I personally feel we are at a juncture now where we should not be expecting players to buy multiples of expansions just to get multiples of certain cards.

My feeling are as long as they have 1 original of the card then they should be allowed to use printed versions of the rest. (They must have at least one original of it though)

FFG have made it clear that they will never release a Card Only expansion or sell individual cards so I feel we should be pro-active in seeking "common sense" solutions.

I used to be a stickler for having the expansions to use the cards but now I am very sceptical about it.

As long as they have at least one original and have paid the points for multiples I would be ok with this even in tournaments.

What say Ye?

I don't play in tournaments but I still don't proxy cards. Not because of any moral reason, it would just bug the hell out of me to see printed versions alongside the real thing. To me it would feel like printing out the board and pieces for a paper-based version of chess or scrabble

Really not sure why FFG deem it financially impractical to release card-only expansions, there are many companies that made their fortune in this format. For every player that buys a ship exclusively for the card, I'm willing to bet there are many more that refuse to buy a ship they don't need just to grab the card(s) they do.

Proxying cards is fine with me. A lot of the time we run games off print outs from xwing builder to save the hassle of having a pile of cards in front of you and just having a 'record sheet'.

Proxying cards to me is not a problem, in the same way i dont mind if someone uses a scratchbuild or a conversion for a game of 40k, or even mind if someones 'imperial guard' are converted 28mm romans or whatever.

Playing a game thats fun is important, not how you keep track of hit points and ordnance or remember rules.

I proxy all sorts of cards mostly for play-testing and other things. But i don't play torney's and I have a pen and paper/wh40k gaming background so I'm rather used to making stuff up on the fly and just running with that. To be honest i kinda wish X-wing was more open to proxies. A lot of the time the guys i play with wanna use a spare x-wing as a z-95 or whatever and im fine about that but then we need extra dials and things we don't have on hand.

I personally feel we are at a juncture now where we should not be expecting players to buy multiples of expansions just to get multiples of certain cards.

My feeling are as long as they have 1 original of the card then they should be allowed to use printed versions of the rest. (They must have at least one original of it though)

FFG have made it clear that they will never release a Card Only expansion or sell individual cards so I feel we should be pro-active in seeking "common sense" solutions.

I used to be a stickler for having the expansions to use the cards but now I am very sceptical about it.

As long as they have at least one original and have paid the points for multiples I would be ok with this even in tournaments.

What say Ye?

First and foremost Fantasy Flight Games in a business. Fantasy Flight Games will always be a business. Yes, they go through great measure to ensure we are having fun along the way , but they are a business. They will "never" say, you don't have to buy a product of theirs to play it in a tournament. What you do in your friendly games is your business, selling ships and cards is FFG's business.

I play only casual games, but there's a reason I'm reluctant to use proxies. There's something of a slippery slope here; you can proxy a lot of things in the game, but at a certain point the whole experience is gone.

A second reason is that the tiny 'meta' of our gaming club would change rather radically if we all had access to every card in unlimited amounts. There would be little reason *not* to use the most powerful combinations, and I think some creativity would be lost.

My usual opponent has said he is okay with proxies, but I'm not sure if it's good form to put a sticky note saying "C-3PO" on my Han Solo pilot card. I'm not sure where to draw the line here. On the other hand, why include cards at all if you can just write the darn names on a piece of paper?

I like X-Wing's gameplay, but I don't like the "models with cards" business model they chose. When I bought the Rebel Aces, it contained a lot of redundant cards. What am I supposed to do with A-Wing Test Pilot and Chardaan Refit? Is there any reason not to use these cards on eligible ships? It feels like paying for other people's mistakes. Also, proxying these cards seems a given - why bother putting them on the table? Just subtract the two points for Chardaan Refit. The actual cards - you know, those things I paid for - are redundant, let alone three of them.

And why is there no cannon upgrade in the box? If FCS and Advanced Sensors are so good on a B-Wing, why were these cards not included in Rebel Aces? Either of these seems a much better option than Enhanced Scopes, which was included more than there were slots available!

Now, I understand that these cards matter to the tournament scene, but I feel that this is essentially still a game, meant for fun at home, not a pack of tournament equipment. From that perspective, the cards included in Rebel Aces were disappointing, and the whole system drives the casual player towards proxying cards and paying for redundant stuff.

In regard to rebel aces, most of the includes make sense for customers who already owned some A and B wing expansions.

Regarding needing physical cards, I expect and understand that OP and tourneys will always require physical cards. Money and such. The whole "slippery slope" argument drives me nuts but has some validity. For friendlies, I plan on printing most of my squads using yet another squad builders new fancy mode where all card text is included. Rather than a slew of slippery cards on the table, just have one sheet of paper. Just more convenient than digging all the cards out of the binder.

We mostly play casual and often don't use any cards except the damage cards. We use a squad builder and print the entire squad and use that.

I would not have a problem with that, but it seems unlikely.

I personally don't use proxies. But that's because I know me: I paid enough money for the stuff I already have. And I'm not sure if I have played with all the models at least once. If I started proxying stuff, I would say to myself: See, you need that expansion. Then I would buy it. And that would mean that I would spent much more money on X-Wing stuff, than I'd like to. So I'm happy with using only stuff I have.

Part of me gets that proxies aren't a big deal. But there's another part of me that feels like hey, I spent money on this game I enjoy. If you enjoy it too, you should have some skin in the game, rather than just printing whatever you don't have. I mean, how is that different from making copies of a DVD to give to friends? I already own the original; why should I pay money for extra copies?

I also think it helps encourage creative list building. I'm going to put a lot more thought into a list if I only have four of a certain upgrade than if I can just print off the extra ones I need.

I'm not going to deride anyone for using proxies -- except in tournaments, because a) it's the rules and b) if it's competitive, I need to see you've made the investment -- but me, I'll never do it.

Well i own at least one of each large to huge ship and at least two or three of each small ship (eight of some!) so i reckon i've invested enough to be proxying guilt free

In regard to rebel aces, most of the includes make sense for customers who already owned some A and B wing expansions.

I mean, come one - who is really going to object when you have only three Chardaan Refits for your A-Wings when you need six? And if you're going to assume the cost anyway, why include three rather than just one as an erratum? Also for those who already have a lot of A-Wings, the cards are redundant. These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

Proxying cards is fine with me. A lot of the time we run games off print outs from xwing builder to save the hassle of having a pile of cards in front of you and just having a 'record sheet'.

Proxying cards to me is not a problem, in the same way i dont mind if someone uses a scratchbuild or a conversion for a game of 40k, or even mind if someones 'imperial guard' are converted 28mm romans or whatever.

Playing a game thats fun is important, not how you keep track of hit points and ordnance or remember rules.

We play like this too. Just print the squad and have a go.

I do like to have some for real, but that's me :-)

In regard to rebel aces, most of the includes make sense for customers who already owned some A and B wing expansions.

Really? Chardaan Refit and A-Wing Test Pilot are such obvious choices that the actual card is redundant. If a ship can take these upgrades, you will, and I would not object if my opponent simply subtracts those two points from all A-Wings in his swarm, rather than just the three he has the physical cards for. In fact, he can safely leave the cards in the box for all I care. Those multiple cards are redundant for the casual player (and an expensive nuisance for the tournament player, I would guess!).

I mean, come one - who is really going to object when you have only three Chardaan Refits for your A-Wings when you need six? And if you're going to assume the cost anyway, why include three rather than just one as an erratum? Also for those who already have a lot of A-Wings, the cards are redundant. These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

i dont consider 'chaardan' an auto include as I sometimes run a wings with missiles. Its useful if you are using cards to be able to see which ones have which i suppose.

It does get silly with a wings though when you've got the pilot card next to test pilot, two epts a missile and potentially something like MF. You can end up with a lot of cards per ship all sliding around.

Well i own at least one of each large to huge ship and at least two or three of each small ship (eight of some!) so i reckon i've invested enough to be proxying guilt free

Well I own atleast 300 DVD's, so I rekon I've invested enough to be downloading from PirateBay guilt free. .

Hmmmm, nope, still doesn't sit well with me.

Your loss, i'll be playing games with autothruster interceptors without shelling out for three ships i dont need!

Well i own at least one of each large to huge ship and at least two or three of each small ship (eight of some!) so i reckon i've invested enough to be proxying guilt free

Well I own atleast 300 DVD's, so I rekon I've invested enough to be downloading from PirateBay guilt free. .

Hmmmm, nope, still doesn't sit well with me.

And you've *never* downloaded an MP3 or watched an illegal download yeah?

In regard to rebel aces, most of the includes make sense for customers who already owned some A and B wing expansions.

Regarding needing physical cards, I expect and understand that OP and tourneys will always require physical cards. Money and such. The whole "slippery slope" argument drives me nuts but has some validity. For friendlies, I plan on printing most of my squads using yet another squad builders new fancy mode where all card text is included. Rather than a slew of slippery cards on the table, just have one sheet of paper. Just more convenient than digging all the cards out of the binder.

You know, this isn't a half bad idea, for casual games strictly speaking. Even if you do own all the cards. Personally I cannot fly something that I don't own, so I'd never proxy stuff. Especially since if I fell in love with it, it would mean that I can't play this list in a tournament... but for ease of setup and stuff this could be a very nice idea.

Plus for casual games I always have my cards in a folder so I could always demonstrate that I do indeed have them all.

I think the cards are an important part of the game. For one it's an appearance thing, FFG makes this game interesting to look at from a distance. It was one of their goals. When you get up close you get to see everything you and your opponent are fielding.

As of right now there isn't a good way to have the cards organized, since if they are tilted in a card holder your opponent can't see them.

Eventually I think someone will create a unique way to keep everything close and organized that looks good and is useable, till then please have your cards!

Your loss, i'll be playing games with autothruster interceptors without shelling out for three ships i dont need!

Not in a FFG tournament you won't.

In regard to rebel aces, most of the includes make sense for customers who already owned some A and B wing expansions.

Really? Chardaan Refit and A-Wing Test Pilot are such obvious choices that the actual card is redundant. If a ship can take these upgrades, you will, and I would not object if my opponent simply subtracts those two points from all A-Wings in his swarm, rather than just the three he has the physical cards for. In fact, he can safely leave the cards in the box for all I care. Those multiple cards are redundant for the casual player (and an expensive nuisance for the tournament player, I would guess!).

I mean, come one - who is really going to object when you have only three Chardaan Refits for your A-Wings when you need six? And if you're going to assume the cost anyway, why include three rather than just one as an erratum? Also for those who already have a lot of A-Wings, the cards are redundant. These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

The problem is on FFG's end. Because they went with a card based rules system (as opposed to a book-based system like 40k or Warmachine), Anything that isn't a new action, token, or size of ship (I.e. Large or Huge ships), needs to be on an upgrade card, because that's the only place for the rules to go. It's the reason why the Aggressor comes with an IG-2000 title even though you have literally no reason not to run it without the title- Without the title, you'd have to turn the pilot cards into a huge wall of text. This is even more the case for generic pilots, who can't have special abilities, so there's no space at all on the card for rules.

However, FFG would have had to use a completely different release method if they'd gone with a book-based system, since you don't want to be eratta-ing all these new rules into the core rulebook every time they release a new ship. A wave-based book release wouldn't be any better, since people would resent having to pay, I don't know, $15-30 for a book just to be able to use Flechette Torpedoes on their X-wing- And FFG would also be moving fewer models that way, since they wouldn't have incentivized buying new models to improve your old ones (which in turn leads to you buying other models to buff your new models up). Which I think is ultimately why FFG doesn't want to do a card-only expansion- It'd reduce the incentive to buy new models, which would not only cost profit, but reduce the dynamic nature of the game for the individual player (Because instead of buying Imperial Aces for the cards, and then finding out you loved the interceptor, you'd just buy a card pack)

And you've *never* downloaded an MP3 or watched an illegal download yeah?

Let's not go down that route. Please?

i dont consider 'chaardan' an auto include as I sometimes run a wings with missiles. Its useful if you are using cards to be able to see which ones have which i suppose.

Rather it is this: when faced, ceteris paribus, with the choice "Chardaan Refit or not", one will always choose to include the card. Leaving it out does not grant you a missile, just the slot.

I own at least 3 of every small based ship, at least 2 of every large based ship, at least one of every epic ship, about 11 ties and about 6 xwings (5 core sets) I have plenty of cards. the only time i use any of them is in a tournament, and I really prefer casual to tournament play.

When I play, I generally provide all the ships, but I too use the printed sheets from voidstate, which gives you the option to print out the card text as well. Less clutter, a lot less setup time, you don't waste time searching through all those upgrade cards, no sheild tokens, just mark them off the sheet. Much easier and cleaner, and less confusing. "wait a minute, which interceptor has that TC? the card has slid between them and it's not clear who it's equipped on" or one swipe of a forearm leaning across the table and the whole fleet is in the floor, or one spilled drink and it's ruin!

I don't Fly what I don't have, but I am fine with people proxying. I don't want to win because I have invested more in the game. I think the best pilot should win, but If I have all the upgrades and someone else does not, they are clearly at a disadvantage from the outset.

Test Wing pilot is pretty pointless to have if you don't have room for a 2nd EPT. So no that's not really an autoinclude. Same goes for the refit, it's only useful if you're not going to use a missile.

Myself I'd have no issue if people didn't bother breaking out the cards for those things as long as I could tell what's going on. Test Pilot is easy, if they have 2 EPT's then they most likely are using testt pilot.

But that all stops as soon as you enter a tournament IMO. At that point you should have all the proper cards, models, components ect... I'm also of the opinion that you shouldn't enter a 40k or FoW tournament without a fully painted army as well.

These players are almost paying for other people's mistakes, too. I can't recall that even GW ever made gamers pay for errata.

Except for every time they sell a new edition, core rulebook, codex, or "update" in a Rogue Trader magazine, you mean? Or the times whole units (or even armies) have been made illegal from edition to edition, as force organization charts were revised?