Hi

what will be the result for the following example ? Also can you explain how you worked out your answer. The definition of Pierce found on page 20 of the reference manual is confusing to our group. We're not sure what the game means by ignore X results.

Attacker's dice result : 3 damage, 1 surge (spent on pierce 3)

Defender's dice result : 6 block

thanks

0 dmg even with pierce 3.

6 - 3(pierce) = 3 defense left

The surge is better spent on something else (strain removal)

You roll 1 damage

The defender rolls 1 block.

You do no damage.

You roll 1 damage and 1 surge which you spend on Pierce 1

The defender rolls 1 block.

Your Pierce 1 cancels the 1 block result.

You deal 1 damage.

You roll 3 damage and 1 surge which you spend on Pierce 3

The defender rolls 6 block.

Your Pierce 3 will cancel 3 of the 6 block results

You now still have 3 damage

The Defender has 3 block left over.

You deal no damage.

For every 1 Pierce, you can substract 1 block result from his total.

3 damage and pierce 3 against 6 block = 0 damage.

every pierce point ignores a block point, so with pierce 3 you cancel 3 block, but still 3 block left, so no damage. to deal any damage first you need to surpass the defense roll results.

Probably you are thinking that as "pierce" ignores block, you deal 3 damage using pierce 3, but pierce only says you ignore X "block" results. so unless you deal a lot of damage or have a higher pierce value, the defense is still "blocking" your attack with another 3 points in your example.

Simplest solution:

Each point of Pierce *CANCELS* a rolled Block result.

Simplest solution:

Each point of Pierce *CANCELS* a rolled Block result.

Does it ONLY cancel a rolled block? What about a block from an effect like "Protector" or Luke has an automatic block?

For example... You do 3 damage to a Storm Trooper, plus a surge for Pierce 2, that is next to a Royal Guard.

The ST rolls 1 defense on his black die, and gets one defense from the Protector effect from the RG.

If it only cancels a rolled Block result, then the ST would survive because it gets one more "unrolled" defense from the RG.

Yeah, it's *any* block result, as pierce, surges, evade and other bonuses are all applies during step 4 "apply modifiers" of the attack.

I was just going for the quick, easy, simple answer.

So the conclusion is that pierce besides cancelling block rolls also cancels heroes natural block abilities as for example Luke and Gaarkhan has ?

Pierce cancels the block icon - so yes - it cancels both the block icon on the dice as well as the block icon printed on deployment cards.

generally speaking:

we just total the damage, total the defense (any blocks rolled or given)

subtract pierce from blocks

subtract remaining blocks from damage to give you total damage after

Hold on, I asked this in a different post and got a different answer. The rules say pierce IGNORES a block, not cancels it.

So in an example to illustrate:

Rebel rolls 2 damage and 1 surge.

Imperial rolls 3 block.

Rebel spends surge on pierce, therefore 1 of his damage results ignores a block and the imperial takes 1 damage.

If this was a cancel:

Rebel rolls 2 damage and 1 surge.

Imperial rolls 3 block.

Rebel spends surge on pierce, so now it's 2v2 no damage.

These are completely different results, and the second one is WRONG.

Cancel and ignore function similarly. Just look at your first example if you "ignore" 1 block there are still 2 blocks that you are not ignoring so none of your damage goes through.

Hold on, I asked this in a different post and got a different answer. The rules say pierce IGNORES a block, not cancels it.

So in an example to illustrate:

Rebel rolls 2 damage and 1 surge.

Imperial rolls 3 block.

Rebel spends surge on pierce, therefore 1 of his damage results ignores a block and the imperial takes 1 damage.

If this was a cancel:

Rebel rolls 2 damage and 1 surge.

Imperial rolls 3 block.

Rebel spends surge on pierce, so now it's 2v2 no damage.

These are completely different results, and the second one is WRONG.

The pierce doesn't allow a damage to ignore a block. It simply ignores the existence of a block and if there are enough block to left over to cancel all damage then no damage is done.

Ugh. See I can read it both ways which is why I asked the TO, and then I posted the question in a different post. Both answers came back the way I originally had it. So I guess an entire store championship was played incorrectly.

This should be in the faq, I've looked in the IA faq and the descent faq and nothing. This should be made clear if they're going to have competitive matches.

Ok, first off, stop looking at the Descent rules for IA stuff. Yes, they are similar games, and the rules are extremely similar. But IA made enough changes that you cannot use Descent as a reference point.

As for clarity, the RRG ("Pierce", Page 20) is pretty clear:

Pierce
This keyword allows a figure to ignore a number of ▼(block) results while attacking. For example, “Pierce 2” allows an attack to ignore up to 2▼ results.

• If the number of ▼ results is less than the Pierce value, the excess Pierce value has no effect.

• If multiple Pierce abilities are used during an attack, their values are added together.

This does not mean that pierce is automatic damage regardless of block results. Pierce just ignores block results.

So, the formula used is as follows:

Damage Result = ( Damage generated ) - ( Blocks "▼" - Pierce )

Examples:

Attack Roll: 4 damage , and 1 surge (Spent for Pierce 1 )

Defense Roll: 3 ▼

Result: 2 damage. ( 4 damage - ( 3 ▼ - Pierce 1 = 2 ▼ ) = 2 Damage
---

Attack Roll: 2 damage , and 1 surge (Spent for Pierce 1 )

Defense Roll: 3 ▼

Result: 0 damage. ( 2 damage - ( 3 ▼ - Pierce 1 = 2 ▼ ) = 0 Damage

---

Attack Roll: 2 damage , and 1 surge (Spent for Pierce 1 )

Defense Roll: 1 ▼

Result: 0 damage. ( 2 damage - ( 1 ▼ - Pierce 1 = 0 ▼ ) = 2 Damage

Ugh. See I can read it both ways which is why I asked the TO, and then I posted the question in a different post. Both answers came back the way I originally had it.

This thread?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/185886-2-questions/

Because PatrickMahan did answer correctly that pierce reduces the number of blocks.

If you would have taken a look at the Rules Reference Guide, you would have found "Attacks" on page 5:

Steps of An ATTACk

When a figure performs an attack, it resolves the following steps:

[...]

4. Apply Modifiers:If players have any effects that gain or

remove icons or Accuracy, they are applied at this time. This

includes spending Evade results to remove Surge results.

Any Surge abilities that provide modifiers are not resolved until

step 5.

5. Spend Surges:If the attacker has any Surge results, he may

spend them to trigger special abilities.

6. Check Accuracy: If performing a ranged attack (O) the total

Accuracy value must be equal to or greater than the number

of spaces the target is away from the attacker. (See “Counting

Spaces” on page 9). If the total Accuracy value is less than

this number, the attack is a miss.

7. Calculate Damage:The total number of Block results is

subtracted from the total number of Damage results, and

then the target suffers all remaining Damage.

And "Pierce" on page 20:

This keyword allows a figure to ignore a number of Block

results while attacking. For example, “Pierce 2” allows an attack to

ignore up to 2 Block results.

• If the number of Block results is less than the Pierce value, the

excess Pierce value has no effect.

• If multiple Pierce abilities are used during an attack, their

values are added together.

Since Block is only used in Step 7 of the Attack, and Pierce tells you to ignore up to 2 Block results , it's quite clearly described. There is no mention of Pierce damage dealing damage through Blocks. You only are instructed to subtract Blocks from the rolled Damage and, if you have Pierce, ignore a specific amount of Blocks during this calcuation.

When in doubt, look up the rules in the Rules Reference Guide. That's what it's for.

Haha, I'm like 2 years late to the party here.

If Pierce only removes blocks then why not just have more damage instead of this pointless mechanic called Pierce? It's the same as normal damage as long as you rolled damage in the first place, right?

1 damage and 1 pierce against 1 block is the exact same as 2 damage against 1 block. Why have the option to spend a surge on either a Pierce or a Damage?

IMHO Pierce should be Damage that ignores block. Otherwise just spend your surge on Damage, right?

Because Pierce does nothing if there are no blocks, but damage does.

2 hours ago, CosmoPrime said:

Otherwise just spend your surge on Damage, right?

Correct, +damage is strictly better than doing pierce

Allowing figures to do pierce will increase the damage floor while maintaining the damage ceiling

Free Pierce 3 (like Palpatine) = meh ok it just means 5/6 on black die won't do anything

Imagine we change Palpatine to be free +3 damage...now he's terrifying against both black and white dice no matter what your opponent roll

Then there's stuff like Zillo can negate Pierce but can't do anything against +damage

1 hour ago, ricope said:

Correct, +damage is strictly better than doing pierce

Allowing figures to do pierce will increase the damage floor while maintaining the damage ceiling

Free Pierce 3 (like Palpatine) = meh ok it just means 5/6 on black die won't do anything

Imagine we change Palpatine to be free +3 damage...now he's terrifying against both black and white dice no matter what your opponent roll

Then there's stuff like Zillo can negate Pierce but can't do anything against +damage

I get that situation. That makes sense.

ricope, do you think they made Pierce the way it is for balance sake? As I'm thinking about how Pierce works I'm seeing that if you have the surges to use it allows you to make powerful attacks without being "overpowered." At least that's how I'm starting to see it.

Remember that you can only use each surge ability once. If you roll three surges, you need three different surge abilities to use them on. You can only use the surge for 1 dmg once, so the second one would be spent on pierce 1.

49 minutes ago, CosmoPrime said:

I get that situation. That makes sense.

ricope, do you think they made Pierce the way it is for balance sake? As I'm thinking about how Pierce works I'm seeing that if you have the surges to use it allows you to make powerful attacks without being "overpowered." At least that's how I'm starting to see it.

Feel free to re-visit the old terror that is 4x4 and you'll realize how big of a nerf it is to change the Royal Guard from a ~: +2 dmg to ~: Pierce 1

~: +2dmg was amazing and made rRGs the best unit for your bucks (skirmish squad cost/campaign threat cost)

Now with a ~: Pierce 1 they hit like a wet noodle

You can play around and check out the % distribution between "~: +X dmg" vs. "~: Pierce X" with the calculator http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/

Not much difference when X is 1, but the power curve changes by a lot when X is 2 or 3

25 minutes ago, ricope said:

You can play around and check out the % distribution between "~: +X dmg" vs. "~: Pierce X" with the calculator http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/

My mind is getting blown here. Math and Statistics are a bit of a concept I don't do well with. Is this a probability calculator?

1 hour ago, CosmoPrime said:

My mind is getting blown here. Math and Statistics are a bit of a concept I don't do well with. Is this a probability calculator?

yep, just plug in the parameters and move your mouse cursor over the curve. It shows you the % to do at least X damage

There are some caveats, like it doesn't take into accounts of min/max accuracy or reroll abilities

Just now, ricope said:

yep, just plug in the parameters and move your mouse cursor over the curve. It shows you the % to do at least X damage

There are some caveats, like it doesn't take into accounts of min/max accuracy or reroll abilities

You rock, ricope. Thanks.