You can't say that even GW doesn't charge people for errata and then completely ignore the fact that WH40K 6th edition came out a couple months before X-Wing's original release, and 7th edition came out before X-Wing's Wave 4...

And, technically, FFG doesn't charge for errata. Errata are all in the free, PDF version of the FAQ.

I think you're looking for the word "formally" rather than "technically" here. As I said, ceteris paribus there is no reason to omit Chardaan Refit; nobody is going to field the basic A-Wings without upgrades anymore, so it's as good as an erratum ("if your A-Wing has no missiles, subtract 2 from the points cost"). "Technically" it's an erratum, if you wish.

Looking at how it works out in practice, a single card would have been okay as far as I am concerned. Now, I suppose that three copies of the card is useful to tournament players. I'd prefer it if the game was aimed at those who play just for fun and less for organized formal competition.

Perhaps it is to make up for the expenses inolved in making that ubercompetitive Fat Han that is so popular at tournaments.

Considering this, it's actually a bad time to deride the act of proxying cards.

FFG has always had issues with meeting demand. The fact the the game is still growing like mad means that as much as they improve their production capabilities, that increase is already met by the increase in demand.

So to say that now is a bad time simply doesn't work because it's always been this way.

But the argument pro and con proxy has been waged many times in many different places and the argument for the most part simply never changes.

I mean no disrespect, but I don't see the purpose of your reply. It's always been an issue? Ok, then I'll redefine time as meaning since the game's release (although I had no issues getting a hold of ships when I started playing in Winter 2013, so I guess that's my frame of reference). The point I was making is that complaining about proxying cards seems even more stubborn when product availability is an issue, as it is right now.

"Technically" it's an erratum, if you wish.

No technically it's an upgrade not an errata. It may be a no brainer autoinclude upgrade, but it is still an upgrade regardless.

Darth Vader with the X1 Title is an interesting and possible exception to that, since his card does say Tie Advanced x1 on it already. You could argue that the upgrade card isn't needed for him.

But regardless, the refit is an upgrade, and as such should be treated as one.

There is a point of paying for what you play with in most miniature and card games. I mean people don't generally expect to walk into a MtG tournament with half their deck being color printouts. Or a 40k tournament with half their units being the wrong model. Likewise you shouldn't expect to play in a X-Wing tournament without having all the upgrades you plan on using. Again, what you do in casual play is up to you.

The point I was making is that complaining about proxying cards seems even more stubborn when product availability is an issue, as it is right now.

You couldn't get A-Wings or Tie Interceptors shortly after Wave 2 came out. At one point Y-Wings were going for $50+ on ebay. You can't get falcons or firesprays right now... Availability is an issue and always has been an issue, so trying to claim this is a new or different case simply doesn't match up with history.

But how many people here are really being stubborn about proxies in casual games?

I don't like the fact that certain cards are only in the larger ships (Epic) such as C-3PO. These upgrades are great for regular x-wing play and I wish they would have seperated this but by including these cards it makes people buy more product. I have no interest in Epic play and therefore wont' get those upgrades unless I trade for them. I traded for the Rebel Transport upgrades but those are all I have from the Epic play ships.

I for one do think there is a difference between tournaments and casual play.

Also I do not think there is anything wrong or illegal about making copies of something I already own. It is NOT the same thing as downloading a pirate movie or copying your friend's Blue Ray. But if you wanted to copy your Blue Ray, save the original somewhere and use the copy, if I'm not mistaken, that should be okay.

However, if I own a Slave-1 and want eight Stealth Device cards I will most likely proxy the other 7 rather than purchase 8 Slave-1s for a single card. Sure FFG would rather me by Eight Slave 1 miniatures but for me that simply isn't going to happen. I own the card and in a friendly game I'll use copies.

Some people are okay with that, some don't like it but will accept it and others for some reason seem to be offended.

I generally like the card based system, but there's a major weakness and it Really REALLY sets me off. Ffg knows the have distribution issues and they know there are some upgrade cards that have proven to be pretty critical to high level play. Nevermind the power level of the ship, that's a different discussion. I'm talking about veteran instincts draw their fire and engine upgrade. Last I checked falcons were going for $100 plus on eBay and firesprays in the $80 range. If I were debating starting the game right now, I probably wouldn't based off that. That FFG refused to put those cards in other ships in S&V and will probably continue to not reprint them is awful to us as players. I'm okay buying a ship for a card, ive bought two defenders for predator and im buying two star vipers for autorhrusters, i even bought an extra firespray for the bombs. I'm not okay with essentially bring unable to get a card, especially ones that are critical in competitive play.

I'd be trilled if FFG just said here are the links to the cards. We're not going to release card only packs nor are we going to allow these in tournaments but if you need them print them here.

Okay I'm actually hoping the FFG is reading this.

P.S. I'd still buy at least one of each ship and most likely two of the smalls though I usually have more that that.

I generally like the card based system, but there's a major weakness and it Really REALLY sets me off. Ffg knows the have distribution issues and they know there are some upgrade cards that have proven to be pretty critical to high level play. Nevermind the power level of the ship, that's a different discussion. I'm talking about veteran instincts draw their fire and engine upgrade. Last I checked falcons were going for $100 plus on eBay and firesprays in the $80 range. If I were debating starting the game right now, I probably wouldn't based off that. That FFG refused to put those cards in other ships in S&V and will probably continue to not reprint them is awful to us as players. I'm okay buying a ship for a card, ive bought two defenders for predator and im buying two star vipers for autorhrusters, i even bought an extra firespray for the bombs. I'm not okay with essentially bring unable to get a card, especially ones that are critical in competitive play.

Indeed, I'm glad I got my firespray while I could because my online retailer re-stocked and then sold out of the firespray in the blink of an eye (the YT-1300 is still there, but I'll be damned before I buy a large turret )

EDIT: well ****, now they're sold out of quite a lot of ships, YT-1300 A-wings and Interceptors included

best to coordinate with your local group to see how many VIs you can mooch

You can't say that even GW doesn't charge people for errata and then completely ignore the fact that WH40K 6th edition came out a couple months before X-Wing's original release, and 7th edition came out before X-Wing's Wave 4...

Whatever. If you want to make the point that GW has treated its customers in a rotten manner, I won't argue. My point, as far as there is one, is that I have several reasons not to like the card system, because it leads to practical redundancies as in the case of Rebel Aces. If you want to debate about GW, perhaps we could start a new thread in the off-topic subforum.

That was not my point. My point was simply that 2 of your previous statements didn't sit too well together.

I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

I don't think this is about new editions.

And yes, I do agree that fixing balance issues is a little harder when dealing with a card based system. However, IMHO, the advantages of the card based system far outweigh it's disadvantages.

If I had to introduce my non-gamer friends to the game by showing them a huge rule book, I don't think many of them would be interested. A few ships with a few cards are a lot easier to swallow!

The fact that some cards are exclusive to the Rebel Transport, Tantive and Raider does annoy me, as I don't see myself playing epic very often. I'll probably be picking up the Raider because I think the model looks wicked, but it'll probably spend most of it's time on the shelf, looking pretty and accumulating dust...

I'd be trilled if FFG just said here are the links to the cards. We're not going to release card only packs nor are we going to allow these in tournaments but if you need them print them here.

They're not that hard to find. The X-Wing Wikia is probably one of the easier ways to get a hold of them:

http://xwing-miniatures.wikia.com/wiki/X-Wing_Miniatures_Wiki

I printed out a couple B&W proxies the last time I went out to my FLGS for some casual play. Cut them out, slip them into a sleeve with another upgrade and you're good to go!

using proxy's for new players or to playtest new fleets is fine...but you need to have the cards if we are in a more formal setting.

to reiterate what others have said...FFG is a business...they are a Business I support by buying their games...not ripping them off.

Regarding Card Availability and the Falcon: Veteran instincts (Fits anywhere, really) and Engine Upgrade (The Missile Boat and K-wing's SLAM systems are perfect for this) could use a reprint in a Wave 7 ship. I think FFG wants to keep at least one or two unique upgrades in each pack, though, so I'd expect DTF to stay unreprinted like much like daredevil, adrenaline rush, the R2 unit, and swarm tactics have.

oh...and we need more places to get proximity mines.

People will give up on perpetuating the aesthetic and profit based rules when the games gets too large. Otherwise, either FFG stops making new content or starts excluding people from starting the game.

Someone referred to X-Wing as a 'subscription' games, and that starts to feel more accurate with each release. Sure, anyone can play with one starter set and a large ship, but I don't think that it is realistic to expect them to want to.

I mean people don't generally expect to walk into a MtG tournament with half their deck being color printouts. Or a 40k tournament with half their units being the wrong model.

That is not true with regard to 40k. Conversions and proxies are a huge part of that game. People even build models from scratch.

There is a point of paying for what you play with in most miniature and card games. I mean people don't generally expect to walk into a MtG tournament with half their deck being color printouts.

At that point, choosing expansions and planning squads becomes an annoyance rather than a fun aspect of the game. So it is that aspect I take issue with.

Some people don't like how they preview essentially everything, but it does make it easier on your wallet. Lets you pick and choose which expansion you want to get for upgrades. Really you don't have to spend a whole lot on this game to build a competitive squad, you do got to spend quite a bit to build a lot of competitive squads. More variety, more money.

If the raider included only one copy of the title and ATC for the advanced, I would gladly grab a torch and pitchfork with the rest of the mob. But I do plan on buying one raider and will be set. I may not even decide I want 4 advanced and could trade away extra copies. Certainly a few individuals will be buying multiple raiders and the extra copies will be out there.

As it is, I don't have C-3PO... yet. I will almost certainly break down and buy a CR-90 someday and owning a "for reals" copy of C-3PO will be one of the factors influencing that decision. I don't begrudge FFG their right to make money in this way. (Now if they just want to errata that stupid protocol droid and say that guessing zero is a %$^@$ move and you can't do it anymore then I'm OK with that too.)

Also, proximity mines sound like a natural fit in the next wave if Alex's comments are anything to go by.

It's interesting situation as the game expands, but with the advent of Wave 6 and future waves, I probably will stop buying every ship. I already own a lot of ships that I don't use and I don't want to keep adding to it. I don't have a ton of interest in playing scum yet, but I'll pick up two starvipers (mostly for four autothrusters cards, otherwise I'd just get one) and the Most Wanted so I can field a basic squad.

So, I do hope upgrades come in a variety of ships more consistently going forward and not just a single ship.

It also looks like one of the upcoming kits has an alt-art interceptor PTL card as a participation prize. It's a bit late for that now, but it will be nice if they start to add in more difficult-to-get cards like 3P0 or Engine Upgrade as an alternative.

I've never used a proxy in any game

Its a choice I've made, Soontir didn't see PTL until Imperial Aces. I've never bought a ship just for a card. I like the challenge of "this is what I own, what combination can I make".

Not a fan of others using proxies either, if I'm honest. Someone mentioned earlier about the meta changing and everyone would just use the strongest lists out there, I've seen this and its bad for the game.

Its not until you've witnessed the true majesty of the Emperor's Space Wolves launch a drop-pod assault from 5 cans of Monster Energy that you can truly appreciate where proxies can lead.

Each to their own though

It's interesting situation as the game expands, but with the advent of Wave 6 and future waves, I probably will stop buying every ship. I already own a lot of ships that I don't use and I don't want to keep adding to it. I don't have a ton of interest in playing scum yet, but I'll pick up two starvipers (mostly for four autothrusters cards, otherwise I'd just get one) and the Most Wanted so I can field a basic squad.

So, I do hope upgrades come in a variety of ships more consistently going forward and not just a single ship.

the great thing about this game...ships you "don't use" have a good chance of being "must use" ships every few months. I mean look at the Y-wing love we are getting. This game is SOOO much more affordable and fun than the other flight path games. STAW is on wave 13 (!) and it came out a year AFTER X-wing!

There is a point of paying for what you play with in most miniature and card games. I mean people don't generally expect to walk into a MtG tournament with half their deck being color printouts.

Yes, I don't like it if the game nudges you towards such practices, it makes for annoying decisions. I and other MtG players did not accept it when one player used a sticky note with the words "icy manipulator" on one of his land cards. Sure we knew the card, but it's good practice to play with the actual cards. So I don't think I'm going to play with C-3PO like that, but then again, I don't have any of the cards that are really good on Keyan Farlander - should I proxy some of those? I don't know. The whole cards system just isn't very player friendly, especially because the best cards are not included with the pilots they work with - Keyan Farlander does not come with Push the Limit, Stay on Target or Advanced Sensors, to name a few. No, three Chardaan Refits, two Enhanced Scopes and two A-Wing Test Pilot cards, those were included. (And as everyone seems to acknowledge, some of those cards are habitually proxied in casual games...even by players who own the **** cards.)

At that point, choosing expansions and planning squads becomes an annoyance rather than a fun aspect of the game. So it is that aspect I take issue with.

I think your particular grievance stems from entering the game later and having a copy of rebel aces without owning a standard b-wing expansion. I'm not sure what FFG could/should do differently. How do they create new expansions that appeal equally to new and existing players? I guess that is just another weakness to the card-based system but I still think it is better overall than a manual based game. A binder of all these shiny little star wars cards will attract more new players than a reference book.

That is not true with regard to 40k.

Then things have changed. When I played 40k in 5th, armies were WYSIWYG, and if your SM Sgt had a powerfist the model had to have a powerfist as well. Also 50% of the model had to be original GW stuff, or forge world.

At that point, choosing expansions and planning squads becomes an annoyance rather than a fun aspect of the game. So it is that aspect I take issue with.

I just buy 2-3 of most everything and call it good. So I don't have any issues myself.

I only started playing X-Wing seriously these past few months. With S&V I'm going to have to make some hard choices about which ships I want to buy, and which factions I want to collect. I could maybe swing having both Empire and Rebel, but three factions is just too pricey to buy a ship just for the upgrade cards. Much less a complete collection of all the ships.

There's a knife edge where FFG may begin pricing people out of the game. In a way, I'm kind of wary to be getting into X-Wing at this point.

It's interesting situation as the game expands, but with the advent of Wave 6 and future waves, I probably will stop buying every ship. I already own a lot of ships that I don't use and I don't want to keep adding to it. I don't have a ton of interest in playing scum yet, but I'll pick up two starvipers (mostly for four autothrusters cards, otherwise I'd just get one) and the Most Wanted so I can field a basic squad.

So, I do hope upgrades come in a variety of ships more consistently going forward and not just a single ship.

the great thing about this game...ships you "don't use" have a good chance of being "must use" ships every few months. I mean look at the Y-wing love we are getting. This game is SOOO much more affordable and fun than the other flight path games. STAW is on wave 13 (!) and it came out a year AFTER X-wing!

I don't disagree that I love that aspect of it, but the more ships get released the less of my collection I use when I play, and usually additional ship "fix" packs come with more of the same ship. I have more X-wings and Interceptors than I can field in a list. I planned better for As and Bs but I own 4 Bs and probably won't ever fly them all). So I'm not talking just about ship types but also extras of a ship (It used to be my standard to buy two of each at ship to start). At the same time, I've used cards from those extra ship purchases.

As an example, I've never played a Z-95 that I can remember but I've used every card from that expansion. And it's not that that ship isn't good, it just doesn't fit my style of play.