The only complaints I remember hearing about the dial was from people that expected it to have a green hard-2 to fulfill the role of a TIE Interceptor,

No, people were complaining that it didn't feel like an interceptor (the generic term), not necessarily a TIE Interceptor, and that was primarily because it only had 3 greens, not the lack of specific greens. All of which has no relevance to the part of my post you were referencing.

I also don't see anyone complaining about the fact that the dial is slightly better than we thought it was,

read my post, I was posing a hypothetical, I said

And if the dial (meaning the leaked one posted online) had been better than what was actually released,...

there would have been complaining. In other words, if the false dial had been awesome and the real dial worse.

The only complaints I remember hearing about the dial was from people that expected it to have a green hard-2 to fulfill the role of a TIE Interceptor,

No, people were complaining that it didn't feel like an interceptor (the generic term), not necessarily a TIE Interceptor, and that was primarily because it only had 3 greens, not the lack of specific greens. All of which has no relevance to the part of my post you were referencing.

I also don't see anyone complaining about the fact that the dial is slightly better than we thought it was,

read my post, I was posing a hypothetical, I said

And if the dial (meaning the leaked one posted online) had been better than what was actually released,...

there would have been complaining. In other words, if the false dial had been awesome and the real dial worse.

Or could it be that FFG. Posted the poor dial on purpose, knowing that we would find it an post it and talk about. Then, they would know if they needed to change anything. Could they be using our input without us knowing it

Or could it be that FFG. Posted the poor dial on purpose, knowing that we would find it an post it and talk about. Then, they would know if they needed to change anything. Could they be using our input without us knowing it

No the dial was designed over a year before it was spoiled, by the time we found it it was well into production.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't get this. Maybe it's due to some formula that you use, but a Cartel Spacer w/ Mangler Cannon for 20 pts isn't bad to me.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't get this. Maybe it's due to some formula that you use, but a Cartel Spacer w/ Mangler Cannon for 20 pts isn't bad to me.

Let's take the math out of it. Compare it to an Avenger Squadron Interceptor. Same cost, same attack (minus crit conversion), same agility, same hitpoints, but lower PS and worse dial. Most players would say that the Avenger isn't worth its cost, and the interceptor has more going for it than the Scyk. It's a lot of points for low durability and moderate damage.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't get this. Maybe it's due to some formula that you use, but a Cartel Spacer w/ Mangler Cannon for 20 pts isn't bad to me.

Let's take the math out of it. Compare it to an Avenger Squadron Interceptor. Same cost, same attack (minus crit conversion), same agility, same hitpoints, but lower PS and worse dial. Most players would say that the Avenger isn't worth its cost, and the interceptor has more going for it than the Scyk. It's a lot of points for low durability and moderate damage.

It's still a very usable ship, if you have some specific reason for wanting Cartel Space + Mangler Cannon (even if that reason is just "I have 20 points left in my list, so can I afford another 3 Attack ship?") But if you're thinking about a list and your question is "what kind of cannon should I put on my Scyk?", then a control option or a Heavy Laser Cannon will typically be more valuable than a Mangler.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't get this. Maybe it's due to some formula that you use, but a Cartel Spacer w/ Mangler Cannon for 20 pts isn't bad to me.

Let's take the math out of it. Compare it to an Avenger Squadron Interceptor. Same cost, same attack (minus crit conversion), same agility, same hitpoints, but lower PS and worse dial. Most players would say that the Avenger isn't worth its cost, and the interceptor has more going for it than the Scyk. It's a lot of points for low durability and moderate damage.

It's still a very usable ship, if you have some specific reason for wanting Cartel Space + Mangler Cannon (even if that reason is just "I have 20 points left in my list, so can I afford another 3 Attack ship?") But if you're thinking about a list and your question is "what kind of cannon should I put on my Scyk?", then a control option or a Heavy Laser Cannon will typically be more valuable than a Mangler.

Not saying I don't think it has its place. But, for that same 20 points, you can take NDru with Lone Wolf and Intertial Dampeners. More durable, much higher PS, same 3 die primary, 4 at R1, with a reroll on offense and defense. And with the ID, you can do your best to keep your distance. I like the cheap Scyk, I like it with HLC, MAYBE even with a Proton Rockets. And I can get behind Serissu's defense buff as well. But, I certainly think there are better choices for the cost than the Cartel Spacer with Manger. I chose the Avenger in the other post because they are the most statistically and cost(ically?) similar.

I am actually more excited about it than I feel most players are. Serissu will be a mainstay supporter when I play Double Aggressors. the Mangler has its place, too, I'm just not sure its on the Scyk.

But if you're thinking about a list and your question is "what kind of cannon should I put on my Scyk?", then a control option or a Heavy Laser Cannon will typically be more valuable than a Mangler.

Not saying I don't think it has its place. But, for that same 20 points, you can take NDru with Lone Wolf and Intertial Dampeners. More durable, much higher PS, same 3 die primary, 4 at R1, with a reroll on offense and defense. And with the ID, you can do your best to keep your distance. I like the cheap Scyk, I like it with HLC, MAYBE even with a Proton Rockets. And I can get behind Serissu's defense buff as well. But, I certainly think there are better choices for the cost than the Cartel Spacer with Manger. I chose the Avenger in the other post because they are the most statistically and cost(ically?) similar.

I am actually more excited about it than I feel most players are. Serissu will be a mainstay supporter when I play Double Aggressors. the Mangler has its place, too, I'm just not sure its on the Scyk.

N'Dru has drawbacks, though: the Headhunter dial with no barrel roll is a lot less flexible than the Scyk dial, and the "nobody nearby" requirement is tougher in practice than it looks on paper.

I think we mostly agree, though. There are lots of fun things to do with Scyks (19 points for an Ion Cannon? Yes, please), and a number of fun things to do with Mangler Cannons, but the intersection of those two sets is pretty small.

But if you're thinking about a list and your question is "what kind of cannon should I put on my Scyk?", then a control option or a Heavy Laser Cannon will typically be more valuable than a Mangler.

Not saying I don't think it has its place. But, for that same 20 points, you can take NDru with Lone Wolf and Intertial Dampeners. More durable, much higher PS, same 3 die primary, 4 at R1, with a reroll on offense and defense. And with the ID, you can do your best to keep your distance. I like the cheap Scyk, I like it with HLC, MAYBE even with a Proton Rockets. And I can get behind Serissu's defense buff as well. But, I certainly think there are better choices for the cost than the Cartel Spacer with Manger. I chose the Avenger in the other post because they are the most statistically and cost(ically?) similar.

I am actually more excited about it than I feel most players are. Serissu will be a mainstay supporter when I play Double Aggressors. the Mangler has its place, too, I'm just not sure its on the Scyk.

N'Dru has drawbacks, though: the Headhunter dial with no barrel roll is a lot less flexible than the Scyk dial, and the "nobody nearby" requirement is tougher in practice than it looks on paper.

I think we mostly agree, though. There are lots of fun things to do with Scyks (19 points for an Ion Cannon? Yes, please), and a number of fun things to do with Mangler Cannons, but the intersection of those two sets is pretty small.

Fair point on the range requirement. I've only been able to get Lone Wolf to work thru a whole match when its on a Decimator with a Phantom escort. But, hopefully, the Inertial Dampeners upgrade will assist in keeping the space open during a crucial turn. Give it to your other ships, too!

Yeah... having run Lonewolf a few times, that range 1-2 buffer you have to maintain is actually pretty hard with any more than 2 ships.

For 22 points, the HLC Syck is a pretty nice flanker. It throws enough attack dice that the opponent simply can't ignore it, but gives you 78 points to make the other part of your squad scary.

I don't really get how making 1 maneuver green instead of white suddenly makes this ship so much more viable. It's not like Scyks are taking PTL, and it still doesn't have the 1 straight or illicit upgrade slot that it needs to make cannons viable with a 2 point tax.

Why do you need a 1 forward to make cannons viable? I assume you just mean using the HLC? You know, the Mangler Cannon is cheaper and pretty good. You don't need the 1 forward with it.

1 forward REALLY helps the HLC.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't want to tell you that you are wrong at all, but I tried a swarm of 4 (the two named pilots +2 cartel) with 3 Mangler Cannons and 1 HLC on A'shera on VASSAL using the spoiled dial. It was extremely successful against 2 bwings with HCL+Jan Ors. I didn't lose a single one. Serrisu really upped the survivability of them and the amount of red dice that I was throwing out every turn was phenomenal. Also, Serrisu near A'shera with Stealth Device is amazing.

I know it is anecdotal evidence and that you use statistics to draw your conclusions, but I am positive that I would not have been able to do the same thing with 4 Advanceds.

Let's take the math out of it. Compare it to an Avenger Squadron Interceptor. Same cost, same attack (minus crit conversion), same agility, same hitpoints, but lower PS and worse dial. Most players would say that the Avenger isn't worth its cost, and the interceptor has more going for it than the Scyk. It's a lot of points for low durability and moderate damage.

Just to go back to this, there are a few things that don't jive. For one, the Scyk has a Targeting Computer, which is a 2 pt upgrade. So, we know that value. While many think it will never be used, I think it will be used. Maybe not excessive, but it will be used, especially by a flanker. Next, the Shield is not the same as a hull point. This is especially true with so many ways to give Crits out now. Lastly, you shouldn't even be considering the two...because S&V can't even take the Interceptor! You really need to look at it when compared to what else it is you can take in the list.

Overall, I can see a 3 dice crit cannon that is cheaper be a better value than a more expensive HLC when you have large ships all over the meta.

But if you're thinking about a list and your question is "what kind of cannon should I put on my Scyk?", then a control option or a Heavy Laser Cannon will typically be more valuable than a Mangler.

Not saying I don't think it has its place. But, for that same 20 points, you can take NDru with Lone Wolf and Intertial Dampeners. More durable, much higher PS, same 3 die primary, 4 at R1, with a reroll on offense and defense. And with the ID, you can do your best to keep your distance. I like the cheap Scyk, I like it with HLC, MAYBE even with a Proton Rockets. And I can get behind Serissu's defense buff as well. But, I certainly think there are better choices for the cost than the Cartel Spacer with Manger. I chose the Avenger in the other post because they are the most statistically and cost(ically?) similar.

I am actually more excited about it than I feel most players are. Serissu will be a mainstay supporter when I play Double Aggressors. the Mangler has its place, too, I'm just not sure its on the Scyk.

N'Dru has drawbacks, though: the Headhunter dial with no barrel roll is a lot less flexible than the Scyk dial, and the "nobody nearby" requirement is tougher in practice than it looks on paper.

I think we mostly agree, though. There are lots of fun things to do with Scyks (19 points for an Ion Cannon? Yes, please), and a number of fun things to do with Mangler Cannons, but the intersection of those two sets is pretty small.

Fair point on the range requirement. I've only been able to get Lone Wolf to work thru a whole match when its on a Decimator with a Phantom escort. But, hopefully, the Inertial Dampeners upgrade will assist in keeping the space open during a crucial turn. Give it to your other ships, too!

The dial is halfway between a Tie Interceptor and a Z-95 dial. Which is actually a good description of the Scyk Halfway between Tie Interceptor and Z-95 Headhunter.Cost more than a Headhunter but not as much as a Interceptor. Faster than a Headhunter but not as maneuverable as an interceptor. Less hit points than a Headhunter but not as vulnerable as an Interceptor. More Firepower than a Headhunter but not as much as an Interceptor.

The MA-3 Scyk is stuck between the Z-95 Headhunter and the Tie Interceptor.

The M3-A with the Mangler is an extremely poor value. Negating the Mangler's hit to crit ability, the M3-A + Mangler is only slightly more efficient than the pre-buff TIE Advanced.

I don't get this. Maybe it's due to some formula that you use, but a Cartel Spacer w/ Mangler Cannon for 20 pts isn't bad to me.

Let's take the math out of it. Compare it to an Avenger Squadron Interceptor. Same cost, same attack (minus crit conversion), same agility, same hitpoints, but lower PS and worse dial. Most players would say that the Avenger isn't worth its cost, and the interceptor has more going for it than the Scyk. It's a lot of points for low durability and moderate damage.

Negating the crit conversion, the interceptor actually does more damage, as its range 1 attack more than offsets the M3-A's range 3 advantage.

Just to go back to this, there are a few things that don't jive. For one, the Scyk has a Targeting Computer, which is a 2 pt upgrade. So, we know that value.

Don't confuse cost and value. The printed cost is almost always WAY higher than the actual value that it provides for the vast majority of ships.

I don't want to tell you that you are wrong at all, but I tried a swarm of 4 (the two named pilots +2 cartel) with 3 Mangler Cannons and 1 HLC on A'shera on VASSAL using the spoiled dial. It was extremely successful against 2 bwings with HCL+Jan Ors. I didn't lose a single one. Serrisu really upped the survivability of them and the amount of red dice that I was throwing out every turn was phenomenal. Also, Serrisu near A'shera with Stealth Device is amazing.

I know it is anecdotal evidence and that you use statistics to draw your conclusions, but I am positive that I would not have been able to do the same thing with 4 Advanceds.

I have tried to build some M3-A lists and have generally come up with something similar, you need to use Serrisu to make target priority for your opponent difficult. As the numbers in my MathWing thread show, you basically need Serrisu's buff to break even with HLC on an M3-A. It makes Serrisu a points dump for that one ship, but that's the price you pay for admission.

...Don't confuse cost and value. The printed cost is almost always WAY higher than the actual value that it provides for the vast majority of ships.

...

...I have tried to build some M3-A lists and have generally come up with something similar, you need to use Serrisu to make target priority for your opponent difficult. As the numbers in my MathWing thread show, you basically need Serrisu's buff to break even with HLC on an M3-A. It makes Serrisu a points dump for that one ship, but that's the price you pay for admission.

Would describing it halfway between a Z-95 Headhunter and a Tie Interceptor fit for its jousting values? To me it seems stuck in limbo between those two ships on all categories (point cost, firepower, survivability, maneuvering.)

I mentioned that it's in another faction in my next post. You can see the comments above. I'm really thinking that the Scyk and the Mangler with both find their places, but that place won't often be together.

Also, just my opinions. Don't want to make anyone angry, just sharing some thoughts. I could very well be wrong and if so, whatevs.

Not trying to get/look angry. Just like debating.

I will admit that part of why I am thinking the Mangler will work better is the movement of the Scyk. It's not something that sits off at far range and plinks away with HLC. It's dial won't let it go 1 forward. So, it has to move a bit. The Mangler works at any range. Also, the Scyk only has 2 attack, so firing the Mangler at Range 1 is still the best option. With the Mangler being cheaper, I hate to put something expensive on a ship that can be one-shotted with some bad dice rolls.

Negating the crit conversion, the interceptor actually does more damage, as its range 1 attack more than offsets the M3-A's range 3 advantage.

Just to go back to this, there are a few things that don't jive. For one, the Scyk has a Targeting Computer, which is a 2 pt upgrade. So, we know that value.

Don't confuse cost and value. The printed cost is almost always WAY higher than the actual value that it provides for the vast majority of ships.

...

I have tried to build some M3-A lists and have generally come up with something similar, you need to use Serrisu to make target priority for your opponent difficult. As the numbers in my MathWing thread show, you basically need Serrisu's buff to break even with HLC on an M3-A. It makes Serrisu a points dump for that one ship, but that's the price you pay for admission.

It's true that the Interceptor has advantage at Range 1, but also that crit could be more powerful. It's all situational.

Yes, the printed cost is always more and not all upgrades are worth it. Still, I think that there will be times when the TL will be worth it. Maybe the ship is in no one's arch. Or maybe it spends a turn zipping behind some people and doesn't have a shot. It could take the TL. Won't happen all the time, but it has the option to.

I have to admit that Serrisu doesn't do it for me, though the PS 8 is nice. I just think the benefit isn't there. I'm more fascinated by Laetin A'shera. I'm thinking the role of flanker and sniper. I could even see putting an HLC on her. Also throw on a Stealth Device. I worry using an HLC would make her too much of a target, though. I'll have to try it out.

Anyways, I have to admit that the Scyk and the Mangler Cannon are the two things that got me excited about S&V.

I think it's worth pointing out that FFG never actually posted the "fake" dial in any official article, it was uploaded to their website but they purposefully left it out of any articles, probably because they realized it wasn't the actual dial that was being packaged with the ship.

There is no way that a Scyk will ge getting consecutive range 3 shots. The biggest weakness of its dial when considering the HLC is the lack of a 1 straight.

It's an Interceptor. It's not going to use the HLC every single turn in a dogfight.

It's going to hit hard, then run away, then come back, and repeat.

I think it's worth pointing out that FFG never actually posted the "fake" dial in any official article, it was uploaded to their website but they purposefully left it out of any articles, probably because they realized it wasn't the actual dial that was being packaged with the ship.

True, however it was worth noting that they did search for a leaker for one of their LCG. The trace was successful and gave the runner 1 tag.