I do have to wonder if FFG is conscious of how the upgrades are distributed among the expansions and deliberately chose that distribution for balance purposes. Yes, it's a sound business decision to only put two of an upgrade in an expansion that you might want to use on four ships, but maybe they don't want people to be able to throw the same upgrade on eight different ships.
Do we really need to have the cards now?
The point I was making is that complaining about proxying cards seems even more stubborn when product availability is an issue, as it is right now.
You couldn't get A-Wings or Tie Interceptors shortly after Wave 2 came out. At one point Y-Wings were going for $50+ on ebay. You can't get falcons or firesprays right now... Availability is an issue and always has been an issue, so trying to claim this is a new or different case simply doesn't match up with history.
But how many people here are really being stubborn about proxies in casual games?
Look at the post I was replying to originally. I never claimed that availability was a new issue and if it always has been an issue, it doesn't change my point. I already addressed that in my last comment and I'm not sure why you're still going on about it. It seems like your nitpicking one aspect of my comment without looking at the bigger picture of what I'm trying to say.
I never claimed that availability was a new issue and if it always has been an issue, it doesn't change my point.
That's fine, but that's now how I read it. You made it sound like that proxies should be more accepted now, that there's issues with supply, as if it were a new issue.
But the rule is the rule regardless of supply issues. They can't change the rule back and forth, so it's in effect when there's enough supply to meet demand. So how available any given ship or upgrade is, just doesn't matter when you are talking about tournament rules. If you're playing a casual game then do whatever you wish.
I have never felt that FFG is nickel and diming this community. They are a business and their goal is profit. Most of the cards can be found in multiple expansions, and now they are in the habit of giving out multiples of the cards they feel will be popular in a single expansion.
Do what you will in casual play, but tournament is a different story. Prizes and promotions are created by FFG for these events. This takes money. We the players support FFG and these tournaments though our purchases. You are never REQUIRED to buy anything new to join. I know a guy that still flies all Wave 1 ships and cards. You're free to do the same. But FFG has the right to earn a profit on their product.
I think it's interesting that after 4 pages, only one person has expressed a dislike for playing against someone using proxies, yet there have been a number of people blustering about "I've purchased enough to earn the right to proxy" which almost no-one is contesting for casual games.
Of course, no amount of voluntary participation in a commercial transaction (buying minis) grants any sort of privilege or authority in other situations (changing the rules of tournament play), but I don't think that anyone is seriously claiming that it does. It does feel like there's a lot of defensiveness about not playing casual games to tournament standards, which I feel is misplaced (but sadly common from non-tournament players, which baffles me).
Edited by WickedGreyWhile I understanding the conflicting sides of "FFG needs to turn a profit" and "splitting cards across different ships is a tad shady," there really needs to be no justification for proxy in casual games apart from your opponent's consent
At they very very least, it should common sense that players would like to try out upgrades and builds before devoting hard-earned money to the purchase of an expansion pack.
Given how few games most people get in a weekly period, it should also not be unreasonable to expect these trial periods to go on for a very long time 
I may be blessed to have a group with a few fanatical but friendly collectors who are willing to trust you with their cards for the length of a tournament, but they have been willing to enable my Stress Wing fascination for a few months now. I only just put in the order for my own Transport along with my S&V pre-orders, and they're still willing to lend me Engines because the Falcon's re-stocked just long enough to for us to watch it jump into hyper-space about a days later. (Taking with it all the A-wings and Interceptors, interestingly enough 
)
An interesting side thought perhaps...
It's come up a couple times now about people getting into the game starting with Wave 6, and if getting in now is still viable.
The thing is, there is no game like X-Wing out there. You have Card games like MtG or LCG's, and you have Miniature Games like 40k or Warmahords, but X-Wing is sort of a blending of the two things which makes it at least to the best of my knowledge unique.
It's not really collectable in the way CCG's are. But it doesn't function quite like a normal TT miniature game does either, because upgrades are sold with the models, rather than in a book. For most miniature games you buy an Army Book and you have access to every upgrade that faction can use, there's no need to buy additional stuff just for the sake of the upgrades.
In card games they tend to deal with new people by limiting what sets are allowed, so people generally don't need to buy MtG cards from Fallen Empires or Arabian Nights any more. In miniature games new people just buy the most recent books and they're set.
X-Wing, and in the future Armada and Imperial Assault I think may run into issues where new players have issues because to get into the game in Wave 15, you're still having to pick up 2-3 ships from Wave 1 through 14 from all 3 factions so you have access to the upgrade cards you want.
Of course it may become a thing where new people just become a bit more choosie about what they do, and say that they won't bother with Ship X because the upgrades in it are nice but stuff from wave 12 does the same thing... Maybe FFG will start reprinting cards like they did with Fire Control System or Advanced Sensors, and the number of upgrades won't keep growing as quickly.
I'm not really trying to offer an answer just throwing out some thoughts.
I only started playing X-Wing seriously these past few months. With S&V I'm going to have to make some hard choices about which ships I want to buy, and which factions I want to collect. I could maybe swing having both Empire and Rebel, but three factions is just too pricey to buy a ship just for the upgrade cards. Much less a complete collection of all the ships.
There's a knife edge where FFG may begin pricing people out of the game. In a way, I'm kind of wary to be getting into X-Wing at this point.
Well, if by pricing you mean buying multiples of all releases all at once, then yes, but the same argument could be made for every release past the core box set. If you mean building up your collection as you go along, then I don't see the issue. After all, everyone who has picked up ships from each release has done the same thing. If the ship is worth it, then buy it. Otherwise, save your money.
The ease with which new players navigate 3 faction X-wing is going to come down a lot to forum guidance, I believe, or third party websites offering comprehensive articles
There are several games that enjoy wide-spread popularity despite far more complex rules and far more binding decisions (in terms of cost per faction) and while FFG might wobble on its position as #1, I don't think they'll be done in by upgrade cards except in the cases of retroactive fixes
As much as I love the A-wing and the Tie Advance fixes from a gameplay standpoint, the fact that you have to buy separate expansions is going to be a huge pain in the ass to explain to new players (doubly so because Darth "***** I can choke you with my thoughts" Vader is involved).
The covertte and transport were already sort of sour notes for me, but the YT-1300 is already quite a terrifying ship with or without C3PO and the transport is more of an enhancement to a now sort of maligned ship rather than a fix to easily the most maligned ship in the game. Plus, the transport is the cheapest priced epic (it comes with an X-wing at far cheaper than the Raider + Advance). A-wing fans probably won't be too upset with the Rebel aces pack (because it's awesome and all of it is 100% usable in normal play) but the Tie Advance is going to be rough unless you're an absolute nut for guaranteed dice results (like me 
).
So, I guess it's just the Raider. I, personally, love the Raider and am most excited for the Advance fixes it brings out of all announced releases, but I can easily see how it would piss off new players just looking to run an Advance.
Edited by ficklegreendiceAs much as I love the A-wing and the Tie Advance fixes from a gameplay standpoint, the fact that you have to buy separate expansions is going to be a huge pain in the ass to explain to new players...
Why? Because I don't see how it's worse for them, IMO it's better for them.
I owned 4 A-Wings, because I started with Wave 2, I also owned 4 B-Wings, and 4 X-Wings. When Rebel Aces came out, I had two choices, either buy two boxes to cover what I already owned, or limit myself to only having 2 of my 5 A-Wings usable.
For someone starting today they can buy 2 A-Wing packs and 2 Rebel Aces. Sure they'll be short 2 PtL, but you can fly a A-Wing without one, or get the Imp Aces pack and now you have plenty to go around.
The Tie Advanced is a whole other issue, but it's not worse for someone new, then it is for everyone else. You still are looking at buying the Raider if you want the Tie Advanced upgrades.
New people have the advantage of hindsight and can better choose what to get because they have more options. For example, anyone starting today is unlikely to buy 4 Shuttles for the sake of 4 AdvSens upgrades.
As much as I love the A-wing and the Tie Advance fixes from a gameplay standpoint, the fact that you have to buy separate expansions is going to be a huge pain in the ass to explain to new players...
Why? Because I don't see how it's worse for them, IMO it's better for them.
I owned 4 A-Wings, because I started with Wave 2, I also owned 4 B-Wings, and 4 X-Wings. When Rebel Aces came out, I had two choices, either buy two boxes to cover what I already owned, or limit myself to only having 2 of my 5 A-Wings usable.
For someone starting today they can buy 2 A-Wing packs and 2 Rebel Aces. Sure they'll be short 2 PtL, but you can fly a A-Wing without one, or get the Imp Aces pack and now you have plenty to go around.
The Tie Advanced is a whole other issue, but it's not worse for someone new, then it is for everyone else. You still are looking at buying the Raider if you want the Tie Advanced upgrades.
New people have the advantage of hindsight and can better choose what to get because they have more options. For example, anyone starting today is unlikely to buy 4 Shuttles for the sake of 4 AdvSens upgrades.
Yeah, I went back a bit on the rebel aces because both ships included are 100% legal for standard play and it includes enough upgrades for multiple ships to make it great value.
I'm still uncertain about the Raider. Veterans who have been saddened for so long by the Advance's awful stat distribution would be far more likely to shell out the not inconsiderable sum to slam that ship back on the table, but what of the new player going "****, that's Darth Vader it is!" only to discover it's really Jeff Vader and the real Darth Vader is locked behind an $100-$70 (online discount) paywall.
That's only in competitive settings, of course, but even casual tournaments don't seem to enjoy having card proxies because it mucks up the waters a bit.
It's an unappealing mix of a.) the Raider is required for a competitive advance and b.) Vader's brand name recognition and how it draws new players
Not everyone drawn to X-wing miniatures by the knowledge of Star Wars will know who the **** Wes Jensor or Tarn are, but we all know Vader and we're all saddened that he hits like a wet noddle without the Tie/x1 
In card games they tend to deal with new people by limiting what sets are allowed, so people generally don't need to buy MtG cards from Fallen Empires or Arabian Nights any more. In miniature games new people just buy the most recent books and they're set.
X-Wing, and in the future Armada and Imperial Assault I think may run into issues where new players have issues because to get into the game in Wave 15, you're still having to pick up 2-3 ships from Wave 1 through 14 from all 3 factions so you have access to the upgrade cards you want.
I think that this is mitigated by any one list only having so many upgrade slots available. A friend and I ran down the top 8 lists at worlds last year, and they all came in around $125 to $250 (mostly depending on C3P0), and now with Fab's MSRP-this-list work, it sounds like the Most Wanted lists previewed in the article a few days ago come in around the same amount (Most Wanted is a bit of an oddball, since it's clearly optimizing for the "you already have a ton of this stuff" customer).
Of course, there will always be the "C3P0 on an X1 with slicer tools and the IG-2000 title" lists, but I think that generally most lists won't cost more than $250, which is **** cheap in the MtG ($400ish for a top-tier list, buying only singles), WH40K (Lord Vader only knows), Warmachine (don't remind me), etc. class of games.
I'm still uncertain about the Raider.
But it's the same for everyone. If you're unwilling to pay for a Raider, solely for the sake of the Tie upgrades, then that's going to be true no matter how long you've been playing.
If someone wants Vader so badly then either they'll be willing to pay the price for him or they won't. But IMO Vader was never a big part of the fighter battles. He only flew a fighter in one movie after all. So I don't think you'll see many people not getting into the game just because Vader isn't all that good, and of all the Tie Advanced he's still at least semi-playable without the Raider stuff.
Most times when you see people talk about what to get, even before the Raider was announced, we still told them to pick up an Advanced for the sake of Vader.
Don't casual players already do this? Can you really stop someone from using proxies? They'll just find an opponent that's okay with it or that's doing it too.
Honestly, FFG does a great job of selling great upgrades that fit the ship you are buying. After buying your Core, if you want to run 3 X-wings you can do so with only the cost of those expansions. Popular builds tend to get covered in "Aces" packs and that is another cheaper way for players to get miniatures with different upgrade cards.
This game is balanced. Are some lists better than others? Sure. Can one create a competitive list with a small collection? ABSOLUTELY.
I still don't see this as an expensive game to jump into at a friendly or competitive level.
I do have to wonder if FFG is conscious of how the upgrades are distributed among the expansions and deliberately chose that distribution for balance purposes. Yes, it's a sound business decision to only put two of an upgrade in an expansion that you might want to use on four ships, but maybe they don't want people to be able to throw the same upgrade on eight different ships.
That tactic shuts out people who have limited funds from buying up ships just for the upgrade cards. It doesn't prevent it.
In card or miniature games, there always seems to be "that guy" (could be a perfectly decent guy, BTW) who can afford the most toys and if a specific unit or card or whatever is particularly good, it creates a perception of "pay to win" for some people.
I do have to wonder if FFG is conscious of how the upgrades are distributed among the expansions and deliberately chose that distribution for balance purposes. Yes, it's a sound business decision to only put two of an upgrade in an expansion that you might want to use on four ships, but maybe they don't want people to be able to throw the same upgrade on eight different ships.
That tactic shuts out people who have limited funds from buying up ships just for the upgrade cards. It doesn't prevent it.
In card or miniature games, there always seems to be "that guy" (could be a perfectly decent guy, BTW) who can afford the most toys and if a specific unit or card or whatever is particularly good, it creates a perception of "pay to win" for some people.
Yep, it doesn't actually stop anyone from doing, it just stops everyone from doing it, which is arguably worse. It creates a system of haves and have-nots, where the wealthy players gain access to strategies that more frugal players cannot access. Whether X-Wing is currently suffering from this is, as we can all see, still very debatable.
Luckily X-Wing is a game where upgrades have diminishing returns, and FFG has been pretty good about including staple upgrades as multiples in their more expensive expansions (Slave, Falcon, Aces) or making them unique. Currently there is only one "must-have" upgrade that is locked behind a significant pay wall, which is C-3PO for anyone that wants to run the Millennium Falcon competitively, although there are ways of hacking the effects of C-3PO without running the card. The raider will soon bring the same problem to anyone that wants to run the iconic TIE Advanced competitively.
I really don't see the "FFG is pricing players out of the game" argument, sorry. It's not like people need to buy every single thing that comes out in order to field a viable, rules-legal, list.
Part of the game should be making a list with what you've got, and learning how to "run what you brung," making a list work in the first place. Part of being an adult is weighing the costs of things you want, deciding if you can afford to buy them, and maybe even making do without every little trinket that catches your eye.
At the end of the day, this is a game of starfighters going pew pew pew at one another. None of us need any of it, much less all of it, and as a luxury item, FFG can charge whatever they want for it, and continue to use reasonable rules of "use the right stuff for the game" at their tournaments.
Casual game? Knock yourself out. Helping a new player try something neat? Proxy away. Wanting to experiment with a "leaked" card to make up your mind whether or not you want to buy it? Have a blast. But I'm sorry, I don't think FFG are tyrants and monsters (or picking on folks with limited budgets) for wanting players of a game to use the stuff they sell for that game, in their official competitive events.
Im strictly on about upgrade cards etc folks. Not pilot cards etc.
I am seeing comments like "I own 300 dvd's so I should be able to download them guilt free from Piratebay" that's a total different argument.
The main reason I ask is that there is parts in the Copyright Law that allowed you to make back up copies of things you owned only if they were specifically for your own personal use so to me that would mean I can make a copy of cards I own.
I know its technically not quite the same but I just think its stupid now that if players want multiple of a certain card they need to go buy the whole kit and caboodle.
I think FFG now need to look at allowing us to buy individual cards and I believe we should lobby them to do so.
I think your particular grievance stems from entering the game later and having a copy of rebel aces without owning a standard b-wing expansion. I'm not sure what FFG could/should do differently.
I've been looking into getting the B-Wing expansion, but it is very hard to get. The Aces pack seemed the next best thing, and I really like the pilots. But still, lots of cards are redundant even to players who have lots of As and Bs; Enhanced Scopes? And as I said; many players proxy the Chardaan Refit *even if they have the effing cards* because including it is so obvious. No missiles? -2 points. The multiple cards are only useful for tournaments, regardless of what one's collection looks like.
How do they create new expansions that appeal equally to new and existing players? I guess that is just another weakness to the card-based system but I still think it is better overall than a manual based game. A binder of all these shiny little star wars cards will attract more new players than a reference book.
The simple fact that play involves cards rather than army books doesn't bother me, but at one point I did notice that maybe army books have their advantages. I like the fact that cards make preparation easier.
Unrelated to that are my instinctive reactions, like that Chardaan Refit and similar fixes shouldn't be necessary in the first place. Maybe better playtesting was needed? I cannot know for sure. Often, the solutions to these kinds of problems are very unexpected.
if they were specifically for your own personal use so to me that would mean I can make a copy of cards I own.
And as it has been pointed out perhaps 45+ times in this thread, you can do that. The only time you'll run into issues is if you're at a sanctioned tournament.
I think FFG now need to look at allowing us to buy individual cards and I believe we should lobby them to do so.
FFG has very clearly stated that they're not going to do this. However, there are alternative sources where you can do this. I'm all for tilting at windmills, but knowing that they're not going to change their mind just seems futile.
Critias and Darthsidious well said...
I would have quoted...but they still refuse to make this site mobile friendly...
I don't see how people are still complaining availability is an issue.
Amazon has 16 B-Wings in stock, and Barnes and Noble has them too, and even has a feature where you can enter your zip code and they will tell you the nearest brick and mortar store that has them in stock. They both sell them for under the $15 MSRP (which is what I pay for them) so that will most likely offset the cost of shipping. And don't tell me you can't shop online because you don't have a credit card, you can buy prepaid credit or gift cards with cash at most supermarkets. Or maybe it's time to open a checking account and get a debit card.
Seriously, anyone who says "I can't find ship X" just isn't looking hard enough. If FFG flooded the market with expansions so that every LGS had a thousand of every ship just so you'd never have to look around to find them, they'd go bankrupt.
I don't see how people are still complaining availability is an issue.
Amazon has 16 B-Wings in stock, and Barnes and Noble has them too, and even has a feature where you can enter your zip code and they will tell you the nearest brick and mortar store that has them in stock. They both sell them for under the $15 MSRP (which is what I pay for them) so that will most likely offset the cost of shipping. And don't tell me you can't shop online because you don't have a credit card, you can buy prepaid credit or gift cards with cash at most supermarkets. Or maybe it's time to open a checking account and get a debit card.
Seriously, anyone who says "I can't find ship X" just isn't looking hard enough. If FFG flooded the market with expansions so that every LGS had a thousand of every ship just so you'd never have to look around to find them, they'd go bankrupt.
Let's do the Falcon next!