If the Mangler Cannon's crit effect were worthwhile on its own, we'd see Winged Gundark used much more often, and we'd see Marksmanship popping up everywhere. But we don't see that, and in fact we have years of evidence at this point suggesting that crit-fishing is not a strategy that's well compensated in X-wing.

So here's the list of ships that benefit substantially from equipping a Mangler Cannon. I'll update it if someone comes up with an important addition:

• Heavy Scyk Interceptors (it's better than their native 2 Attack)
• YT-2400, with or without the Outrider title (it's better than their native 2 Attack)
• Ten Numb (who can use it to create action-independent unblockable damage without filling the EPT slot)
• Imperial Kath (who can use it to force a choice between taking stress and taking critical damage)
• IG-88B (who can use it as a pseudo-Gunner)
• Krassis Trelix (who can use it as a pseudo-Predator)

Before... yes. Now small two ship builds are becoming the norm. Crits can wreck a Decimator's day QUICKLY! With 8 hull points, Han isn't going to like all those crits either. Not to mention how it can help finish off a badly wounded ship. Bombers loose abilities and ordinance. HWKs loose abilities and their turrets. Direct hits finish of Ties.

Welcome to the new meta. Crits and stress are a thing now...

Of the current (and near-current) cannon platforms, here are my thoughts:

Firespray:

The good news is that you're negating an opponent's extra agility at range 3, and you're getting a free crit. However, it has all the disadvantages of an HLC not being able to fire out of the rear arc as well as the added problem of not improving the number of attack dice you're throwing at range 2-3 out of the front arc. Imperial Kath could be a sneaky play with her ability, but outside of her, I'd probably spend my points elsewhere.

B-Wing:

Again, you're adding a crit and denying the extra agility at range 3. However, I don't think that's worth 4 points compared with the other options. Again, we have a unique pilot (Ten Nunb) who can take advantage of this, but outside of him, I'd rather buy an Ion Cannon or even a Flechette cannon for control options at lower point costs and rely on my primary to do damage.

Defender:

Same basic advantages of the above two ships: free crit and denial of defender's agility bonus at range three. However, I think that Predator would be a better way of maximizing your firepower and allowing you to possibly save your focus for defense (something that the defender, in my experience often needs to do). The added bonus of being a secondary weapon and an extra crit are not worth the cost here. There's also not any special synergy with any of the unique pilots like there is with Kath and Ten Nunb. I wouldn't take it on a defender.

Lambda Shuttle:

Slightly more promising here. While you're not gaining anything in terms of attack dice (and you'll likely be ditching it when at range 1, just like all the above ships), it does have a nice built in advantage that is "always on", which makes it an attractive option for pilots that acquire stress- like Yorr. I could see Yorr taking great advantage of this, especially when surrounded by high PS squadmates who are stripping the opponent of shields. Yorr will possibly be often with stress in this type of build and being able to likely contribute at least one crit around to big based opponents is pretty great. The same would hold true (theoretically) for a "buff shuttle" that's handing out focus tokens via Fleet Officer since, again, the crit ability is "always on".

YT-2400

I think this is the ship (out of the current generation) that is really made for the Mangler Cannon. The fact that the 2400 has base attack 2 makes the Mangler an upgrade for this ship at all range bands. It also removes the infamous donuthole of life (an inevitable byproduct of the donut of death). As others have mentioned, I think the 39 point Fringer + Outrider + Mangler will be a nice budget turret ship. That is not to say that you're not giving up MAJOR amounts of offense with the HLC. I think for any Dash or Leebo who takes PTL/Engine, HLC will be the better buy, simply because between barrel rolling and boosting you have the ability to make sure that you have targets who are outside of the donuthole of life. But for a stripped down version (perhaps to run another turreted ship or a larger mini-swarm alongside it), a Mangler cannon could be a good buy.

Scum:

I don't want to say too much about the Scyk because I haven't put one of these on the table (and I'm not a vassal player). But I will say one thing: the fact that you're paying 2 points to upgrade to a heavy scyk makes the less-expensive cannons more attractive. Combined with the fact that the Scyk is only attack 2 base, you've got an attractive option. I still see myself using more control options like Flechette Cannons or Ions on them, but I will certainly give the Mangler a try.

IG-2000? Again, never having put it on the table, I'm not going to say much except that I'm guessing that if you're taking IG-88B, you'll at least want to consider the Mangler to stack with his ability.

Honestly, I'm planning on running it on Krassis some. Love the HLC on him when you have shots, but with the large base it's so easy to close to range 1 before you realize it. Plus, those extra 3 points can definitely be used elsewhere.

Honestly, I'm planning on running it on Krassis some. Love the HLC on him when you have shots, but with the large base it's so easy to close to range 1 before you realize it. Plus, those extra 3 points can definitely be used elsewhere.

At range 1, Krassis farts out four dice. Not sure if the 1 re-roll and hit --> crit is worth giving that up.

I can sort of see the Mangler on Krassis not because it's a superior choice by any means, but because that's 3 points of **** to bring along with a very expensive pilot. 3 points can be worth a lot of things.

Honestly, I'm planning on running it on Krassis some. Love the HLC on him when you have shots, but with the large base it's so easy to close to range 1 before you realize it. Plus, those extra 3 points can definitely be used elsewhere.

At range 1, Krassis farts out four dice. Not sure if the 1 re-roll and hit --> crit is worth giving that up.

I can sort of see the Mangler on Krassis not because it's a superior choice by any means, but because that's 3 points of **** to bring along with a very expensive pilot. 3 points can be worth a lot of things.

I thought Mangler is 4pts?

Another problem I have with the mango is that my 3-dice attack cannon-bearing ships generally pack ion cannons. Ions have a completely different functionality that is often game breaking (1 damage, sure, but phantoms can't de-cloak and stressed targets cannot de-stress and, depending on position, arced ion ships can't even fire back ), and I don't think forcing a crit through high agility does never as much "damage" to come close to justifying that 1 more point.

Honestly, I'm planning on running it on Krassis some. Love the HLC on him when you have shots, but with the large base it's so easy to close to range 1 before you realize it. Plus, those extra 3 points can definitely be used elsewhere.

At range 1, Krassis farts out four dice. Not sure if the 1 re-roll and hit --> crit is worth giving that up.

I can sort of see the Mangler on Krassis not because it's a superior choice by any means, but because that's 3 points of **** to bring along with a very expensive pilot. 3 points can be worth a lot of things.

I thought Mangler is 4pts?

3 points cheaper than HLC, so you save 3 points if you brought the mango

But is the Mangler Cannon canon?

Another problem I have with the mango is that my 3-dice attack cannon-bearing ships generally pack ion cannons. Ions have a completely different functionality that is often game breaking (1 damage, sure, but phantoms can't de-cloak and stressed targets cannot de-stress and, depending on position, arced ion ships can't even fire back ), and I don't think forcing a crit through high agility does never as much "damage" to come close to justifying that 1 more point.

Honestly, I'm planning on running it on Krassis some. Love the HLC on him when you have shots, but with the large base it's so easy to close to range 1 before you realize it. Plus, those extra 3 points can definitely be used elsewhere.

At range 1, Krassis farts out four dice. Not sure if the 1 re-roll and hit --> crit is worth giving that up.

I can sort of see the Mangler on Krassis not because it's a superior choice by any means, but because that's 3 points of **** to bring along with a very expensive pilot. 3 points can be worth a lot of things.

I thought Mangler is 4pts?

3 points cheaper than HLC, so you save 3 points if you brought the mango

Ah, thought you were saying it costs 3 points.

But is the Mangler Cannon canon?

the mangler cannon is mostly like more canon than many of us can-onderstand

I think it's not terrible on a Delta Squadron Defender. The Defender likes the PS1 for its generics anyway, and the Mangler likes PS1 also.

I think we would do well to observe how well Mangler Cannon/Ten Numb performs live - a "Performance Index," if you will.

In other words, we should watch the Mang-Numb P.I.

I think it's not terrible on a Delta Squadron Defender. The Defender likes the PS1 for its generics anyway, and the Mangler likes PS1 also.

the problem you run into is "why not take the ion instead for cheaper?"

the only matchup in which the magno would be advantageous is against large ships, and the defenders would lose their ability to abuse the 4k so well (and shut down small based adversaries)

By itself, I wouldn't put it on a Delta. If those Deltas are backed up by Jonus, however...

I think we would do well to observe how well Mangler Cannon/Ten Numb performs live - a "Performance Index," if you will.

In other words, we should watch the Mang-Numb P.I.

[slow clap]

I think we would do well to observe how well Mangler Cannon/Ten Numb performs live - a "Performance Index," if you will.

In other words, we should watch the Mang-Numb P.I.

[slow clap]

Randolph, I think you just named the fleet.

So, I got some who agree with me and some who disagree with me. I honestly didn't think it would get so heated. My point was the mangler was going to see more use than the HLC because it IMHO provides more bang per point for most builds. Now I wasn't saying the HLC is useless. More that it's just too pricy compared to the mangler in standard format, now that we are really trying to milk every point of value when we build. I think a majority of the current cannon carriers are better off for a myriad of reasons.

Heavy Sycks are fairly fragile, how many points do you REALLY want to sink in one knowing it's an easy score for your opponent? Imp krassis and scarlet can both take advantage of the mang to an extant equal to or greater than the HLC. B wings get expensive quick and it's really easy to sink half your points in one, anywhere you can save without tremendous losses in effectiveness help. 2400's can lose the doughnut.

I'm not saying the mangler is BETTER. I'm saying it is more EFFICENT in terms of point cost. Never underestimate crits.

I'm not saying the mangler is BETTER. I'm saying it is more EFFICENT in terms of point cost. Never underestimate crits.

That's what I'm trying to say, though: it's far less efficient than an HLC. With an HLC, you're paying a lot to increase your damage by a lot; with a Mangler Cannon, you're paying a moderate amount to maybe do something nasty to your opponent (if you hit, and if the crit turns out to be a consequential one). That makes sense, if you approach it from the frame of "which cannon should I use?"

But if you include the option of not using a cannon at all, then on a ship that already rolls 3 attack dice there's no comparison. As several people have said, it denies the bonus defense die at Range 3 and changes a hit to a crit. Setting the hit-to-crit effect aside for a moment, can we all agree that a 22-point Blue Squadron Pilot will do almost exactly the same damage over the course of an encounter as a 26-point Blue Squadron Pilot + Mangler Cannon? If so, that means the Mangler is actually reducing your efficiency.

That leaves us with the question of whether the hit-to-crit effect makes the Mangler Cannon worth including in the face of the efficiency hit, as far as total damage and durability are concerned. My argument is (and has been) that no, it doesn't: at the risk of repeating myself, if the hit-to-crit effect were worth anything close to 4 points, we would see Marksmanship used successfully at 3 points. But we don't see Marksmanship used in successful lists... at all.

So either there's going to be something about the Wave 6 metagame that will make critical hits drastically more valuable than they were in Wave 5, or Mangler Cannon is great on a short list of ships and pilots but will never earn back its cost on most of the game's cannon-carriers.

The Mangler is what it is. It was clear it was never intended to "replace" HLCs, but to offer a cheaper, consistent cannon for ships or pilots that needed the option.

-It gives the Outrider another option.

-It gives Scyks a reliable replacement to their primary guns

-It gives Imperial Kath an option outside of merc copilot to use her ability.

-It give Ten Numb a cannon to better use his ability.

It's not an attempt to replace anything and it's not designed to take over the meta, simply fill some holes in build options.

By itself, I wouldn't put it on a Delta. If those Deltas are backed up by Jonus, however...

Yeah, for my Deltas, I'm thinking a pair of them with ions and one with a flechette cannon.

That should...provide issues for large-base ships. After all, who needs a pilot skill of '9' when you know exactly where the enemy ship is going to end up, and precisely what actions it is going to take (none), for the rest of the game...

I don't think the Mangler is still close to the HLC, because of the sheer number of dice involved. It's simply easier to dodge a three-dice attack than it is to dodge a four-dice attack. The range-1 limitation on the HLC was never a problem because most of the ships that could carry it would roll four dice at range 1 anyway. If you roll the maximum number of hits with an HLC, that target is going to take damage unless they can roll at least three evade results, and/or an evade token. It takes a very good roll to dodge that.

The Mangler can be dodged with two evade results and one evade token. That's a much easier result to achieve.

Depends on what ship it is on. Sure 4 Dice no crit HLC is better than 3 Dice first hit a crit Mangler, especially on ships like B-wing or Tie Defender who already have 3 firepower. But the thing is comparing it on the Outrider title where the no range 1 HLC becomes an exploitable flaw.

Still some players still swear by the 4 dice HLC 360 turret and it is true firepower is the most valuable stat in the game. Still Put in that mangler cannon and what used to be Whisper's safety net will go away.

Autothrusters are here now and they are going to punish three attack turrets, your very likely to get a blank when rolling defence and have an evade token so that's two damage off the table right off, then you just need a natural evade or a focus and your ships done nothing that turn.

I've personally watched a mango equipped outrider shoot at turr for six straight turns and do zero damage, and not because my mate wasn't getting hits in two turns he got three crits in a couple more he got two crits but nothing got through SD+AT.

HLC gives one more chance to pierce that combo.

I feel like gunner is going to make a comeback in the new autothruster meta.

I feel like gunner is going to make a comeback in the new autothruster meta.

Yes but even then AT will still kick in and soontir will have the 2nd focus for that follow up attack, also remember gunner is primary attack only so zero help to an outrider.

I feel like gunner is going to make a comeback in the new autothruster meta.

Yes but even then AT will still kick in and soontir will have the 2nd focus for that follow up attack, also remember gunner is primary attack only so zero help to an outrider.

Wasn't talking specifically about the outrider. Just meant gunner in general would be a good idea.

I feel like gunner is going to make a comeback in the new autothruster meta.

Yes but even then AT will still kick in and soontir will have the 2nd focus for that follow up attack, also remember gunner is primary attack only so zero help to an outrider.

Wasn't talking specifically about the outrider. Just meant gunner in general would be a good idea.

I know i was just saying