Many, many rules and adjudication questions

By BarbeChenue, in Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG

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RAW, Jury Rigged applies to each activation. I'm thinking this might be a decent house rule though. It wouldn't absolutely gimp the build, and would bring its effect in line with the other benefits of Jury Rigged, like Damage +1 and the reduced cost of activation of other qualities, which usually can only be activated once (contrary to Autofire, which is endlessly repeatable). I might as well apply it to the critical injury rating reduction as well, so for example, it would only affect the initial "triggering" of the crit, not all the other activations that add +10 on the Critical Injury table.

What do others think about this? Is this too much of a nerf bat?

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I think that these weapons exist, and are just as powerful as the system represents. Watch the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, that's based on actual accounts of events. Those machine guns are just devastating, and these Auto-Fire weapons are the Star Wars equivalent. I wish the rules where better around portability of these guns, but I think the mechanics of how they damage is well designed.

Taking them out would be similar to taking out all SSD's, or saying jet packs are out, taking away force Lightning. They are a part of the world, and should be represented.

IMHO the cumbersome quality is to easy, it doesn't go far enough. they should require at least a prepare action to use, and another to pack up to move (or else they are ponderous when not packed up properly) and the bigger ones should probably require a second person. I also think the ammo should run out easier, always having to use a despair is a bit to meta. Something like a reload is required after every 4 uses, simulating the replacement of the ammo belt (or in this case the energy pack)

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Do you allow these hit & run tactics to make your players immune to attacks?

Use the 3 threats to run out of ammo of the heavy blaster with auto weapons. Bump up the difficulty if the character uses full auto each round thus increasing the likelihood of a run out of ammo result.

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Unless “Hit-and-Run” is a talent I don’t know of, then the tactic you’ve described so far doesn’t exist — while he is in a position to be able to fire at others, then they can fire at him. There’s no popping out of cover to fire, then popping back into cover and making sure that you don’t take any damage.

I think it'd be a practice of "Maneuver: leave cover to get a target; Action: shoot; spend 2 Strain for 2nd Maneuver to move back out of LOS."

I wouldn't allow that, and the game doesn't intend to allow it. Even though everybody "takes turns" the resolution is still considered somewhat simultaneous. If you are exposed during the turn, the best you can do is use a maneuver to take cover. You can't get out of LOS. If you start your turn out of LOS and stay there, then nobody can shoot at you; but if you expose yourself at all, then all you have is cover.

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Concerning #1, I have found a calculator you can use to justify not allowing them to rip steel girders and such without a hefty amount of strength modifiers.

http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/v-bending-force

Assuming a metal beam with the tensile strength of high quality steel (95,000), 6" in width, and a thickness of 12" it would require a bending force of 1,137,150 lbs or 568.58 tons.

If I recall, the Move power is based on Silhouette. So I would think a minimum of 3 or 4 Silhouette equivalent to bend structural steel bars. Perhaps more with the assumption that Star Wars Durasteel is even stronger than most modern steel.

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Weeee!


1) I've allowed this a few times in my game – indeed it's our Jedi's preferred method due to being slightly less obvious then tossing objects. However, I did require he have the "Rip from mountings" move upgrade, and has to have the strength to effect the entire ripped object (the whole support strut, etc.) I also tend to give the effected targets a vigilance check to get out of the way/off the item as there seems to be some warning before the supports let go.


2) If they can meet the distance and size requirements, and have a window, I don't see why not. It'd probably be discipline vs. Pilot to crash the vehicle, though – unlike people, speeders have thrust and control surfaces for moving through air.


3) I treat LoS as it sounds the ability to directly see the target in question. Sense is not precise enough to count as seeing someone.


4) I'd probably also require the spending of Destany, and for it to be a particularly epic moment. But that's a lot of pips.


5) I don't have any players with that power, but IIRC it only effects a couple targets, and has specific size limits. I suppose in theory they could make someone not notice the door, but I'd give them a good shot of 'dispelling' it if they know the door is supposed to be there. Doors don't move after all.


6) If he's coming out from cover, the enemies should get a chance to shoot on their initiative using the cover rules. Going out from line of sight, firing, and going back in is exactly what fighting from cover is. Remember, although we take turns rolling, the characters aren’t just standing there while he takes his turn, then have him stand there while they act. Basically, if there is any point during the turn where they had LoS, they get to shoot.


7) This happens in almost any system where 1 player is combat monster and the others are not. (For me, this is Rogue Trader) Up the difficulty and target the person the challenge is. Combats are his arena, let him handle them the way the slicer handles computers.


8) I'm not sure it's an issue unless the players go out of their way to break it.


9, 10) I only allow the recovery of strain from the encounter they're in. So they only recover combat strain during that combat, social strain during that social encounter etc. If you're still having a multi-roll issue, I'd consider limiting it to 1/round. I've considered cutting out advantage-based strain recover entirely, but it hasn't been a big enough issue yet to bother.


11) Assume they're assisting the highest. If there are a number of assisting NPCs where having more is helpful (like watching for intruders) I'll add an additional blue/black for every 2 extra people.


12) I've never had it matter, but I'd say both are actions.


13) When it's needed, may players are good at not metagaming them. Advantage/triumph often puts them in a good position accidently. (such as starting behind cover)


14) I generally treat the instigator as the positive dice, and the reactor as the negative dice.


15) I normally flip all dice for opposed checks.


16) I don't go above threshold, but we do allow stun to roll critical hits, adjusted to make sense. This means they can cause real injury if used excessively – this has rarely been the case though.


17) Hasn't happened to me – Also, hatches should be locked. I wouldn't allow for targeting of specific locations on small mobile vehicles. Big vehicles are more akin to terrain then combatants.


18) If they can get the 1pt of damage they need to actually get a crit, sure.


19) I often let scanners grant bonus to Vigilance checks to notice something they could detect, assuming the players are not actively using them to search point. Even if the scanner picked it up (on its current settings, we see them fiddled with all the time) the character holding it might not have noticed in time. Most hard materials seem to dampen or completely block scanners.


20) Like what you found, I play that there are hyperwave transmitters and they have enough range to typically get to the next half-dozen systems or so (depending on density and strength). These are your more internet/standard phone network. I usually play up the "almost"-instantaneous nature of the communications though. Next system over, it's noticeable. Across a quarter-sector with a priority connection to keep it together, you can still video-chat, but with a noticeable delay. Any farther than that, you'd want to send a text or email, it'll take a few minutes to find its way to its destination. (Though a particular companies relays, assuming you have a contract with them.) This is also what I assume most civilians are taking about when they say "Holonet", despite it not actually being the original Holonet (which the Empire restricted access to)
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There are a lot of great answers for this on here already, but I thought I’d also add my two credits worth.

1. I haven’t run into this, but I’d make it really hard to do. I’d agree with the answers above where the Force User would have to be able to pick up the whole object and have the Fine Manipulation upgrade to be able to attempt this. Also, consider Force Unleashed to not be strict cannon. It’s what a movie in the Star Wars universe can do. Those powers are cranked up to eleven and are not realistic in context with the movies. Think long and hard before allowing anything a player first saw in the FU video games.
2. The object picked up has to be within short range of the Force User. If the character is within short range of the starship and has the power upgrades, then sure. Just remember that planetary short is a hell of a lot longer than personal short.
3. If you can’t see it, you can’t affect it. That’s how I play it. (No, I don’t have an answer as to how Vader can force choke someone on a different starship that he is watching on a view screen. I’d say it’s an NPC power that players cannot do.)
4. No. I also don’t let range increase talents for guns shoot beyond Extreme range either.
5. I have no experience with FnD.
6. Have the NPCs do the same thing. They can hide and pop out to shoot too.
7. Social encounters and legal issues with autofire guns.
8. I haven’t, but I haven’t had a Marauder dip into Doctor for it. If so, I’d probably go with the Pierce houserule.
9. Strain Recovery is an in-combat thing only in our games. The chart lists things you can do with a combat check. If the book doesn’t call what you’re doing as a combat check then you can’t recover strain with it. For example, my Politico couldn’t recover strain while using Scathing Tirade.
10. No, see above. Piloting is not a combat check so I wouldn’t allow strain recovery with it.
11. Example please? Gut response would be to just roll against the hardest one. Possibly follow the autofire rules to spend advantages to affect extra targets.
12. Whoever is doing it through role playing or whoever is the best. For a while I was trying out letting each assisting player to add a boost die. For stealth, I’d trying to implement the group check from D&D5E, where if half the party passes then the whole party passes if not then the whole party fails.
13. Not really. I just do passive stuff through narration and role playing. No dice needed.
14. Usually the player is the one acting. It’s their show.
15. I don’t think I’ve run into this, but I probably would turn blue into black on an opposed roll. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a way for this to happen. Do you have an example?
16. This hasn’t really come up in any of my games, but I’d do it as the book does it. If the book has no information then I’d probably track it like WT. Which is to say to double ST. For the most part it doesn’t matter because a night of rest will get it all back.
17. Why not? People can target parts/components but they have to use the targeting rules under the aiming rules. When they do, it only shuts it down for a bit. Same with trying to stab someone in the leg to make them slow as described in these rules. If they found a way in to kill the crew, I’d allow it.
18. Yup. I’m undecided if I allow a crit if there is just one personal scale worth of damage over the HT or if I’d require the full ten.
19. Depends on the scanner. In general I require checks and tell the information like the scanners from the Alien movies. Blips on the screen in a direction that are moving. I also require it to take an action, so a player cannot just be constantly using it.
20. We haven’t run into long range communications.

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i can see where your trying to go with this, that jury rigged reduces the advantage cost only by 1 for each use of the weapon. unfortunately its actually reducing the cost to activate that feature of the weapon, which that feature can be activated multiple times each use of the weapon, therefore reducing the cost each time its activated.

Read the material in the topic at http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

They cover Jury Rigged at least a couple of times.

Can you be mores specific where in there it is? A lot to look through.

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What do others think about this? Is this too much of a nerf bat?

Not at all, given how disruptive or impossible-to-balance-around Jury-rigged AF can be.

I think that these weapons exist, and are just as powerful as the system represents. Watch the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, that's based on actual accounts of events. Those machine guns are just devastating, and these Auto-Fire weapons are the Star Wars equivalent. I wish the rules where better around portability of these guns, but I think the mechanics of how they damage is well designed.

Taking them out would be similar to taking out all SSD's, or saying jet packs are out, taking away force Lightning. They are a part of the world, and should be represented.

Oh god. No. Just no.

Taking them out is not on that level. Don't play that kind of a slippery-slope game.

Jury-Rigged Auto-fire can definitely disrupt groups. If a GM's reasonable challenge to 4/5 people is effortlessly mowed down by the 5th person, and any real challenge to that one is super dangerously lethal to the other 4, it's a problem and the GM is well within rights to address it.

Verisimilitude to IRL machine guns isn't even relevant.

Edited by Kshatriya
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To play devil's advocate, do you apply this logic to social or physical encounters as well? If 'surviving' a mixer with their cover intact is a reasonable challenge to 4/5 people and effortless to the 5th, do you feel the need to remove what makes the fifth person so good at social encounters? If climbing down a wall is a reasonable challenge to 4/5 people and effortless to the 5th, do you feel the need to remove that fifth character's climbing gear/grav-belt?

There is a feeling that while expertise is ok, or even expected, in most situations, combat should be close to equal footing across the players. Some who has spent all their xp and money getting better is combat should be significantly better than someone who hasn't, and they play a critical role in those encounters the same way the pilot plays a critical role in space scenes.

(Note: this is not to say Jury-Rigged Autofire isn't itself over powered - but it should be compared to other uses of the talent, or other talents of equal level)

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To play devil's advocate, do you apply this logic to social or physical encounters as well? If 'surviving' a mixer with their cover intact is a reasonable challenge to 4/5 people and effortless to the 5th, do you feel the need to remove what makes the fifth person so good at social encounters? If climbing down a wall is a reasonable challenge to 4/5 people and effortless to the 5th, do you feel the need to remove that fifth character's climbing gear/grav-belt?

I don't think these situations are readily comparable. While I would love for everyone to participate in social events, the fact is that a lot of times players default to the face doing it, even if a system like Edge lets you roll your Characteristic dice straight and can get great results with those.

Some people build characters who have no interest in socializing and during a social scene might just give assists by looking imposing, or pretty much just bodyguard someone else. But it's much harder to build a character who doesn't interact with combat at all, unless you have a character who runs and hides every time initiative is called - and that can be hard to deal with too.

The fact also is that while social situations can be more important than combat, they're rarely as immediately lethal. That does give incentive for every character to participate, to ensure the group survives.

There is a feeling that while expertise is ok, or even expected, in most situations, combat should be close to equal footing across the players. Some who has spent all their xp and money getting better is combat should be significantly better than someone who hasn't, and they play a critical role in those encounters the same way the pilot plays a critical role in space scenes.

Hmm, well I would expect the combat spec to demolish enemies faster than the Politico, all things being equal. But that doesn't mean that churning out 130 damage per round on your Nemesis is reasonable either. If a situation would be a challenge but for one portion of a character's build (and let's be real, it's not the Agi 5 or the R: Heavy 3 that are the real issues, even if they generate the dice pool that throws out Adv, it's cheap-as-hell 1 Adv Auto-fire triggers) then it's reasonable to consider that one portion of the total build overpowered. And, arguably worse, it can lead to One True Builds when that kind of power is discovered.

Even without Auto-fire at 1 Adv I would say a Bounty Hunter is going to be better at combat than a Politico, unless they invested very specifically - simply due to starting skills and other Talents providing a cheaper opportunity cost to get that good. But there is a gulf of difference between "the BH is better at combat" and "the BH obviates the whole rest of the party in combat encounters."

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I think that these weapons exist, and are just as powerful as the system represents. Watch the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, that's based on actual accounts of events. Those machine guns are just devastating, and these Auto-Fire weapons are the Star Wars equivalent. I wish the rules where better around portability of these guns, but I think the mechanics of how they damage is well designed.

Taking them out would be similar to taking out all SSD's, or saying jet packs are out, taking away force Lightning. They are a part of the world, and should be represented.

Oh god. No. Just no.

Taking them out is not on that level. Don't play that kind of a slippery-slope game.

Jury-Rigged Auto-fire can definitely disrupt groups. If a GM's reasonable challenge to 4/5 people is effortlessly mowed down by the 5th person, and any real challenge to that one is super dangerously lethal to the other 4, it's a problem and the GM is well within rights to address it.

Verisimilitude to IRL machine guns isn't even relevant.

I think you missed my point, and I apologise for not being clearer.

So your Star Wars universe does not have machine guns (which is clearly what the heavy repeating blaster is replicating).

But why does that mean no one can have them, they need rules too. Machine guns obliterate infantry, but are not that great against tanks. SSD's obliterate the population of entire planets...

The point I wanted to make is that the player finds mowing down enemy infantry with that character fun, don't kill their fun, if anything the other 5 characters are freed up to explore different character options. Then when the big gun is rendered useless by the story it creates even more fun gameplay.

It's the GM's job to make sure everyone is have fun and having their time to shine, if the party consists of 5 combat monkeys and only 1 gets to do all the killing (and all the party do is kill) then 4 pc's and a GM are not having fun. This scenario probably needs a party TPK or similar with a reboot starting with a well planed session 0 and a party goal (listen to the most recent tales from the Hydian Way podcast for a great example episode 25).

There are many many ways to narratively take an auto fire weapon out of scenes, there are also ways to point them at PC's. If you don't want your party to have them, fine, but make that clear during session 0, not after a player has sunk 100xp post creation and 10,000cr on the gear.

If you wanted to re-create the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, what rules would you use?

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I would love to see an example of dice pools and scene description that leads to 130 damage being dealt. How many of each dice in the pool? Is the hardest to hit contributing adversary? Is there setback for armour and environment, is the PC aiming? Is soak being removed from every hit? It sounds like a roll with 8 advantage to get that high!