So yeah Chester's, Makai and Mentoring are banned now HAPPEH

First off my thoughts on the bannings since I never actually gave them:

Olcadan' s mentoring- Good F***** riddance, you were pretty much never needed and made the game stale. Tacked on to argaubly the best stats in the game, you're stupidly OP ability and the fact that everyone needed 4 of you and youre stuppid scancity. Let no abomination like this ever be made again. POTM comes close but thankfully it isn't Olcadan's tier. To think I could've had 3 more players had you been banned sooner. GTFO

Lord of the makai- Whilst I do mourn it's passing as it was my 2nd fav card it's understandable and was indeed OP. It's ban was needed and i'm glad it's gone.

Chester's backing- At first I thought this was the wrong move since it could keep other OP foundations ( let's not name names here) in line, after play testing taht theorem further I storngly thought that banning it was wrong, Only time will tell but **** did thi card HAVE to be so hard to get Jeebus man.

Confirmed Future bannings

Juni's Spiral arrow- Thank the heavens. Now Order is actually going to have to think about it's kill condition and lockdowns will be that much harder to pull. Good to see a manager who listens to us, the players.

Predictions on future bannings

Feline spike- Without it OTK would be that much harder.

Something Happening to Hanzokick- So that loops are near enough impossible, I imagine either Hanzo will recieve errata or Fei long's kick will.

Chun-li- you know it. Don't deny.

i honestly think Ira spinta is fine if those bans happened.

So what do you think will come to light in the new meta I personally think Good and death are gonna whoop ass.

Cheers

Hanzo

I really hope something impressive happens today... besides Juni's getting canned.

Happy Banada Day, everyone!

Homme Chapeau said:

Happeh BANANNA RAID! Haha.

@ Just doin' work: I hope you're not implying that my post is unimpressive, eh?

Hmm, just glossed over some decks and reaised Dead for 100 years is Ballin' now. Haha

Cheers

Hanzo

Bloodrunstrue said:

For those of us who live in Canada, this happens to be the National Holiday where we celebrate our independance. Funny enough, it's known as:

"Canada Day"

The NHL also kindly gives us the first day of Free Agency starting 24 minutes ago (or so). So there is much fun and frivolity to go along with all of that excitement. Add in a few bannings...

Amusingly enough... Hatman's a Canadian.

Antigoth said:

Oh, fantastic Happy Canada day guys, i'm sorry I didn't realise this and on that note then go Canada for taking US nats! Haha

What do you guys think will pose a problem now then in this supposedly `new` meta? What are your predictions for bannings?

My predictions are merely CHun-li and Feline spike

Let's be honest about the Hanzo loop...it isn't the attack that's brizzoke, it's the character ability!

A friend of mine asked Hata about this a loooong while back: "which is the offending perp here, the attack or the character?" Hata's response was "Hanzo".

Fei Long's Fwd Kick truly ONLY sees competitive play in a Hanzo deck. I did witness a Hanzo deck that did NOT run FFwdK, and it was quite awesome w/o it, lemme tell ya. The ability to clear your attacks from your cardpool for almost no cost or condition = ridonkulous!

RockStar said:

That may be but let's face it without Kick hanzo is just a good character. With the way block 3 is starting to look(only 1 set at a time meaning a lot less character's than previous blocks) I would much rather keep a good character around. If the Ban/errata Kick then HanzoKick dies but we are left with a playable Hanzo. If hanzo gets it then we are left with a banned character and an attack that will never see play. I think the choice is obvious.

Haha I'm sure people don't want to here this but other than the obivious stuff, I'm gonna say Bitter Rivals will either get banned or errated. Just a guess though.

Antigoth said:

Pun has been explained, Hatman AWAY~!

Canadians have independence? THEY WON A WAR?! o_O...(they must have been fighting penguins or inuits).

First off...

HELL YEAH! FFG LISTENS TO MEH AND KEEPS BANNING STUFF! EAT MY KHRUM!

*All Caps aside*

I'm excited to hear about these other bans. Ira-Spinta, Feline Spike, Chun-Li, and Akuma can all go.

I've said this over and over again: Hanzo simply needs a cost to his E, and one that actually IS a cost (not just something like E Discard the top card of your deck).

MarcoPulleaux said:

I agree with you about Hanzo. I think maybe the cost of E Commit 1 foundation... for example would be appropriate. That would be better, imo, than simply banning either the character or the Kick.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Nah... we were fighting a bunch of yanks and burning down their White House. It was fun.

The brits thought we were so cool because of that they said "here, you know what to do, go be your own country."

Bloodrunstrue seems to love these topics. I do recall it was him with his June STOG predictions that received a lot of attention as well.

That said, predictions are just that, predictions...

I remember the Hanzo kick debate on the old forums after Gencon last year, when players were experiementing with an impartial block. A consensus was never really reached, Hanzo or the kick? It is almost chicken or the egg?

Unfortunately I am in the boat of Hanzo being the enabler, free enhances are never a good thing on a character card. Ban the kick, and leave Hanzo, and you are asking him to find another attack that he can abuse... To support my argument, I did it before too, you only need to look to Vega from Deadly Ground who has an equivalent ability but with the cost of comitting x foundations, x is the speed of the attack. Believe it or not, you can make it Vega-kick with Black Magic and LotM (not any more of course), both of which have free enhances that lower the speed on the attack, eliminating or reducing the foundation commit cost with Vega.

Anything FREE is bad, it essentially is asking for an intelligent player to open it up to a OTK, simply becuase it can be used an infinite number of times a turn without any setback. The attack itself is not FREE becuase it needs to be played to use the enhance, this necessitates a cost to get the attack into hand and a check made to pass it. The enhance on Hanzo is FREE becuase it is there from the get go, and does not need to be looped back into play to use a second time in the turn...

Anyways, my prediction on this, becuase FFG smartly likes Ban over Errata in most cases (if not just to impact the intended ruling/mechanic) - Hanzo, banned.

Arrow is getting banned...

I can't comment on anything else getting banned. Chun-li should probably get some attention, becuase as much as '3 players getting diversified' isn't a huge deal, the fact that 3 of the same character finishes in (pre-diversity) top 8 says something to me, and at the prior national event as well '2 players diversified, both Chun-li' as well as 2 with it sandbagging (those 2 in the finals)... There is a point where something becomes too dominant, and I think Chun-li is there.

If Spike goes, then Rivals can go too, but I don't think Rivals can go alone. To me, these are a packaged pair. Granted the biggest threat Feline poses is it's reversal (says, don't attack unless you can kill me) which is what Rivals tones down, i.e. on the attack you can strip it.

I don't think the meta is as stale as everyone puts it. There are some dominant cards, that are easy to identify and easily played, however the game is still fun, and there is still room for innovation. A few more bannings will just make a good thing better.

An example of this is Omar, who tops again with a deck that others wouldn't dare put their hands on, very commendable. Another example would be the ALL Alex (Talbain or Herr) deck that runs with Mirage and some way to draw that was arrived at by more than one players in different parts of the world indpendant of one another. These things came to light during the reign of the commonly accepted power cards, and are fine examples of viable alternatives that are not as obvious as... momentum-spike, foundations-arrow/fury, hanzo-kick... and to me, these things doing well (albeit not strong enough to top) is a sign of fresh maneavors attempting to find a spot in a growing stale environment of 'best' choices.

- dut

Edit, sorry skipped as typing, but Antigoth's all your base deck is another example of a viable win condition that isn't by any means obvious or stale when discovered. Much props for that, and again others thought about it in isolation, which proves the minds of UFSers are not becoming stale, but are moving forward as a collective, the speed bumps on the way of progress are very strong alternatives that desire attention (banning or errata).

2nd Edit, further proof that there is still innovation, Mignon + Turnaboot?!? Ruling or not, people just aren't expecting this in a deck that has access to the best attacks in the game to begin with. The development of the Arrow lock itself was innovative enough, and it landing on Gill as it's spokesperson speaks volume to it reaching an ultimate efficiency. Anyways, just saying, a specific meta becoming stale does not mean the entire meta is stale, it just means different things work in different places, and efficient things to work in 'the most' situations. Get rid of the overly efficient and things will be fine ^^

dutpotd said:

They weren't sandbagging, though. Way to detract from the quality of those two decks. Having a character as a potential sideboard option vs. designing the deck to use said character but using a different one to dodge diversity are two entirely different things, and both decks did the former, not the latter.

If Chun-Li has to go so every Air/Water/Void deck that has a Chun-Li in the sideboard isn't derided for being a "sandbag" deck by shortsighted people, I'm all for it.

dutpotd - i agree with almost everything you say, except for the part about Feline Spike's BIGGEST THREAT is its Reversal keyword. I really have to disagree there, man. The biggest threat on that card is really it's Enhance that clears the cardpool and then prevents its multiples from being discarded.

That, to me anyway, is the biggest reason why Feline Spike is so ridiculous. Especially in a Meta where there are plenty of Multiple hate cards.

Tagrineth said:

I was there... And lost to the Li in a round robin match after beating the sandbag (hehe, Mignon's face = sandbag, sorry Kiit, needed to be said)... I also witnessed the change to Chun-li by both bags in the final, and multiple times in top 8... Olexa did not sandbag in robin, nor did he need to, he is a great player and the deck was magnificent. Nor did Kirk need to bag to win games, but it definately helped a great deal.

So sorry for being shortsighted (it was, after all just across the table from me). The problem isn't that you need to design a deck to use Chun-li, quite the opposite, Chun-li makes any deck better by simply playing whatever deck you have twice over (on your and your opponent's turn)... Taking out a new low and tossing in Chun-li, W Magic, and Hyoko isn't exactly saying much...

My intent was by no means to detract from the two decks quality, nor the quality of the players, two of the best for certain. The point was obvious, namely, Chun-li gives the extra edge to any deck becuase her ability is generic and strong. All decks play cards, all decks playing cards on their opponents turn is better .

I am 99.9% certain neither players or decks were detracted from by my comments, and if they were, my sincere apologies, that was not the intent in any way shape or form. My additional apologies to Tag whom I must have offended to be called shortsighted in return by, also not my intent, your input is always valued.

- dut

RockStar said:

The stun is also powerful. But, in relation to BR, the reversal is key.

Yes, Ichi/Rock's card/and more all are burdened by the clearing ability. But the reversal is what changes the way you play (i.e. don't attack).

- dut

RockStar said:

I don't like commit ONE foundation because, much like Defender loops, the Hanzo loop IS slowed down immensely, but it can still exist.

I think a better cost is to discard momentum, and perhaps an additional cost. With that, and Makai banned, the only symbol that can amass generous momentum is Air, and even then, I think by the time a HanzoKick player loaded their deck up with Nine Lives, White Magic, Natural Leader, and Aim High to generate momentum, they'd have switched to a better deck, or a better Hanzo.

Momentum is always a great cost because momentum isn't a "natural" resource like foundations, cards in hand, cards in deck, etc are. Momentum must be generated, and thankfully, the resources to do so continue to drift from direct momentum generation to actually attacking (Atoning for the Past = perfect example).

Also, foolish me

Ban Bitter Rivals. That card's arm has an infinite reach and drinks well from its bottomless cup.

MarcoPulleaux said:

The fear i have in errata'ing any character is to go the opposite way and beat him or her up so badly with the Nerf Bat that they become UNplayable a la Matt Kohls character card.

dutpotd said:

I have to disagree with you again (sorry). There are many ways around Feline Spike being played as a Reversal: Bitter Rivals (yes, an equally degenerate card), Saikyo-ryu, Inhuman Perception, End It All, Lesser of Many Evils, to name a few.

No, what really makes this card scary is knowing that once it's played you WILL have to face down M:2 for potentially 24 damage. Period. That's a hard dance to keep dancing, y'know. It's easier to control whether the card gets played or not, than to deal with cards that cannot be removed from the cardpool.

RockStar said:

That's fine, I don't disagree wtih you, the card pool clear negation is strong as well. I guess it just depends on what you run more often. For me, having to get out response negation for fear of not being to play an attack, lest I get reversaled for a lot of damage, requires more resources than finding an answer to 1/2 more attacks. Stopping momentum gen, holding ground, fight or flight, high blocks are all more readily available than the response negation you named, which... doesn't actually get rid of the card (only BR does).

So, it's is just a situational thing. I don't disagree at all that the clearing enhance is like the icing on the cake for the best attack out there... I mean, it is what makes Feline unique, for I do not know any other card that protects itself from clearance quite like it.

To me, Ichi is really the only multiple hate card (in the form of clearing) that people often run. Make a Difference is not on power symbols (I play them, sure, but most top 8ers don't), the Rock attack clearer is rarely used, and so is the Kabuki canceller... I guess what I am saying is the reversal is more prominent, and has a greater effect in more games, granted 'clearance' defense is few and far between, and only rarely does the Spike enhance help a great deal in relation to the times it is used as a kill on a reversal.

The stun is also killer, especially early game, when you have few foundations. Which Chun-li can do reliably becuase of hte 6s available and the extra build available from her ability.

3 killer enhances, all with varying impact in different situations.

hmmm....

- dut

There a lot more bans and even some errata's coming than most people think. We're finally gonna be pulling our selves out of the dave freeman grasp into the promised land people.

joe10lo said:

No kidding.

Every time that hammer is swung, a creepy half-pedophile smile lines across my face.

Seriously though, thanks much to the intelligent people responsible for the bannings. It's too early to say how they've impacted our game, but I feel it'll be for the better.

No Tekken at Worlds, though, means we've got a month to playtest.

Anybody having any regionals? >

MarcoPulleaux said:

Yea Calgary and Dut will make you waffles to top it off (he just kicked me last time I stayed over so your getting a better deal)