And, by contrast, swarms are freaking difficult to play

It can also be difficult to buy that many copies of one ship, and you can't a swarm if you don't own one.

I'm surprised by how dead my local play group is.

Wave 4 had us more hyped than anything before by far. Then the phantom comes and suddenly ALL of our lists were no longer "take all comers".

We haven't played a single game locally since the phantom dropped.

L

I'm surprised by how dead my local play group is.

Wave 4 had us more hyped than anything before by far. Then the phantom comes and suddenly ALL of our lists were no longer "take all comers".

We haven't played a single game locally since the phantom dropped.

That's sad. I wanted to click "Like" because it's noteworthy, but...

Anyway, what I'm seeing is the whole rock-paper-scissors argument is only accounting for some of what's showing up. People are searching their binders and finding things that directly counter the 3 pillars. It's allowing for a wider variety of lists.

That's sad. I wanted to click "Like" because it's noteworthy, but...

Anyway, what I'm seeing is the whole rock-paper-scissors argument is only accounting for some of what's showing up. People are searching their binders and finding things that directly counter the 3 pillars. It's allowing for a wider variety of lists.

I felt the same way! I almost clicked "like", but then didn't b/c it was just sad.

I will agree that there are areas where people are bringing new and exciting lists. I'm very excited about that. My game store was one of them. I do see other events, though, and that is just not happening yet. It's all turrets all the time.

That's sad. I wanted to click "Like" because it's noteworthy, but...

Anyway, what I'm seeing is the whole rock-paper-scissors argument is only accounting for some of what's showing up. People are searching their binders and finding things that directly counter the 3 pillars. It's allowing for a wider variety of lists.

I felt the same way! I almost clicked "like", but then didn't b/c it was just sad.

I will agree that there are areas where people are bringing new and exciting lists. I'm very excited about that. My game store was one of them. I do see other events, though, and that is just not happening yet. It's all turrets all the time.

Last few SC's in my area have been won 3/5 times by some variation of phantom deci, 1 has been won with a fat corran and an a wing and something else, and another has been won by a 2400 and falcon list.

Maybe if you actually had to decide between cloaking and shooting we'd have list variation. The one time someone won a SC with 6 A Wings doesn't count.

No, there are SC's out there that have unusual lists. It's more than one or two. I've been reading the thread and there are many that just make me sigh and never want to go to a SC again. There are about 1/3 of events that seem to have a number of non-meta lists that are winning. Maybe not the top slot, but in the Top 4.

I went to my SC and expected 75%+ of meta and there were only 2 out of 12 that even had big, turreted ships in their list. Only one list had a Phantom, and it was 3 generics. I know my store is not normal, but there is a shift in the meta in a significant number of events.

L

I'm surprised by how dead my local play group is.

Wave 4 had us more hyped than anything before by far. Then the phantom comes and suddenly ALL of our lists were no longer "take all comers".

We haven't played a single game locally since the phantom dropped.

That's sad. I wanted to click "Like" because it's noteworthy, but...

Anyway, what I'm seeing is the whole rock-paper-scissors argument is only accounting for some of what's showing up. People are searching their binders and finding things that directly counter the 3 pillars. It's allowing for a wider variety of lists.

Stress Wing, baby! (VI, R3-A2, Engine, on a PS 7-8 X-wing)

I very rarely see phantoms at my local gaming sites anymore. They still exist, but there's been less and less whisper chiraneau copy-pastes as of late (only 3 out of 12-13 ) if only to make room for more Dash and Paul Heaver fans...

With regards to meta-shifts caused by the Phantom.

Never discount the die-hards that refuse to adapt to the Phantom, and by that I mean refuse to become better at flying.

I've had to persuade two guys here to actively unlearn formation flying and adapt, they are a lot better at flying generics, etc, and are taking down Phantoms regularly now.

Yes it caused a stir, yes the old ways of flying will punish you.

"it is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself."

You know I think the whole rock/paper scissors thing is sorta healthy for the game.

If there was just ONE list that won ALL the time then we would have an issue.

Gotta try and compare this game to Street Fighter or Tekken

There are S class ships that are top of the line good point per whatever ratio, A class that can do well but just have a slightly larger issue than the S class (maybe less upgrades, defense, options whatever), this continues through D.

Now the cool thing is that not all S lists are the same, some S lists are S/A or S/B. Which include powerful ships but have that rock/paper/scissors effect against certain popular builds. Sometimes you get a guy who is really really really good at flying a bunch of C ships and can hold his own against better S ships.

One of the big things for me is that I try not to go out and net deck. I figure out what works well and consistent within my local meta. I play online and get a lot of practice in. This has allowed me to refine my current squad and it has given me two Firsts and a 2nd in the three store championships I've played. If you play enough you learn how to tweak your squad to work (or when to let go and build a new one).

I've Tried dumb things like Boba with Ysanne and PTL, it just doesn't work! The wins aren't there the effect is too gimmiky and boba dies too fast. I'm always out looking for new stuff to, I can't sit on a single squad for more than a few months before I really start making changes and find new things that work.

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE

also didn't we have this same discussion about 3p0 when he first came out?

You know I think the whole rock/paper scissors thing is sorta healthy for the game.

If there was just ONE list that won ALL the time then we would have an issue.

Gotta try and compare this game to Street Fighter or Tekken

While I'll agree that 3 types of lists are better than just one, I still say that that is boring. With all the dang blasted variations you can do in this game, there should be more than just 3 types of builds. I want to see less than 25% of all tournament lists have a big turreted ship of any type in it. That will be variety in my opinion. I don't want tot see a single type have more than 25% of the lists.

I just don't think that is possible, not right now anyway. It isn't as bad as Han was last year by far either. During the Ohio regional one of my friends faced 4 double falcon builds in a row. This year I have seen less than 40% of dual turrets or meta. Now a point to be made is what is actually WINNING the tournament.

Pairing is everything too.

Well there are builds that beat one of the pillars, but loose to the other two, so it's like a giant rock paper scissor web

You know I think the whole rock/paper scissors thing is sorta healthy for the game.

If there was just ONE list that won ALL the time then we would have an issue.

Gotta try and compare this game to Street Fighter or Tekken

While I'll agree that 3 types of lists are better than just one, I still say that that is boring. With all the dang blasted variations you can do in this game, there should be more than just 3 types of builds. I want to see less than 25% of all tournament lists have a big turreted ship of any type in it. That will be variety in my opinion. I don't want tot see a single type have more than 25% of the lists.

Alot of those variations aren't good at winning tournaments...

I also agree that it's not possible at this junction, as well. That's the problem, though. That's why a lot of people are very frustrated with the game.

Also, I don't want to make a difference as to what wins and what you face. This is due to the fact of facing so many of the same lists. Or same enough lists. To be honest, having a big, turreted ship as at least one of your ships puts you in a category that's all the same to me. Yeah, it is different for a Falcon and Cornhole or Decimator and Phantom, but it's all kind of the same, really. It's a big hitty ship with either one nasty elite paired with it or a mini swarm.

You know I think the whole rock/paper scissors thing is sorta healthy for the game.

anything is better than one dominating list, but rock-paper-scissors is anathema to what is supposed to be a tactical game

while silly **** and plain old inefficiently priced pilots will always exist (no one's perfect) FFG has been able to maintain an incredibly stable variety of very solid builds and pilots up until Wave 5 made everyone crazy

while match-ups will always be a factor, if they're the deciding point then you might as well just deploy, pack-up, and move on to another game

I don't personally feel we're at that stage (only that some games against turrets might as well be decided by a coin-flip in the opening turn )

Maybe the Indiana/chicago area has just been lucky then because I haven't been seeing nearly as many builds as people have been complaining about.

Come out this way and join us!!

That's what I don't like about this meta. If I bring my paper list and my opponent has rock, then he has an uphill battle. If I face scissors next match I'm done for.

This game was better when it was XXBB vs. Tie Swarms and such, seemed like there were more soft counter matchups. Now we have this annoying hard counter meta. You don't build a list that can deal with a phantom, you lose. You fly the phantom, you lose to someone's turret. You fly a turret and you lose to 7 z95's and an a wing. This loses to the phantom. Etc.

It's exceedingly difficult to kill a phantom with something not specifically put into your list to deal with it. Besides for goofy builds, you should be able to build a wide variety of lists and have a decent chance, Phantom changed that.

That's what I don't like about this meta. If I bring my paper list and my opponent has rock, then he has an uphill battle. If I face scissors next match I'm done for.

This game was better when it was XXBB vs. Tie Swarms and such, seemed like there were more soft counter matchups. Now we have this annoying hard counter meta. You don't build a list that can deal with a phantom, you lose. You fly the phantom, you lose to someone's turret. You fly a turret and you lose to 7 z95's and an a wing. This loses to the phantom. Etc.

It's exceedingly difficult to kill a phantom with something not specifically put into your list to deal with it. Besides for goofy builds, you should be able to build a wide variety of lists and have a decent chance, Phantom changed that.

While the match-up skews are a little more severe than they used to be, I do think the top lists share several common counters and all of them are control elements

Including ion in my squads has allowed my to absolute eviscerate elite, small ships such as PTL anything (most commonly corran) and phantoms (cannot de-cloak) but it fares far worse against turrets (stupid 360 degree arc) unless they're rubbing up against an asteroid

Stress (namely stackable stress ala Rebel Captive, Tactician, and the shining star of R3-A2) is incredibly effective across every enemy ship type. Even turrets are much easier to keep in arc when they're limited to their green maneuvers, or else easier to hit if they forfeit their evade/isanne/boost etc. Against most varieties of ship, denying the K-turn gives you a definite edge (so every ship sans Defender,who loses "only" his hard 1 and 2 turns )

Sadly, my fondness for control limits me mostly to playing Rebels this wave because imperials just don't have access to the same tools (namely the X and B wings). The ion Defender is a money ship, but it cannot induce stress and my favorite set-up (Soontir, Defender, Defender) won't be ready to go competitive without AT (soon!). R3-A2 is obviously out of the picture, and tactician is limited to phantom/shuttle/firespray/decimator and is, imo, not a great choice on any of them (except the Firespray, go double arcs!). Imps do have rebel captive, but it's unique (for obvious reasons). Also, apart from the shuttle (which has its own issue of being slower than dried ****), they lack a key advantage of rebel control ships: being reasonably priced.

Wave 6 won't introduce many stress-inducers to the imperial arsenal, but it is instead unlocking the interceptor and advance for viable use in competitive play, which is (imo) even better Until that (very close) time, however, non-meta imps should rely on unique rebels such as Rebel Captive and Vader. The shuttle itself is not a bad ship at all against phantoms because it can be exceptionally accurate, but it obviously won't take it down one-on-one (mainly because you're never going to get it in arc without the rest of the squad helping out).

So, apart from the Stress Wing (which I will ceaselessly gush over for the rest of my involvement in this game, don't you worry ), I also recommend Tactician/Ion cannon B-wings and Ion Cannon Turret + R3-A2 Goldie. Control Generics don't have the easiest time lining arcs, but the opponents fear them to the point that you can orientate your arcs to cover them with pretty good odds that they will be among the first targets. The greatest strength of control generics, however, is redundancy (facilitated by their 25 point price tag). While I wouldn't double down on IC + R3-A2 Golds (too little damage on big ships), stacking Blues of any kind is very effective because they possess both the control and the damage dice necessary to take on the twin horrors of the derivative wave 5 2-ship builds.

Of the two, I definitely prefer stress in terms of specifically countering this meta and I prefer Ion for more general use. This is because the stress mechanics are completely dice independent (THANK RNGESUS for keeping his nose out of this affair!) while Ion cannons are not, but are so incredibly devastating against arc ships because they essentially won't be able to shoot you (and you thus avoid dice in the fire exchange...except turrets ). If you're only packing ion, bring at least 2 sources if you hope to get through Whisper's defenses. Generally, though, I'd recommend mixing stress and ion (The peanut butter and jelly of the "oh...I guess that ship is pretty worthless now" sandwich).

More recently, I've been running Stress Luke w/Double Ion Blues and a silly Refit Proto-type as my preferred rebel squad (Stress Wes, Biggs, and lost Banditos being an incredibly effective but very mentally taxing list to play) and having a ball with them . So far, the only time they've lost to 2 ship builds is when the green dice go H.A.M in their quest to **** with fickle.

Well yes, there is the 4th option that everyone forgets about called Control. I don't always feel like running my 12 PS swarm tactics ion turret Phantom Player Tear Siphon list everytime I play though. Maybe I'd like to run yorr's shuttle and 3 ptl interceptors. That gets crushed by everything in the current meta, whereas it would be at least somewhat viable if it didn't have to face the phantom or a turret in EVERY list. It doesn't have a turret, it isn't a swarm, doesn't have a phantom, or control options, so why run it?

Again, my opponent plops down his phantom deci and auto loses to my 12 PS ion blasts and stressbot. Annoying hard counter meta, match was decided when pairings were decided.

Well yes, there is the 4th option that everyone forgets about called Control. I don't always feel like running my 12 PS swarm tactics ion turret Phantom Player Tear Siphon list everytime I play though. Maybe I'd like to run yorr's shuttle and 3 ptl interceptors. That gets crushed by everything in the current meta, whereas it would be at least somewhat viable if it didn't have to face the phantom or a turret in EVERY list. It doesn't have a turret, it isn't a swarm, doesn't have a phantom, or control options, so why run it?

Again, my opponent plops down his phantom deci and auto loses to my 12 PS ion blasts and stressbot. Annoying hard counter meta, match was decided when pairings were decided.

but, as I tried to mention in my post, there are several forms of control. You don't just need the Stress Wing or Roark, those are simply the most optimal phantom counters.

A tactician B-wing is a terror to anything that doesn't hard counter B-wings. The stress hurts action dependent aces, fat turrets, and even basic ships by giving the B-wing super jousting capabilities (i.e, it can actually K-turn and the other guy can't). Meanwhile, their natural 3 die offense is completely unchanged. Similarly, an Ion B works over small ships while retaining its innate 3 dice offense for larger ones.

You put an ion Y against anything that isn't a large ship and it can be a terrible pain to even properly engage when you're drifting through space with your arc facing the void and your rear exposed.

These are not ships that get cock-blocked by simple match-ups, they're actually quite flexible.

The only match-up I'd be loath to engage in would be against Tie Swarms. Those buggers are brutal, but they're also rare (high skill requirement and very tiring to use repeatedly) and not an auto-loss. In fact, I ran into a Tie Swarm at a local Tourny last Sunday and it was an incredibly fun nail-biter of a game, but I managed to pull through with a proto-type and an undamaged Luke (that ability is so clutch against 2 dice ships) versus Mauler and another Tie. Then again, a game like that was so fun and refreshing that I would not have cared if I had lost

Control isn't a simply matter of building a single list to counter Wave 5, it's a multitude of options that just happens to be able to stand very well against the meta

Now, if you want guarantees against phantoms (I know I do), you will have to cull a bit of the balance to introduce a specialist, but even those are not morbidly expensive and they can be quite well rounded (Stress Wings are still PS 10 X-wings, after all)

If you're looking for more inclusive variety, though, Wave 5 isn't it. I would never defend the state of the current meta and have been devoting most of my X-wing time to just running it into the ground and force some change (hence the stress wing). For the Yorr, triple 'ceptors, you're going to have to wait a few more days.

All I'm doing is sharing the things I've found could survive those putrid waters while being flexible enough to continue into the new, hopefully brighter future of Wave 6. There are a few diamonds to be found in this ****-colored turret & phantom feeding trough we call a meta

How few Phantoms there are, how overwhelmingly dominant Fat Han still is, and how the majority of players just bring whatever strikes their fancy instead of going with a "metagame pillar".

1/17
-Winner:
---Chiraneau with VI, Engine, Jerjerrod, Isard
---Whisper with VI, ACD, FCS, Rebel Captive

1/31
-Winner:
---Oicunn with Predator, Rebel Captive, Isard, Gunner, Engine Upgrade
---Whisper with VI, ACD, FCS

2/07
-Winner:
---Corran w/ VI, FCS, R2D2, Engine
---Tycho w/ ATP, PTL, Daredevil, Prockets, Experimental Interface
---Prototype w/ Chardaan Refit

2/15
-Winner:
---Corran w/ R2D2, FCS, PTL, Engine
---Chewy w/ Predator, C3PO, Engine

2/21
-Winner:
---Chewy w/ Gunner, C3PO, Falcon
---Leebo w/ Predator, HLC, Outrider

2/22
-Winner:
---Chewy w/ Predator, R2D2, C3PO, Falcon
---Leebo w/ Predator, HLC, Recon Spec

These are the results of the most recent SC's in my area. Only one has something that's not a turret, and it still has a fat Corran in it. All the casual games in my area are just practicing with lists like these and it's obnoxious.

I need someone to photoshop a smokey the bear "only you can prevent forest fires" poster to read "only you can prevent fat turret dominance" (and make smokey darth vader while you're at it )

Going by the store championship thread, we've had plenty of crazy lists top out in first and my local store championship had both myself and the swarm player (then using Roark with Tarn, Airen, and a B-wing) absolutely ****** by horrible dice, but at least the Roark list took 2nd place (I got dropped to top 10 after losing one more game to a rebel swarm I was completely unprepared for )

The winner, of course, was Chiraneau whisper but not because of either of us. I sadly did not get to face that list and the Roark player beat it handily, losing only to YT-1300 and a particularly charmed Lando crew and dropping to 2nd because of tie breaker scores (whisper chiraneau had 4 victories at ending in 200 to 0 scores, absolutely ploughing through the dashes and hans that polluted the place that day, and I know the guy so I'm willing to say its not 100% the list's fault...).

Also, let us not confuse causalities. If more than 80% of the SC players are running Wave 5 crap and Wave 5 crap lists happen to place high...

4x Tactician B wings seems pretty nasty, I have every requisite thing for this list except for the extra seat cards, which I just ordered off ebay. Both control and firepower. Seems kind of difficult to consistantly get range 2 though with large ship barrel roll + boost.

I have 4 tactician, ordered two more extra seat cards for my b wings. 4x Tactician B wings seems pretty nasty. Both control and firepower. Seems kind of difficult to consistantly get range 2 though with large ship barrel roll + boost.

It is difficult...for one B-wing to get consistent range 2

I have 4 tactician, ordered two more extra seat cards for my b wings. 4x Tactician B wings seems pretty nasty. Both control and firepower. Seems kind of difficult to consistantly get range 2 though with large ship barrel roll + boost.

It is difficult...for one B-wing to get consistent range 2

Yeah, that's why you have 4 lol. Once something gets (double) stressed it then becomes easier to stress even more. Should shut down anything based around PtL, or the Phantom. Other big turrets might be able to squeak by with freebie shenanigans like c3po and predator and the rear admiral's free focus thing, but they're not going to be boosting anymore.