These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

Except for every time they sell a new edition, core rulebook, codex, or "update" in a Rogue Trader magazine, you mean? Or the times whole units (or even armies) have been made illegal from edition to edition, as force organization charts were revised?

There are pros and cons to this card based system. Cards look pretty and are probably more enticing to new players. It does make rebalancing the game less elegant though.

Yes, we really have to have the cards. We will always have to have the cards. And that is okay.

These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

Except for every time they sell a new edition, core rulebook, codex, or "update" in a Rogue Trader magazine, you mean? Or the times whole units (or even armies) have been made illegal from edition to edition, as force organization charts were revised?

I don't think this is about new editions.

You can't say that even GW doesn't charge people for errata and then completely ignore the fact that WH40K 6th edition came out a couple months before X-Wing's original release, and 7th edition came out before X-Wing's Wave 4...

If you're argument is that "people who bought WH40K 6th edition can still play it even if 7th ed. is out" and that they don't have to buy 7th edition if they don't want to... Well then the same argument goes the other way as well: people who bought the A-Wing in Wave 2 don't have to buy Rebel Aces if they don't want to and can keep playing with their 17pt Prototypes.

And, technically, FFG doesn't charge for errata. Errata are all in the free, PDF version of the FAQ.

Cards look pretty and are probably more enticing to new players.

I like them better then printed lists and books. Nice having everything right there in front of you with all the rules and such. Makes it easy to keep track of what the other guy has as well.

It does make rebalancing the game less elegant though.

Very true, plus with FFG's unwillingness to errata things in general it's very hard to fix things that slipped through. I get why they don't want to do it, just errata cost or the number of attack dice on the HWK. It would break the game into the haves and have nots. Those who have the fixed values and those who don't.

Imagine showing up at the LGS for the first time and finding out that half your stuff no longer costs the same or works the same.

But it is a lot easier to just print a new codex with tweaked values to fix things that don't work quite right.

The fact that it is a card based system probably contributed a lot to the popularity of the game.

For people who are not miniature gamers, being able to buy a small core set and assimilate the rules in little bites, card by card, is a heck of a lot nicer than sitting down in front of a 100+ page rule book.

Well i own at least one of each large to huge ship and at least two or three of each small ship (eight of some!) so i reckon i've invested enough to be proxying guilt free

Well I own atleast 300 DVD's, so I rekon I've invested enough to be downloading from PirateBay guilt free. .

Hmmmm, nope, still doesn't sit well with me.

This is an example of false equivalency, for multiple reasons.

Anyway, since FFG has made it clear that they're not selling card-only expansions, I hope that they start including more copies of non-unique upgrade cards with ships. There's some of us that will buy an extra copy of a ship just to get the cards, but can't because FFG has production issues. This might be a special case, but the owner of our FLGS is hesitant to get into the game because he's convinced that it would take him a long time just to get the ships and cards he wants to run. Who can blame him? FFG has done a poor job at meeting consumer demand for some ships, which is obviously bad for both parties. Considering this, it's actually a bad time to deride the act of proxying cards.

The fact that it is a card based system probably contributed a lot to the popularity of the game.

For people who are not miniature gamers, being able to buy a small core set and assimilate the rules in little bites, card by card, is a heck of a lot nicer than sitting down in front of a 100+ page rule book.

The card based system? Not for me.

I got into the game because

A) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

B) I like war games

C) I like miniature war games

D) I don't like painting miniatures

E) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

And it was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

Considering this, it's actually a bad time to deride the act of proxying cards.

FFG has always had issues with meeting demand. The fact the the game is still growing like mad means that as much as they improve their production capabilities, that increase is already met by the increase in demand.

So to say that now is a bad time simply doesn't work because it's always been this way.

But the argument pro and con proxy has been waged many times in many different places and the argument for the most part simply never changes.

I mean, come one - who is really going to object when you have only three Chardaan Refits for your A-Wings when you need six?

FFG.

That's the rules. Complain on the forums all you like, that particular rule exists to make people buy products and thus it isn't going to change.

that particular rule exists to make people buy products and thus it isn't going to change.

I think it exists for more than just that single reason, but yes that is no doubt a big part of it. No company is ever going to tell someone it's ok to not buy their products. It just isn't done, and so when they can make up a rule that says you need to buy more stuff to play at a certain level, then they will.

But this is true of every game out there really. You can't use proxies for MtG or a LCG, you can't use proxies at 40k or FoW tournaments. They all have the same basic rule, that you have to own their products to take part in officially sanctioned events.

I think there's more to it than just money, it looks better, which makes it more appealing to spectators which can lead to new customers. It also makes for a better experience for the players, both in terms of aesthetics and playability. I find it a lot easier to play when the other guy has all the cards laid out and easy to see. You may be able to play using nothing but printed lists, but no one can reasonably say it's easier that way.

What people do in casual games at their home or even LGS if they allow it, that's up to them. But there's no real value and debating it here, because the answer is pretty clear.

In official events proxies are not allowed, but what you do at home is up to you.

The fact that it is a card based system probably contributed a lot to the popularity of the game.

For people who are not miniature gamers, being able to buy a small core set and assimilate the rules in little bites, card by card, is a heck of a lot nicer than sitting down in front of a 100+ page rule book.

The card based system? Not for me.

I got into the game because

A) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

B) I like war games

C) I like miniature war games

D) I don't like painting miniatures

E) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

And it was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

Yes, those also all help.

But when Target and Barnes and Noble start selling a game, it tells you a little about who's buying it: they're not just "hardcore" gamers.

So yes, the people who have been playing miniature games for many years might've preferred a rule book based system, but not the average casual gamer who walked into Target and picked up the Star Wars game for their nephew.

The percentage of X-Wing players who play competitively is probably a lot less than 25%.

And the card based system is a lot nicer for the 75+% percent of people who play casually.

Edit: Yes, I pulled that 25% stat straight out of my rear end. And yes, I'm aware that some of you are probably casual gamers and would still have preferred a massive rule book instead of cards. Please don't just consider your own interests and try to think of all the other people who play this game at home with their kids, family, nephews, etc...

I have 66 ships so far, I think I have earned the right to proxy if I darn well please. I bought my wife a very nice color laser for Christmas and it makes VERY good copies of the cards. Unless you are really looking close its hard to tell them from real ones, it's my crappy scissor skills that gives it away!

The fact that it is a card based system probably contributed a lot to the popularity of the game.

For people who are not miniature gamers, being able to buy a small core set and assimilate the rules in little bites, card by card, is a heck of a lot nicer than sitting down in front of a 100+ page rule book.

The card based system? Not for me.

I got into the game because

A) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

B) I like war games

C) I like miniature war games

D) I don't like painting miniatures

E) It was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

And it was pre-painted Star Wars Miniatures

Yes, those also all help.

But when Target and Barnes and Noble start selling a game, it tells you a little about who's buying it: they're not just "hardcore" gamers.

So yes, the people who have been playing miniature games for many years might've preferred a rule book based system, but not the casual gamer who walked into Target and picked up the Star Wars game for their nephew.

The percentage of X-Wing players who play competitively is probably a lot less than 25%.

And the card based system is a lot nicer for the 75+% percent of people who play casually.

This is a little misleading, just because other major companies have started to pick up on the product doesn't mean that a game won't have non-hardcore players. It's actually a great idea to help increase sales and bring people into your store. Gamestop started carrying board games for a bit to try it out and see how it worked. It's a convenience thing.

I have 66 ships so far, I think I have earned the right to proxy if I darn well please. I bought my wife a very nice color laser for Christmas and it makes VERY good copies of the cards. Unless you are really looking close its hard to tell them from real ones, it's my crappy scissor skills that gives it away!

What do you need to proxy if you have bought 66 ships? Why would this be an issue if it appears that you would continue to buy more?

In order to facilitate new players, we proxy the hell out of anything so that we don't scare people off with superfluous expansions

For tournies, we have 3-4 regulars with absolutely, ridiculously massive collections that are always willing to lend that Rebel Transport/Corvette upgrade you really want to use but would never buy

Your loss, i'll be playing games with autothruster interceptors without shelling out for three ships i dont need!

Not in a FFG tournament you won't.

Erm, like i intend to play in one anyway!

Well i own at least one of each large to huge ship and at least two or three of each small ship (eight of some!) so i reckon i've invested enough to be proxying guilt free

Well I own atleast 300 DVD's, so I rekon I've invested enough to be downloading from PirateBay guilt free. .

Hmmmm, nope, still doesn't sit well with me.

This is an example of false equivalency, for multiple reasons.

Anyway, since FFG has made it clear that they're not selling card-only expansions, I hope that they start including more copies of non-unique upgrade cards with ships. There's some of us that will buy an extra copy of a ship just to get the cards, but can't because FFG has production issues. This might be a special case, but the owner of our FLGS is hesitant to get into the game because he's convinced that it would take him a long time just to get the ships and cards he wants to run. Who can blame him? FFG has done a poor job at meeting consumer demand for some ships, which is obviously bad for both parties. Considering this, it's actually a bad time to deride the act of proxying cards.

Well to me, having bought two 'stealth device' and proxying the third for my interceptors is *not* the same as ripping off a DVD or downloading a show etc.

It *is* the same as making a back up of a cd on my mp3 player, so i can get more use of something i've paid for.

Yes, those also all help.

But when Target and Barnes and Noble start selling a game, it tells you a little about who's buying it: they're not just "hardcore" gamers.

So yes, the people who have been playing miniature games for many years might've preferred a rule book based system, but not the casual gamer who walked into Target and picked up the Star Wars game for their nephew.

The percentage of X-Wing players who play competitively is probably a lot less than 25%.

And the card based system is a lot nicer for the 75+% percent of people who play casually.

This is a little misleading, just because other major companies have started to pick up on the product doesn't mean that a game won't have non-hardcore players. It's actually a great idea to help increase sales and bring people into your store. Gamestop started carrying board games for a bit to try it out and see how it worked. It's a convenience thing.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying...

"just because other major companies have started to pick up on the product doesn't mean that a game won't have non-hardcore players"

My point was precisely the opposite: the fact that Target, etc. picked up the game shows that it HAS non-hardcore players.

And that the card-based system encourages this, and that it's a GOOD thing for the game, as it gets more players into the game, increasing sales. And some of those "casual" players are bound to convert into more "gamer" gamers.

You start off by saying that my post was a little misleading but then agree with everything I say! I'm confused.

I think I just totally read your post wrong! Yay for the AM

And i'm not saying you should be allowed to proxy in tournaments that are by definition designed to increase sales as they defeat the object.

I'm just arguing that in friendly/casual/club games its a bit unneccesary to insist that someone owns say four copies of PTL to be able to use it on four ships.

Surely its a game about skill and judgement with an element of chance.. not a game of wallet size?

I mean im playing devils advocate here btw, look at my sig file.

I'm getting one of each S&V ships for completeness but I dont know if i'm going to need two IG whatsits but i coudl do with three copies of autothrusters (it comes with two copies right?)

I mean i gave away three PTLs the other day as i have so many to a mate who wanted them but doesnt want A wings ot imperial aces.

I'm just arguing that in friendly/casual/club games its a bit unneccesary to insist that someone owns say four copies of PTL to be able to use it on four ships.

I don't think anyone would really argue that with you. Most of us are of the opinion that you do what you want in casual games but should expect to step it up when you start playing tournaments.

Some of us don't like to proxy, myself being one of them but that's just how I build my lists. But I don't have a fit if someone else is, in a casual game.

I have 66 ships so far, I think I have earned the right to proxy if I darn well please. I bought my wife a very nice color laser for Christmas and it makes VERY good copies of the cards. Unless you are really looking close its hard to tell them from real ones, it's my crappy scissor skills that gives it away!

What do you need to proxy if you have bought 66 ships? Why would this be an issue if it appears that you would continue to buy more?

My name is Knucklesamwich and I am a FFGaholic.

And i'm not saying you should be allowed to proxy in tournaments that are by definition designed to increase sales as they defeat the object.

I'm just arguing that in friendly/casual/club games its a bit unneccesary to insist that someone owns say four copies of PTL to be able to use it on four ships.

Surely its a game about skill and judgement with an element of chance.. not a game of wallet size?

I mean im playing devils advocate here btw, look at my sig file.

I'm getting one of each S&V ships for completeness but I dont know if i'm going to need two IG whatsits but i coudl do with three copies of autothrusters (it comes with two copies right?)

I mean i gave away three PTLs the other day as i have so many to a mate who wanted them but doesnt want A wings ot imperial aces.

Auto-thrusters are in the Starviper, and it comes with 2 copies, yes.

I don't think anyone would really argue that with you. Most of us are of the opinion that you do what you want in casual games but should expect to step it up when you start playing tournaments.

Some of us don't like to proxy, myself being one of them but that's just how I build my lists. But I don't have a fit if someone else is, in a casual game.

I'm the same, when I was starting out and had a considerably smaller collection I'd try and build lists with what I had rather than proxy in a bunch of stuff. Makes getting new stuff that much more fun!

Instead of "I should pick up another ____ so I don't have to proxy ____ anymore", it's "Ooooh! If I pick up ____ I can use ____ in a ____ list!"