BS. You wanna prove your super hero space adventurer status and not take advantage of a rule loophole? You shoot the Nemesis and use the extra hits on the chandelier. One is cinematic and narrative and the other is a BS excuse, taking advantage of a rule loophole.

It is not a rule loop hole. And you still have not explained how shooting the chandelier is any different than shooting the minion who does not have adversary. The Talent specifically says you can hit another target with 2 advantage. To run it the way you do makes the talent a very expensive and useless talent. Why spend 75xp to get a talent that you can accomplish with 800 credits? What good is the talent if you run it the way you do? Why would I buy it?

Because you can throw grenades at two different targets? Because you could throw two bolas at two targets?

I love how the people that are whining about how I think it's BS to be shooting an inanimate object , or any easier target, just to bypass ranks of Adversary on a Nemesis are also the same crowd that want the Talent to work like autofire, apparently just minus the inconvenient element of autofire that requires the most difficult target to be targeted.

Sounds like nothing but a bunch of wanting cake and being able to eat to imo.

Because you can throw grenades at two different targets? Because you could throw two bolas at two targets?

I love how the people that are whining about how I think it's BS to be shooting an inanimate object , or any easier target, just to bypass ranks of Adversary on a Nemesis are also the same crowd that want the Talent to work like autofire, apparently just minus the inconvenient element of autofire that requires the most difficult target to be targeted.

Sounds like nothing but a bunch of wanting cake and being able to eat to imo.

Again what is the fricking point to spending 75 credits on a talent if it is no better than autofire? You still have not explained how this is a good value. If you spend that much XP on an ability it ought to do something better than autofire which I can just pick up for credits. Any idiot can pick up a gun with autofire.

So being able to lob 2 thermal detonators at two separate targets in one action has no value? Two bolas at two targets has no value?

A lack of creativity and imagination using the Talent, in addition to using it in way that doesn't take advantage of an obvious loophole, isn't the Talent's responsibility.

So being able to lob 2 thermal detonators at two separate targets in one action has no value? Two bolas at two targets has no value?

A lack of creativity and imagination using the Talent, in addition to using it in way that doesn't take advantage of an obvious loophole, isn't the Talent's responsibility.

Sure it has value. It is not 75 XP worth of value.

What you are calling a loophole near as I can tell is what gives the talent its value. As running it the way you are wanting to makes the talent not worth the amount of XP required to get it. And we are talking about a talent meant to be used with 2 blaster pistols. And you are calling for using it with grenades to justify the expense. This is the capstone talent for a gunslinger. And you are saying well it is good with grenades...as if that makes the way you are treating it ok. The capstone talent for the gunslinger ought to be better than autofire. And as it is written it is better than autofire. The way you want to run it makes it a complete waste of XP. It is written as an ability that allows you to hit 2 targets using the difficulty of hitting your first target as the difficulty.

Because you can throw grenades at two different targets? Because you could throw two bolas at two targets?

I love how the people that are whining about how I think it's BS to be shooting an inanimate object , or any easier target, just to bypass ranks of Adversary on a Nemesis are also the same crowd that want the Talent to work like autofire, apparently just minus the inconvenient element of autofire that requires the most difficult target to be targeted.

Sounds like nothing but a bunch of wanting cake and being able to eat to imo.

Please don't make assumptions that you obviously don't know. I am not wanting any cake. I am also a GM and not looking at it for what I want. I do believe for a 25 xp talent that is the bottom of a tree the talent either needs to bypass adversary as many believe the talent is intended to do or it is to allow two weapons to do autofire. As a GM I and as a reader of the talent I don't believe the Devs meant it as both. I also hope it isn't both. However if it is neither it is a useless talent and a cake with no icing or ice cream is dry and gonna be useless.

I get your point if it's both. However if it's neither then you want a player to get a useless talent and you want a game that is not following rules just to dumb it down cause of fear it's over powered. Autofire, double down, and many combos can be overpowered. This is not if only one of the two interpretations

I see nothing about the talent that makes it like autofire.

"After making a successful combined check with 2 range (light) weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target within range of the weapon."

Autofire requires you to name all the targets you want to hit and use the difficulty of the hardest target.

This requires you to make a 2 weapon attack vs a target. If you are successful you can spend 2 advantage to hit any target you want.

I don't either, but many thru the thread thought

so. I think the hitting an easier target and then 2nd shot hitting a more difficult target is the way.

I don't either, but many thru the thread thought

so. I think the hitting an easier target and then 2nd shot hitting a more difficult target is the way.

That ability is what would give the talent value. And we are talking blaster pistols here. It is not like we are talking tons of damage. After soak it is going to be how much damage?

Hyperbole. To say this Talent doesn't have value is to simply ignore the examples I gave with grenades and bolas. A hard look at the kinds of options that could be put in play using Range(L) and this Talent shows it has far more utility and use than simply autofire or using it to exploit a loophole.

In addition to constantly beat the drum that somehow because this Talent costs 25 xp that somehow this provides some mystical 'everything goes' status is a non argument. There are trees that have Grit as a 25 xp Talent. Many 'good' 25 xp Talents have a once per session limit or flip a DP limit, this one has neither. That coupled with the variety of situations it could be employed creatively this Talent provides plenty of value besides trying to exploit avoiding ranks of Adversary.

I just feel like the wonderful part of this system is destroyed with thinking that a shooting a chandelier to hit a adversary with a very expensive talent is not cinematic and not what this system is at its core. They shoot a chandelier that is difficulty one or two and one or two setbacks. Would then as a gm spend destiny to upgrade the difficulty if happening regularly and if they get a despair the glass shatters and hits everyone. Then the sith Lord starts to force lighting the gunslinger since he sees the gunslinger in his Darkside warped sense of honor sees the gunslinger has no honor

Is there a rules hierarchy?

Personally, I'd go with core rules first, quality rules second, talent rules third. Wanna two-weapon, Auto-Fire, Spitfire that target? Build the dice pool in that order.

Credit/Xp cost have nothing to do with it.

Edit: Removed snarky opinion.

I just feel like the wonderful part of this system is destroyed with thinking that a shooting a chandelier to hit a adversary with a very expensive talent is not cinematic and not what this system is at its core. They shoot a chandelier that is difficulty one or two and one or two setbacks. Would then as a gm spend destiny to upgrade the difficulty if happening regularly and if they get a despair the glass shatters and hits everyone. Then the sith Lord starts to force lighting the gunslinger since he sees the gunslinger in his Darkside warped sense of honor sees the gunslinger has no honor

It's not cinematic, it's using cinematic as an excuse to bypass Adversary. You can shoot the Nemesis and then hit the chandelier with the extra hits, explain the difference to me other than one requires you to target the actual target and one is a peter cheater method of trying to avoid the Adversary ranks?

Honestly I also wouldn't allow it becuase Adversary says "any" combat check targeting an NPC. It doesn't say the primary target, it doesn't say except not for autofire, it doesn't say if they're the second target in a two weapon combat check, there aren't any conditions, "any" combat check is pretty unambiguous in my mind that Adversary isn't something you avoid.

So being able to lob 2 thermal detonators at two separate targets in one action has no value? Two bolas at two targets has no value?

A lack of creativity and imagination using the Talent, in addition to using it in way that doesn't take advantage of an obvious loophole, isn't the Talent's responsibility.

If it's a loophole the whole concept of the system has been lost on you. Plus a player who doesn't want grenades and just wants two light blaster pistols and spends the xp to do it the way the talent was obviously intended to do is forced to grab grenades or forced to go another way instead of their concept is a very sad table to sit at.

I just feel like the wonderful part of this system is destroyed with thinking that a shooting a chandelier to hit a adversary with a very expensive talent is not cinematic and not what this system is at its core. They shoot a chandelier that is difficulty one or two and one or two setbacks. Would then as a gm spend destiny to upgrade the difficulty if happening regularly and if they get a despair the glass shatters and hits everyone. Then the sith Lord starts to force lighting the gunslinger since he sees the gunslinger in his Darkside warped sense of honor sees the gunslinger has no honor

I think shooting a chandelier to cause some cool effect, like dropping it on the heads of a minion group, or something like that, to create a cinematic scene, and then snap off a shot at something else is fun and in the spirit of this game.

I think shooting a chandelier to exploit a circumstance that lets you hit another target regardless of its defenses is lame.

Besides, in your example of 1 or 2 difficulty with 1 or 2 setback, why not just shoot the nemesis at that point? That's short or medium range, ranged defense 1 or 2. The only difference is some of those difficulty dice will be challenge dice, with maybe another difficulty die. In my mind, wasting your first hit on something else to have one less die or two difficulty dice instead of challenge dice, is less effective than just shooting the target in the first place.

Changed my (P)s and ®s to actual words to avoid the silly ®.

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

There are two debates all over this thread. A player two weapon fighting with spitfire hits any target in ranged with second hit. Simple and no rules hierarchy needed. Simple. And cinematic is not the bs excuse or loophole. One of my players was right.these forums have gone way downhill. People attacking others. State your opinion with out calling others ideas or vision of game bs. Probably listen to someone who doesn't sound so...well nevermind not going there

So being able to lob 2 thermal detonators at two separate targets in one action has no value? Two bolas at two targets has no value?

A lack of creativity and imagination using the Talent, in addition to using it in way that doesn't take advantage of an obvious loophole, isn't the Talent's responsibility.

If it's a loophole the whole concept of the system has been lost on you. Plus a player who doesn't want grenades and just wants two light blaster pistols and spends the xp to do it the way the talent was obviously intended to do is forced to grab grenades or forced to go another way instead of their concept is a very sad table to sit at.

There are two debates all over this thread. A player two weapon fighting with spitfire hits any target in ranged with second hit. Simple and no rules hierarchy needed. Simple. And cinematic is not the bs excuse or loophole. One of my players was right.these forums have gone way downhill. People attacking others. State your opinion with out calling others ideas or vision of game bs. Probably listen to someone who doesn't sound so...well nevermind not going there

Telling someone the concept of the system has been lost of them, and lecturing about criticizing people? Kind of makes you a hypocrite don't you think?

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

Ooh ohh! There's the Colonist signature abilty! Oh wait, destiny points, and usage limits.

Or the Commander signature ability! Oh, doh, again with the destiny points and usage limits, plus this one has a strain cost.

Umm . . . Oh! How about Precise Aim! Oh, nope, strain and maneuver costs.

Shoot . . . Here's one! Sort of*. True Aim. Enough ranks give you enough dice to not care about Adversary or ranged defense.

*I don't think this counts exactly, but it gets the job done.

Edit: And then I saw the single requirement. Never mind, there aren't other any talents or abilities or force powers in this game that do that, except the Blast quality.

Perhaps the talent is intended to take the place of credits in a cash-starved game?

I'm just flailing blindly now, aren't I?

Perhaps the talent is intended to take the place of credits in a cash-starved game?

I'm just flailing blindly now, aren't I?

Maybe. Maybe not. While I don't believe so for this system, I do know some other game systems did things like this. One example is D&D 3.5, where the Improved Critical Feat and the Keen Weapon Quality did the same thing, but couldn't stack. So if you had feats to spare, you took one, money to spare, the other.

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

Master Grenadier. Decrease the ADV needed to activate the blast quality. So not it take 1 or 2 ADV to get blast...No Strain no DP cost no limitation on usage. Improved Correlian send off. A hard piloting check to cause 2 ships to have a hard collision. No DP or Strain or once per session limitation...So not so unusual. Also don't forget the player will likely be using guns blazing to lower the difficulty on the combined check. Which by the way includes an increase in difficulty. And the weapon of choice is a fricking pistol. We are not talking blaster rifles or repeating blasters or anything. We are talking blaster pistols. Which likely will have a lot of it soaked. Since they top out at around 8 damage.

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

Ooh ohh! There's the Colonist signature abilty! Oh wait, destiny points, and usage limits.

Or the Commander signature ability! Oh, doh, again with the destiny points and usage limits, plus this one has a strain cost.

Umm . . . Oh! How about Precise Aim! Oh, nope, strain and maneuver costs.

Shoot . . . Here's one! Sort of*. True Aim. Enough ranks give you enough dice to not care about Adversary or ranged defense.

*I don't think this counts exactly, but it gets the job done.

Edit: And then I saw the single requirement. Never mind, there aren't other any talents or abilities or force powers in this game that do that, except the Blast quality.

Signature abilities all cost DP and are beyond the 5th tier so not exactly a fair comparison. Master Grenadier is a more apt comparison and it does not require a DP or Strain or limited use. Triggering blast for cheap is pretty nice.

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

Master Grenadier. Decrease the ADV needed to activate the blast quality. So not it take 1 or 2 ADV to get blast...No Strain no DP cost no limitation on usage. Improved Correlian send off. A hard piloting check to cause 2 ships to have a hard collision. No DP or Strain or once per session limitation...So not so unusual. Also don't forget the player will likely be using guns blazing to lower the difficulty on the combined check. Which by the way includes an increase in difficulty. And the weapon of choice is a fricking pistol. We are not talking blaster rifles or repeating blasters or anything. We are talking blaster pistols. Which likely will have a lot of it soaked. Since they top out at around 8 damage.

Those examples aren't even close in comparison to what you all are proposing on Spitfire. Your interpretation in use of Spitfire means removal of all Setback dice from a check for cover and Defense, as well as, 3 Difficulty downgrades, for no # of use or resource cost at all.

In addition someone point out any other single Talent, for absolutely no Strain, no DP cost, no Once per session restriction, that allows you to completely ignore any and all Setbacks from Defense and or cover, as well as, downgrade 3 ranks of Adversary in one fell swoop. Gimmee a break, tell me that isn't an absurdly OP interpretation of this.

Master Grenadier. Decrease the ADV needed to activate the blast quality. So not it take 1 or 2 ADV to get blast...No Strain no DP cost no limitation on usage. Improved Correlian send off. A hard piloting check to cause 2 ships to have a hard collision. No DP or Strain or once per session limitation...So not so unusual. Also don't forget the player will likely be using guns blazing to lower the difficulty on the combined check. Which by the way includes an increase in difficulty. And the weapon of choice is a fricking pistol. We are not talking blaster rifles or repeating blasters or anything. We are talking blaster pistols. Which likely will have a lot of it soaked. Since they top out at around 8 damage.

Those examples aren't even close in comparison to what you all are proposing on Spitfire. Your interpretation in use of Spitfire means removal of all Setback dice from a check for cover and Defense, as well as, 3 Difficulty downgrades, for no # of use or resource cost at all.

Yeah... for pistol damage that a large chunk will likely be soaked. Are you telling me you are basing your entire game around having those setbacks and adversary? Not exactly game breaking. More than likely they will be getting one hit per round. Certainly no worse than autofire is and everyone calls that one game breaking.

You know blast ignores setback and cover and adversary too right? Throw a grenade at the minion next to the nemesis and you can use blast to ignore those setback and adversary as well. So yeah the Grenadier can do the same thing.