I greatly prefer debris fields. Nothing I hate more than landing on a asteroid and not being able to shoot that round. Less chance of damage is a big plus too. Stress isn't a biggie to me.

Nah ... the game should start with six asteroids, then every time a ship gets destroyed a debris field is placed where it died.

And debris tokens are still relegated for casual play only. Disappointing. Would have been nice to have that added level of planning.

And they always will until Imps have ships that profit from Stress. (and beside Soontir there is none).

That people actually ask for them, shows me that there also (beside the fun part) might be an intention to use this in their advantage (which would favor more or less just one faction at the moment) and FFG sees that too...

Im pretty confident we will not see a legal use of Debris in tournaments until much much later...

That is one reason, but I think the big one is that they are not provided in the Core Set, and that would mean that people wishing to play in tournaments have to buy a specific expension beyond the core set, whether they intend to use the Outrider and Decimator or not, which seems to be against the ethos.

How is this any different than having to buy a certain expansion for certain cards?

It's not REQUIRED.

You choose what list you want to play, and it is entirely your decision.

You then look at what cards you need to field that list and can choose to go and buy them, or change lists.

By saying "You need Debris Fields to play tournaments" they are taking away that choice and requiring you to buy certain expansions.

No, but you are forced to play against opponents who have cards that you do not.

If both players got to choose three obstacles out of those they own, (just like when building a list out of your ships and cards) at the beginning of a match, it would be perfectly fine

But again, thats your CHOICE.

You are choosing not to own everything, knowing that means you will play against people who have things you do not. It doesn't stop you playing, it just potentially puts you at a disadvantage of your choosing.

By saying "If you don't have it you can't play" is no longer a choice that a player can make as to whether to buy a particular expansion.

Also: The debris fields aren't balanced for tournament play. They were created for particular scenarios. They provide extra benefit to some ships and penalise some ships and that has not been factored into the cost of those ships. Look at Farlander for example, "I can land on a field for a free stress AND still get to shoot? Cool!". He becomes more powerful with debris fields, as does Dash (pilot), while interceptors for example are at a disadvantage.

Also: The debris fields aren't balanced for tournament play.

I'm curious: how do you know this?

By saying "You need Debris Fields to play tournaments" they are taking away that choice and requiring you to buy certain expansions.

By saying "If you don't have it you can't play" is no longer a choice that a player can make as to whether to buy a particular expansion.

Which is why NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT. In all the dozens of threads where this comes up no one suggests that they would be mandatory to have.

Theoretical Tournament Rules

Each player is required to bring 3 obstacles to the match. these can be any mix of Asteroids or Debris Fields. Before set up, both players put their 3 obstacles next to the play area and then, beginning with the player with initiative, they take turns selecting 1 obstacle and placing it in the play area.

That is the blatantly obvious, ridiculously easy, basic common sense way Debris Fields would be added to the tournament rules. They may or may not eventually make them usable in tournaments, but no one is going to be required to have debris fields, no one has ever suggested that they would, so stop using that as an excuse.

I greatly prefer debris fields. Nothing I hate more than landing on a asteroid and not being able to shoot that round. Less chance of damage is a big plus too. Stress isn't a biggie to me.

When I'm playing against a fat falcon, I greatly prefer asteroids.

I just prefer not to worry about them until FFGs makes an official ruling on them. Either way it will be the final word. It won't matter to me cause I have a set of each. I haven't even used the debris fields in a game yet lol. If I have to start dealing with them in tournament play then I'll just avoid them just like asteroids.

Speculating on whether they will break tournament play or if they'll make kittens cry does nothing.

Do I think we'll see them sure sometime down the road they'll be added, probably as an optional obstacle to an asteroid upon setup. So we'll probably see a table with 6 "obstacles" on it in some combination of asteroids and debris.

Wait to do the strong debating on them once a ruling has been handed down from FFG that we, as player, will have to follow.

By saying "You need Debris Fields to play tournaments" they are taking away that choice and requiring you to buy certain expansions.

By saying "If you don't have it you can't play" is no longer a choice that a player can make as to whether to buy a particular expansion.

Which is why NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT. In all the dozens of threads where this comes up no one suggests that they would be mandatory to have.

Theoretical Tournament Rules

Each player is required to bring 3 obstacles to the match. these can be any mix of Asteroids or Debris Fields. Before set up, both players put their 3 obstacles next to the play area and then, beginning with the player with initiative, they take turns selecting 1 obstacle and placing it in the play area.

That is the blatantly obvious, ridiculously easy, basic common sense way Debris Fields would be added to the tournament rules. They may or may not eventually make them usable in tournaments, but no one is going to be required to have debris fields, no one has ever suggested that they would, so stop using that as an excuse.

So in your rules I could bring 3 big rocks since I bought 3 core sets?

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

I greatly prefer debris fields. Nothing I hate more than landing on a asteroid and not being able to shoot that round. Less chance of damage is a big plus too. Stress isn't a biggie to me.

Nah ... the game should start with six asteroids, then every time a ship gets destroyed a debris field is placed where it died.

We've done this in a team epic game (Dash was banned)... it was disgusting and at the same time amazingly cool. You really need to have them disperse somehow before it gets ridiculous.

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

Players already play games with different rules because different squads are different. I would also say its closer to some one playing Rebels and another playing Empire than removing cards from your damage deck.

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

Let's say I bought the Imperial Raider and had access to my precious TIE Advanced X1 title that no one else had access to because they didn't buy it. The TIE X1 title is meant to fix the inadequacies of the TIE Advanced, meaning it is an essential auto-include on the ship. It bends the normal game rules in that my Advanced now can take System Upgrades, something they never had access to in the first place, for a reduced cost. My opponents are all flying TIE Advanced in a tournament but without the X1 title, whereas I'm flying four TIE Advanced with X1 and ATC.

I have the new TIE Advanced X1 title (debris) that bends the normal game rules because I paid money and they didn't. It's entirely optional of course, because they should be able to stick with their normal TIE Advanced (asteroids) in a tournament just like I should be able to use my new stuff in the same tournament.

Players already play games with different rules because different squads are different. I would also say its closer to some one playing Rebels and another playing Empire than removing cards from your damage deck.

Exactly. Choice of obstacles would just be another part of list building.

And debris tokens are still relegated for casual play only. Disappointing. Would have been nice to have that added level of planning.

And they always will until Imps have ships that profit from Stress. (and beside Soontir there is none).

That people actually ask for them, shows me that there also (beside the fun part) might be an intention to use this in their advantage (which would favor more or less just one faction at the moment) and FFG sees that too...

Im pretty confident we will not see a legal use of Debris in tournaments until much much later...

That is one reason, but I think the big one is that they are not provided in the Core Set, and that would mean that people wishing to play in tournaments have to buy a specific expension beyond the core set, whether they intend to use the Outrider and Decimator or not, which seems to be against the ethos.

I can still understand why Debris Tokens are still banned. However I am frustrated with the same 6 terrain tokens in each game. I really want a little variety with the competitive setup.

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

Let's say I bought the Imperial Raider and had access to my precious TIE Advanced X1 title that no one else had access to because they didn't buy it. The TIE X1 title is meant to fix the inadequacies of the TIE Advanced, meaning it is an essential auto-include on the ship. It bends the normal game rules in that my Advanced now can take System Upgrades, something they never had access to in the first place, for a reduced cost. My opponents are all flying TIE Advanced in a tournament but without the X1 title, whereas I'm flying four TIE Advanced with X1 and ATC.

I have the new TIE Advanced X1 title (debris) that bends the normal game rules because I paid money and they didn't. It's entirely optional of course, because they should be able to stick with their normal TIE Advanced (asteroids) in a tournament just like I should be able to use my new stuff in the same tournament.

But you want to play the new title, so you need to buy it. Perfectly fine. But as of now, the player with initiative has to provide the obstacles. (Page 2 tournament rules, step 5 in Squad Deployment Procedure. Since I cant ensure that I will never have initiative, I need to buy the debris cloud tokens, whether I want to play with them or not. If I dont want to field a Tie Advanced with the new title, I dont needs to buy the ship, but I would have to buy the debris cloud tokens.

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

Let's say I bought the Imperial Raider and had access to my precious TIE Advanced X1 title that no one else had access to because they didn't buy it. The TIE X1 title is meant to fix the inadequacies of the TIE Advanced, meaning it is an essential auto-include on the ship. It bends the normal game rules in that my Advanced now can take System Upgrades, something they never had access to in the first place, for a reduced cost. My opponents are all flying TIE Advanced in a tournament but without the X1 title, whereas I'm flying four TIE Advanced with X1 and ATC.

I have the new TIE Advanced X1 title (debris) that bends the normal game rules because I paid money and they didn't. It's entirely optional of course, because they should be able to stick with their normal TIE Advanced (asteroids) in a tournament just like I should be able to use my new stuff in the same tournament.

But you want to play the new title, so you need to buy it. Perfectly fine. But as of now, the player with initiative has to provide the obstacles. (Page 2 tournament rules, step 5 in Squad Deployment Procedure. Since I cant ensure that I will never have initiative, I need to buy the debris cloud tokens, whether I want to play with them or not. If I dont want to field a Tie Advanced with the new title, I dont needs to buy the ship, but I would have to buy the debris cloud tokens.

The rule about the player with initiative providing the obstacles could change too. I guess we'll wait and see, since that's all we can do.

So I think it's worth trying to clear a couple of things up.

(1) FFG is not going to write a rule that requires players to purchase anything other than the core set. I am 100% sure that it will always be legal to show up with just the regular six asteroids.

(2) That first point notwithstanding, any rule about debris clouds in tournaments has tournament players as its audience, who are very likely to have purchased at least one Wave 5 expansion (and therefore have access to at least one set of debris clouds).

(3) The ability to swap out some number of asteroids for debris clouds does not inherently provide an advantage. The ability to choose between asteroids and debris clouds in the context of a particular matchup provides a very small advantage, but that advantage isn't evenly tilted toward one side or the other. (My opponent may get the same very small boost from my use of debris clouds as I do.)

I want them to find an elegant solution that allows for even more choices beyond Asteroids and Debris Feilds. I can't imagine them stopping at 12 diffrent tokens.

I don't see what is so difficult about the player providing the obstacles, whether Asteroids or Debris Fields. Far, far easier than having each player bring 3, having to keep track of ownership and all that. It also doesn't force you to buy them, since if you don't want to use them, you don't have to. And if your opponent doesn't have their own tokens, well too bad, They are forced to use what you have. That's what they get for not owning what they want to use.

I don't see what is so difficult about the player providing the obstacles, whether Asteroids or Debris Fields. Far, far easier than having each player bring 3, having to keep track of ownership and all that. It also doesn't force you to buy them, since if you don't want to use them, you don't have to. And if your opponent doesn't have their own tokens, well too bad, They are forced to use what you have. That's what they get for not owning what they want to use.

It's about standardization and in a competitive format it is good because it takes more of the random probability in determining who wins the match. There is still probability in effect. (Last match I lost Corran to 6 attack dice when I had a focus token on turn 2. You can guess what I rolled.)

Now for standardization there is only 2 types of obstacles in the game. The asteroid set of 5 small and 1 big and the 4 satellite tokens which some may argue are so small they don't have an impact on the game.

I would still say make a pool of debris cloud tokens using the satellite tokens as fillers for the six debris cloud tokens in case there is not 6 debris cloud tokens between the two players. Still until FFG finds a better alternative we all have to play with the rocks.

I'm strongly in favor of allowing debris clouds in tournaments, and I reject the notion that they provide any inherent advantage to one faction over the other. The rules for using obstacles could simply be that the players place a total of six unique obstacles (asteroids or debris clouds) from their collections, but must bring a full set of asteroids. It just adds another layer of strategy (which is good) without requiring anyone to own debris clouds.

The fact is that if some players are playing in a tournament with debris fields and other players in that tournament can't, then you have different players playing by different sets of rules in the same tournament, which is not okay. In a tournament setting, everyone should be playing by the same set of rules. Even if having Debris in your game doesn't give you an advantage against your opponent, it does give you and advantage over everyone else in the tournament that didn't pay to have access to Debris Fields.

It's like if a player payed $5 extra and was allowed to take all of the Direct Hit cards out of both player's damage decks, but the rest of the players in the tournament outside of that match had to play with normal damage decks unless they also paid an extra $5. Taking all the Direct Hit cards out of both players damage decks theoretically means neither player gains an advantage, but it does in fact favor certain lists over others, and it also invalidates the concept that everyone in the tournament should be playing by the same rules and should not be able to change the core rules of the game by paying extra money.

Let's say I bought the Imperial Raider and had access to my precious TIE Advanced X1 title that no one else had access to because they didn't buy it. The TIE X1 title is meant to fix the inadequacies of the TIE Advanced, meaning it is an essential auto-include on the ship. It bends the normal game rules in that my Advanced now can take System Upgrades, something they never had access to in the first place, for a reduced cost. My opponents are all flying TIE Advanced in a tournament but without the X1 title, whereas I'm flying four TIE Advanced with X1 and ATC.

I have the new TIE Advanced X1 title (debris) that bends the normal game rules because I paid money and they didn't. It's entirely optional of course, because they should be able to stick with their normal TIE Advanced (asteroids) in a tournament just like I should be able to use my new stuff in the same tournament.

But you want to play the new title, so you need to buy it. Perfectly fine. But as of now, the player with initiative has to provide the obstacles. (Page 2 tournament rules, step 5 in Squad Deployment Procedure. Since I cant ensure that I will never have initiative, I need to buy the debris cloud tokens, whether I want to play with them or not. If I dont want to field a Tie Advanced with the new title, I dont needs to buy the ship, but I would have to buy the debris cloud tokens.

The rule about the player with initiative providing the obstacles could change too. I guess we'll wait and see, since that's all we can do.

Yes, it needs a change. And instead of simply waiting, we can also discuss how such a change might look like . Since noone in this thread proposed a change to this rule so far, I'm gonna take care of that:

Variant 1:

Before the tournament, each player has top decide which 6 obstacle tokens he wants to use throughout the tournament. When he has the initiative, this 6 tokens are used.

Variant 2:

Before the tournament, each player decides which 3 obstacles he wants to use. When it's his turn to plöayce an obstacle, he chooses one of his three.

Both variants have the problem, that a TO has to make sure, that noone changes his obstacles in between the rounds. And variant 2 has the problem, that the players have to keep track which of the rokens on the field are theirs, since there could be multiples. Both variants have the advantage, that more obstacles can easily be added. If someone does not want to use different obstacles than the asteroids, he does not need to buy any expansions. Any thoughts?

And debris tokens are still relegated for casual play only. Disappointing. Would have been nice to have that added level of planning.

Agree 100% with this. Plus I would have the person with the initiative choice from the following at the start of each game. As long as they bring the items, they can be used. Then the other person chose their items. I added huge ship, because they are blast and block off nearly one part the map when used.

-- 3 asteroids

-- 3 Debris

-- combination totally 3 of either asteroids and debris

-- 1 Huge Ship.

That would have been a great thing to add. Allowing for all kinds of strategy. But alas they went the easy route and just made updates.

I'm hoping for an expansion set of other tokens for setup too. Maybe Ion clouds, Moving Asteroids, etc. That would be sweet.

Shame really!

I have no intention of buying an Outrider or another Decimator. What do I do if I'm crushing a Z-Swarm and run out of debris fields? How do you orient the debris fields when a ship is destroyed? Indeed, WHO places it, the destroyer or destroyee? There are too many variables and too much complexity for it to be suitably noted as 'required.'

And this is coming from someone who enjoys what they add to the playing field.

EDIT: (posted too soon) But I'm happy there won't be many new rules to memorize.

I don't understand this at all. Debris are placed at the beginning of the game instead of asteroids or with asteroids. The special mission for the Vt-49 has a rule that you add them when you destroy something. But that's it.