do have fun, but also are serious

Tell ya what

Go to the world's and use rebel only dials with your scum ships.

See how far you get before you get dq.

I have THREE things in the actual, published rules that say using the `wrong' dials is fine:

First: FAQ, page 9:

If a player assigns the wrong ship dial to his ship (for example, assigning

a B-wing dial to an X-wing), when he reveals the dial he must inform

his opponent of the error. If the revealed maneuver is a legal maneuver

for that ship (for example, the revealed B-wing dial shows a green [ 1]

maneuver, a maneuver that also appears on the X-wing ship dial), it is

executed as normal. If the revealed maneuver is not a legal maneuver

for that ship (For example the B-wing dial shows a red [ 1] maneuver,a

maneuver that does not appear on the X-wing ship dial), the player’s

opponent chooses which legal maneuver from that ship’s actual dial that

ship will perform.

Second: Tournament rules, page 1:

Players may mark their tokens and their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the

function of the component is not compromised. However, players should be

careful not to mark the backs of their maneuver dials in an asymmetrical way,

or in any way that may indicate to their opponents what maneuvers they have

selected!

Third: Tournament rules, page 1:

Ship, base, and card proxies are not allowed.

So there you have it: Three sections of the rules that say this is fine. Rules that were updated less than a week ago. Now, do you have ANYTHING that is not an old email (which, in legal terms, is called `hearsay')?

The majority here have already pointed out the answer.

Even if I had a email this very moment you'd likely find something to say otherwise.

So why include a firespray dial at all?

Answer that question

As for the time of email, what does that matter.

If frank or Alex stated a year ago that you will need scum dials, then you need scum dials.

These guys are the designers of this game. So what they say goes. The timelines makes no difference.

I know if I travel to the regionals and played two Firesprays and I have the correct dials and your across from me with rebel ywing dials but playing scum

Sorry but I'm going to call a tournament organizer over.

And I repeat my question: Based on what part of the official rules are you going to object to my stuff? Remember: Email does not equal Official

This is the tactic that lead to Martin Luther getting excommunicated, even though no-one actually defeated him in a debate.

The official rules in question were simply "The Bible", and the Email was "Letters of the Saints".

Actually, I'd say that email the bible.

FFG has frequently updated the rules and FAQ, ever since the beginning of the game. Yet somehow they never added anything about movement dials needing to be the correct colour. There are several sections that mark it their colour unimportant, but no, the holy email is more important!

Actually, I'd say that email the bible. it's old, unsubstantiated, and despite the fact that there are newer, clearer texts blatantly contradicting it, people are sticking to it like it's holy scripture, `excommunicating' anyone denying it's validity.

FFG has frequently updated the rules and FAQ, ever since the beginning of the game. Yet somehow they never added anything about movement dials needing to be the correct colour. There are several sections that mark it their colour unimportant, but no, the holy email is more important!

This is mendacious, at best.

We haven't seen an FAQ update addressing Scum yet. Any issue of proper components would be a core rules question, not a tournament question, and is far more likely to be addressed there. Even if it should show up in the tournament rules, it wouldn't be the first time FFG went "Oops, missed that". There are at least two actively-running rules questions which were answered in previous versions of the FAQ, but then lost in the newer version.

Did they change their mind since Frank's response? Maybe. But in the absence of an actual FAQ release which addresses Scum, it's the best we've got. The baseline rules are nowhere near as supportive of interchangeable dials as you want everyone to believe, and your little crusade is coming dangerously close to crossing from rampant rules lawyering to simple lying.

We've gotten responses from multiple people now that they're going to have another update later this week. Smart money would be to simmer down and wait to see what happens.

Tell ya whatGo to the world's and use rebel only dials with your scum ships.See how far you get before you get dq.

Again, based on what part of the rules would I be disqualified? I've gone over the rules, the FAQ and the tournament rules plenty of times because I actually EXPECT to find this there. But it's not there. However, you're saying I will be disqualified based on an email a member of the staff allegedly send to somebody on a message board 6 months ago. Don't you hear how ridiculous that sounds?I have THREE things in the actual, published rules that say using the `wrong' dials is fine:First: FAQ, page 9:

If a player assigns the wrong ship dial to his ship (for example, assigninga B-wing dial to an X-wing), when he reveals the dial he must informhis opponent of the error. If the revealed maneuver is a legal maneuverfor that ship (for example, the revealed B-wing dial shows a green [ 1]maneuver, a maneuver that also appears on the X-wing ship dial), it isexecuted as normal. If the revealed maneuver is not a legal maneuverfor that ship (For example the B-wing dial shows a red [ 1] maneuver,amaneuver that does not appear on the X-wing ship dial), the player’sopponent chooses which legal maneuver from that ship’s actual dial thatship will perform.

So even if, as you claim, a Rebel dial is the wrong dial for a Scum Headhunter, any movement I select with it is completely legal.Second: Tournament rules, page 1:

Players may mark their tokens and their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as thefunction of the component is not compromised. However, players should becareful not to mark the backs of their maneuver dials in an asymmetrical way,or in any way that may indicate to their opponents what maneuvers they haveselected!

So I can paint the front and back of my all maneuver dials black, label them clearly for their ships, and they are still tournament legal. There will be no way to distinquish between a Scum dial, an Empire dial or a Rebel dial, but per the rules I can use them on a tournament, just like I can use acrylic movement templates.Third: Tournament rules, page 1:

Ship, base, and card proxies are not allowed.

Ship, base and card proxies. So movement dial proxies ARE allowed.So there you have it: Three sections of the rules that say this is fine. Rules that were updated less than a week ago. Now, do you have ANYTHING that is not an old email (which, in legal terms, is called `hearsay')?

The majority here have already pointed out the answer.

Ah, the good old Argumentum ad populum! Most popular of the logical fallacies!

Even if I had a email this very moment you'd likely find something to say otherwise.

Yes, because an email is not an official ruling. For it to be official, every player needs to have access. A personal email isn't publicly accessible.

So why include a firespray dial at all?Answer that question

Why do people use plastic range rulers? Why do people paint their ships? Because it looks better. By your logic, using anything but the tokens and templates included with the game would be illegal. If you could use anything else, why would they include it it in the box?

As for the time of email, what does that matter.If frank or Alex stated a year ago that you will need scum dials, then you need scum dials.These guys are the designers of this game. So what they say goes. The timelines makes no difference.

Because rules change. Back in august, Scum was still in the early stages. Wave 5 wasn't even released. Since then, they may have changed their minds. The fact that they never added it to any of the official rule documents means they probably did. What they say does, indeed, go. But the only official source of `what they say', is the rule documents. And the moment they add it to the official PDFs on the site, it's true. But a personal email from one developer to one player is not an official ruling, and as such, can't be a ground for disqualification and/or exclusion. Simply because of the fact that not every player has access to that email. The only official rules are those they put in the official documents on this site. Anything else is nice if you want to clear up a rules dispute among your friends, but is NOT tournament-relevant.

I know if I travel to the regionals and played two Firesprays and I have the correct dials and your across from me with rebel ywing dials but playing scumSorry but I'm going to call a tournament organizer over.

And I repeat my question: Based on what part of the official rules are you going to object to my stuff? Remember: Email does not equal Official

Something that apparently isn't very common.

Nice to know you have some sort of telepathy.

Since you can say frank or whoever may have changed their mind.

I'd think that if what they said 1-10 months ago would still hold true. If not they would obviously address it seeing as they told their consumer otherwise.

These guys are not 14 year old girls who change their mind weekly.

At the time of the email wave 6 was likely done.

Just as how we basically gotten confirmation wave 7 is complete and wave 8 is just about complete.

You do realize that they are a company, and are not making this game just a company that makes a game out of the goodness of their heart.

They are out to make money

Organize play helps them make money. If they didn't care then why must you have three copies of advanced sensors if you wanted to run three bwings with them?

Why? wouldnt one be enough?

You have one Already. Shouldn't that be enough. You can see the card, read and Understand it

The answer is because at the time you had to buy three shuttles if you wanted to use it.

Hell, let's go one farther and say why can't I just print off the cards needed.

I have the ships

Why bother buy a shuttle when all I have to do is print off an exact copy?

This is partly one reason why ffg will not allow cross faction dials to be used. It makes them money.

Show me a company that is out for only the goodness of their heart?

That don't have a marketing plan behind anything that they do

You have two Firesprays, you'll need two most wanted

Btw you didn't even answered my question.

Instead you rambled on because you cannot answer it. You answer is it looks better?

That's a pretty piss poor answer

Why not bother including any?

Your answer actually makes 0 sense. Just as your desperate argument.

Why did they include a extra scum dial for the ywing?

Why not include more dials for rebels?

Because THEY WANT YOU TO BUY MORE SHIPS

Your basically grasping at straws.

At a desperate attempt to try and make a argument out of nothing.

Don't worry your update faq will be out and I'd like to see what bs you'll come up with then

Most of your arguments don't even back up what your trying to say.

Your rulings on using the wrong dials is being taken completely out of context. Again a desperate attempt of grasping at something that isn't there.

The ruling is there because players have set incorrect dials to ships in play.

Meaning (because obviously you have a hard time understanding)

You have a xwing and bwing in play.

You set the bwing dial for your xwing

During the activation phase realize you set the wrong dial.

So long as the xwing can actually perform that manuever then it's fine. But if it's a manuever that isn't on a xwing dial, your opponent now gets to decide it's fate.

Nowhere does it make mention of using another faction dial.

Your actually making up rules that are not there.

That's not even close to being interpreted as the way you think.

I'm done feeding this troll

My advice to any new players is don't listen to this guy.

The majority here have spoken

I'd say unless told otherwise expect to have the proper dials.

And yes it will come out in a faq /updated rulings because there is more than 1 who will try to get away with this

We've gotten responses from multiple people now that they're going to have another update later this week. Smart money would be to simmer down and wait to see what happens.

Finally, someone who's reasonable.

I'm fully expecting FFG to rule that it's not allowed. But I'd be very disappointed, since you'd end up with a lot of models you can never use. Example:

I buy 2 headhunters and Most Wanted. I now have all the ships, cards and bases I need to field a 50 point swarm for both the rebels or Scum (2x Tala, 2x Bandit or 2x Binayre, 2x Black Sun). If they add this rule to the official rules, you'd have to buy twice as many sets, leaving you with 4 ship models you can never ever use, since you only have 4 matching dials. Those four extra models would just sit in the closet gathering dust, you couldn't use them if you wanted to.

This is very different from the current model, where even if you have to buy a Falcon to get access to an Engine Upgrade (which you can't photocopy, since it clearly states in the rules that card proxies are not allowed), that still leaves you with a Falcon you can actually use.

I expect FFG to rule that you have to have matching dials (that's why I scoured the rules documents, I expected them to have already done so), and as soon as they do, well, you'll have to. But as I've pointed out repeatedly, until they do, you don't have to.

<snip>

Those four extra models would just sit in the closet gathering dust, you couldn't use them if you wanted to.

Now you are just being silly. Ofcource you can use all the models. Not in the same match. But you could, as the most obvious example ever, use the four rebel painted Z-95 in a rebel list and the 4 scum painted Z-95 in a scum list.

If they add this rule to the official rules, you'd have to buy twice as many sets, leaving you with 4 ship models you can never ever use, since you only have 4 matching dials.

Faulty logic is faulty.

You have enough ships to fly 2 Rebel and 2 S&V ships. So you do not in fact have any ships you can never ever use. You have 4 ships you can use 2 of at a time, for official tournaments. You can still use all 4 for friendly and/or casual games.

But as I've pointed out repeatedly, until they do, you don't have to.

And as I've pointed out repeatedly, you can't actually use S&V yet, so you are correct. But being correct in this means nothing, because they are not tournament legal products yet.

You do realize that they'll probably be tournament legal by the end of the day, right? They're already available from the webstore (and mostly sold out). The official release announcement should be up soon.

The official release announcement should be up soon.

They're released now in fact.

So yes now they're legal and until they update the FAQ either today or tomorrow I gather, you could use S&V ships without the correct dials.

But seeing how they will update the FAQ/Tournament rules with needing the correct dials then I guess enjoy your 24 hours of dial freedom?

I guess enjoy your 24 hours of dial freedom?

24 hours of anarchy!

24 hours of anarchy!

Thing is they may not even get a new PDF out before Monday. Apparently Frank said they plan on having one out this week yet, but who knows. I'm assuming that's why they updated the Tournament document, because it said you could use a rebel or imperial list. With no mention of S&V some were making the argument that RAW you couldn't use them in a tournament. I didn't really buy that, but strictly RAW there was room for the argument. So my guess is, that they wanted to put that issue to bed ASAP in case they didn't get a FAQ and/or updated Tournament doc out before this weekend. Since there are store championships going on.

So maybe this weekend you'll be able to use the wrong faction dial, maybe not.

But Itsacon kept pointing out how the rules didn't say you had to use the proper dials, all the while ignoring the fact that S&V wasn't actually legal yet. So it was a pointless point to make.

"The rules don't say I have to do this, for something I can't even use yet."

Alex Davy sent a response to the Tournament Organizers Facebook page today. He clearly states that dials must be if the correct faction and that the Organized Play docs will be updated so. To reflect this.

"From Alex Davy:

I’m afraid they do have to be faction specific. OP will be posting another update shortly to clear up the confusion.

Cheers,

Alex Davy

Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]"

This is now settled. No cross-faction dial use in official events.

Jim