I personally have had no trouble understanding an upgrade or pilot that has been made. That being said I also don't spend alot of time playing.

---

If anything having to filter all these upgrades and pilots and figure out what works best is actually harder on the people who play competitively.

I was just going to come on here and say this. Correct. When I played casual, I was was overwhelmed at times with the upgrades and all and let my friend ObiWonka pick everything out for me. Once I started playing competitively, however, I quickly caught up to understanding the upgrades and pilots (most of them, anyway). The hard part then was trying to figure out the best combos to use for tournament play.

Of course, I'm a Z swarm player, so I don't even use upgrades and pilots skills all that much, but I will build competitive and casual-competitive builds for fun, and to see how my Zs would be able to handle it.

I think its helpful when having casual players build to keep a list of common upgrades with certain ships to give them an idea of where to start at. Like typical loadouts with certain ships that make them play well. Beyond that they can build whatever they want to.

This game is barely taking it's first steps as far as many other tabletop miniature games go.

I mean we don't even have a third faction yet. WM and Hordes have 10+ with each faction having more models then the whole catalog of X-wing. Not to mention a ruleset that has likely more pages devoted to different types of Power Attacks then the entirety of X-wings rulebook. Maybe even if you include the FAQ.

I was thinking of Warmahordes while reading this thread.

For anyone curious, who doesn't play WM, here's a list of the special abilites, weapon qualities and stuff that interact in the game.

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Rules+Archive

X-Wing has a ways to go before it gets that complex.

Yes, of course it is! It would take a day to go through all the upgrades and add ons right now, plus they aren't even in the rulebook to be easily referenced!

Half the 'rules' are blindly scattered about as add on cards in various ship packs. A new player will drown under the weight of options.

Is X-Wing getting too complicated for casual play?

Yes, of course it is! It would take a day to go through all the upgrades and add ons right now, plus they aren't even in the rulebook to be easily referenced!

Half the 'rules' are blindly scattered about as add on cards in various ship packs. A new player will drown under the weight of options.

Thing is, those rules are basically unnecessary unless you own those expansions. Even playing vs them, it's really on your opponent to know their own list, not you, at least in a casual environment.

Is X-Wing getting too complicated for casual play?

Yes, of course it is! It would take a day to go through all the upgrades and add ons right now, plus they aren't even in the rulebook to be easily referenced!

Half the 'rules' are blindly scattered about as add on cards in various ship packs. A new player will drown under the weight of options.

I think this is completely false. As I've said I've only played casual and only starting Christmas just passed. I've only played against other new players. Between us we already own Decimators, Phantoms and aces as well as older wave stuff. By being sensible about how many things we throw in at once it's been easy. I don't consider myself a genius.. If I was I'd have a job that let me buy more toys.. But not one of us has had trouble learning the game for casual play.

My last game against some new guys I deliberately took a couple of none upgraded ships backed up by a tricked out Jake. They got to see a high(ish) skill upgraded pilot do his thing but I also made a point of showing the benifit of the low ps blockers. I also explained and demonstrated just how wonderful a thing PTL would have been on the interceptor list one of them brought.

If you were introducing someone to 40k or something else with a heap of additional rules, you wouldn't start of by playing a 5000pt game with one of every complicated unit you could think of. Why would you think WWing should be treated any different? There is no need to introduce every rule and combination at once.

here is a question: do you think that basic squad stands a chance against souped up phantoms, fat hans, fat dash, etc? i am genuinely asking the question. It seems like new or casual players are sort of discouraged from playing in tourneys because they are at a disadvantage, and not just the "new guy" disadvantage, but there is a definite list building learning curve. I am not whining, I am glad the game continues to grow, and I play in tourneys and do OK, but I am a little concerned about new players who might have an interest in competitive play. Just putting this out for opinions, not really ruling on it myself.

How many would be interested in a seperate tournament that was capped at wave 3? Good idea? Bad idea?

Fire away

I recently played against a list that was 1 Bandit Squad, and 4 Blue Squad. No upgrades at all. My Store Championship last table match against that list came down to my Falcon only having 2 hull left when I won. That ZBBBB list chewed through the other players that day. So yeah....a basic all PS2 no upgrade list can do well. It has even won some Store Championships as well. It all depends on how well you can and do fly it.

Also I was flying a Fat Han.....and that ZBBBB list still makes me shudder.

Also well said Vorp.

I'll get you next time!

On topic...with my own personal experience (being a long time 40k player since 2nd edition), I thought the rules for x-wing were very simplistic. I picked up the majority of rules in the first 20 minute game I ever played. Rockfist did a great job showing me the rules and I had no issues learning new rules as the game matured. The game is simple to learn and difficult to master.

I don't think the the game is too complicated. That is just my opinion though and I play lots of more complicated specialist games. Each person needs to decide on how vested they are in ANY game.

"Field what you like and fly it well."

I personally don't think so. The actual playing of the game is not complicated. You could buy two starters, one falcon + one firespray, and play every game with the same lists. What could make it complicated is the list building. And that is only complicated when you have all the options without any help.

But a new player either starts playing with a friend, who has all the minis. Said friend can help the new player by giving him advice on list building. For the first few games, you can even give them lists.

Or, a new player starts without a friend who has all the minis. But then, he will most likely buy only one starter set, and maybe one expansion of his favourite ship. So he will not have all the options available. And only if he likes the game, he will start adding more and more expansions, thus slowly adding more and more options.

here is a question: do you think that basic squad stands a chance against souped up phantoms, fat hans, fat dash, etc? i am genuinely asking the question. It seems like new or casual players are sort of discouraged from playing in tourneys because they are at a disadvantage, and not just the "new guy" disadvantage, but there is a definite list building learning curve. I am not whining, I am glad the game continues to grow, and I play in tourneys and do OK, but I am a little concerned about new players who might have an interest in competitive play. Just putting this out for opinions, not really ruling on it myself.

How many would be interested in a seperate tournament that was capped at wave 3? Good idea? Bad idea?

Fire away

With the current meta essentially turning this game into turret wing, I'd argue that there are less options competitively. It's also arguably easier to get into when someone can make a list out of 3 ships or less and a stray VI or predator they bought off someone. Considering that turrets also take almost zero skill to fly and turret vs. turret matchups are essentially just rolling dice and pointlessly moving your ships around for 60 minutes I don't understand how anyone could consider it too complex. You see less variation in upgrades and builds right now than you did before the phantom and turrets completely took over.

Stuff like swarm tactic chains and focus battery hwk and turr phennir and ion weapons and r4 d6 and flying a swarm are complex. Rolling predator + rear admiral and flying poorly and bumping and still being allowed to modify dice isn't.

No its not to complicated

The rules haven't changed, and are quite easy.

More pilots, ships and upgrades just means more options.

Card games like mtg, pokemom and others have years/decade worth of cards and it's not too complicated for new players, young and old.

More options doesn't equal more complicated.

I personally don't think so. The actual playing of the game is not complicated. You could buy two starters, one falcon + one firespray, and play every game with the same lists. What could make it complicated is the list building. And that is only complicated when you have all the options without any help.

But a new player either starts playing with a friend, who has all the minis. Said friend can help the new player by giving him advice on list building. For the first few games, you can even give them lists.

Or, a new player starts without a friend who has all the minis. But then, he will most likely buy only one starter set, and maybe one expansion of his favourite ship. So he will not have all the options available. And only if he likes the game, he will start adding more and more expansions, thus slowly adding more and more options.

I've never understood the sentiment 'It's not complicated if you don't use everything'. Sure I'll go along with that idea but I don't really think that is what I was trying to say. And you're absolutely correct when you say "that is only complicated when you have all the options" and that's what I most likely didn't say well

I'm not sure "complicated" is the word, "unwieldy" is more appropriate. For example, I don't have any problems understanding how the cards work, interact, or have problems stringing actions together. It certainly takes a lot longer to resolve a single turn, slows the game down terribly, and if that kind of minutiae isn't your thing, the game becomes pretty boring.

Clearly that type of intricacy is a big draw for a lot of miniature players, and I'm pretty sure this design path was kind of inevitable. I know exactly what you are talking about though and in some ways it does feel a little sad, but you can't stop progress.

But you know what, let's see if we can make ourselves feel better, and let us count our blessings!

1) We are so lucky that Jay Little was the original designer of this game. His ability to put together deep games with simple rules really is amazing. His vision is the primary reason why there's a sizable casual demographic for this game. Seriously, this is rare for wargames.

2) The game and expansions though often in short supply are still very reasonably priced. I may not play the newer expansions, but considering the quality of the models and artwork, I've still managed to buy every available expansion and not feel like I've thrown away money.

3) The "fiddliness" of the game didn't really take off until after the OT ships were released. As a huge OT fan if you play only OT waves you've got all the advantages of the simplicity in the early development of the game with all the iconic ships. Wave 3 is IMO the golden age of this game, and all the OT ships are there

4) FFG hasn't necessarily forgotten about us casuals! I believe those new playmats were made for us. They allow you to bring in something beautiful and iconic to the game without modifying any aspect of game play. You better believe I bought both.

5) The game is really easy to houserule out the bits you don't like. I always throw a shout out to Fab's Squadron generator, because it makes this so easy. I pick the waves I want, have it optimize on ships (means less cards) and BAM! that thing generates really fun lists like it's going out of style. I highly recommend you try it.

The days of this being a light, accessible romp through the Star Wars universe may be over, but there's still plenty for us to enjoy.

PS. if you truly enjoy the early design of this game, I highly recommend Blood Bowl Team Manager. Just another example of Jay Little taking something iconic and absolutely crushing it.

Keep flying casual

I think many have said it far better than I. Thank you. You may be right that complicated isn't quite the correct word. I do like the game so maybe intricate, a little overwhelming, or as you say unwieldy. Remember that the FAQ is almost as long as the rules.

OP: To a certain extent, perhaps. . I think it's unrealistic to come into ANY game at the later stages and expect to come out swinging like a seasoned veteran. Unlikely, not impossible.

That is what the forums are for; helping new players and veterans alike sort out builds, bounce ideas, and share theorycrafting with people of a like mind. For casual play, the game is only as complicated as you want to make it.

-Cal

Considering that turrets also take almost zero skill to fly and turret vs. turret matchups are essentially just rolling dice and pointlessly moving your ships around for 60 minutes I don't understand how anyone could consider it too complex.

jon_snow.jpg

That is what the forums are for; helping new players and veterans alike sort out builds, bounce ideas, and share theorycrafting with people of a like mind. For casual play, the game is only as complicated as you want to make it.

-Cal

It's not theorycrafting necessarily, and its not only an issue that the forums can address. I can play any build fairly well, but one of the key reasons I got into this game was a shared love of Star Wars that my son and I have. In earlier iterations, this game was extremely playable for him, he can even fly a mini-swarm decently.

All these different cards, and even the odd movements of some ships like the phantom are pushing the game from its very simple and accessible roots. Our happy medium now is to play Wave 3 (minus the HWK and Lambda since they require substantial care and feeding to get value out of them) and below.

It is unrealistic for me to expect the game to continue to be playable by an 8 year old, but by the same token he was able to play the earlier waves, and yes, for him this game is now becoming too complicated, and for me it's just unwieldy. The box does recommend ages 14+, I'm just a little sad that the game is achieving that goal with the newer waves. To each his own.

That is what the forums are for; helping new players and veterans alike sort out builds, bounce ideas, and share theorycrafting with people of a like mind. For casual play, the game is only as complicated as you want to make it.

-Cal

It's not theorycrafting necessarily, and its not only an issue that the forums can address. I can play any build fairly well, but one of the key reasons I got into this game was a shared love of Star Wars that my son and I have. In earlier iterations, this game was extremely playable for him, he can even fly a mini-swarm decently.

All these different cards, and even the odd movements of some ships like the phantom are pushing the game from its very simple and accessible roots. Our happy medium now is to play Wave 3 (minus the HWK and Lambda since they require substantial care and feeding to get value out of them) and below.

It is unrealistic for me to expect the game to continue to be playable by an 8 year old, but by the same token he was able to play the earlier waves, and yes, for him this game is now becoming too complicated, and for me it's just unwieldy. The box does recommend ages 14+, I'm just a little sad that the game is achieving that goal with the newer waves. To each his own.

With an expandable game, your options will only increase until production halts. Expect the variety to continue growing with new waves. Expecting it to stagnate is a bit silly.

If wave 3 and below is all your kid can handle for now then enjoy what you have. That is still a ton of variety in squads and many hours of fun but mainly, time well spent with your son.

When he gets older, introduce him to newer stuff.

I think most people tend to say the game (or any game for that matter) is not complicated if you don't use all of the rules, parts, expansions, etc...

But that just confirms that it is a bit overwhelming and intricate with everything we have.

How long before people are asking 'how do you keep up with all of the abilities for each pilot'? Or people say 'I have so many upgrades on the table I forget to use them'?

I think many have said it far better than I. Thank you. You may be right that complicated isn't quite the correct word. I do like the game so maybe intricate, a little overwhelming, or as you say unwieldy. Remember that the FAQ is almost as long as the rules.

Worry not.

I also play Warmachine, which is a very intricate system with rulebooks and pdf erratas thick enough to beat a man to death with

it's still a very elegant game

I personally think the simple solution to this is to just play more.

People like to stick with wave 3, but the game has been out for almost 3 years now. You have to take into consideration how long you have had a chance to play with your current stuff. It took people weeks if not months of practice to get really good at flying the interceptors. If you just add stuff a little at a time you get used to it.

It's similar to magic the gathering. New sets are constantly being released every few months and while there are leaks before hand usually it takes a bit to get used to building your deck with the new cards, remembering triggers, and finding out how to use the right ones at the right time.

I think most people tend to say the game (or any game for that matter) is not complicated if you don't use all of the rules, parts, expansions, etc...

But that just confirms that it is a bit overwhelming and intricate with everything we have.

Let me draw an analogy: the game as a whole is complex in the same sense that a box full of Lego is complex. But when you select a number of bricks and use them to build a model, that model can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it.

Here's a list I'm seriously considering for an upcoming Store Championship:

With four ships, one pilot ability, and no upgrades, it's really hard to argue that's a complicated list.

How long before people are asking 'how do you keep up with all of the abilities for each pilot'? Or people say 'I have so many upgrades on the table I forget to use them'?

That's an issue of the capacity of each individual player, not an issue with the game as a whole. It also isn't anything new: in Wave 1 you could run a TIE swarm with six different pilot abilities to keep track of, and you could also run a three-ship X-wing list with six or seven upgrade cards.

Again, Lego: you have an large and growing number of pieces to draw from, but there are a lot of tools out there to help you sort them out, and you can always ask for advice or borrow someone else's set of instructions. What you build from those pieces is entirely up to you.

I don't think it's a matter of being too complicated; more so it's the natural evolution of a game. Just like MTG, you have some players who simply see the cards and play the decks on the surface, and other players who really delve in and dicipher the game within the game.

This game, much like MTG, 40k, etc. is only as complicated as you make it.

No its not to complicated.

If you want to Min/Max, number crunch,, get your panties in a bunch like turret obsessed Ficklegreendice then yes it might overwhelm you.

But Honestly I do believe a new and casual player could jump in, buy a core set and some ships and have fun.

Casual players aren't going to obsess over issues that tournament players do. That solves 99% of any issues in gameplay.

Tournament players are now the 1%

Is X-Wing getting too complicated for casual play?

No. This game even if you double the complexity is still far less complex than anything that GW puts out. And as another example, look at what Wizkids has done to Clix in the last 3 years.

No kidding, I bought clix for over 10 years, haven't bought any in almost 2 years now. Way too complex. It's a fun game but they just took it over the edge and out of control.

Is X-Wing getting too complicated for casual play?

No. This game even if you double the complexity is still far less complex than anything that GW puts out. And as another example, look at what Wizkids has done to Clix in the last 3 years.

Saying something is more complicated isn't quite the same as saying something else is not complicated. Also saying if you eliminate part of the game it isn't complicated address the point.

Yes there are plenty of ways to justify why it is complicated and ways of changing the game to make it not complicated.

I think most people tend to say the game (or any game for that matter) is not complicated if you don't use all of the rules, parts, expansions, etc...

But that just confirms that it is a bit overwhelming and intricate with everything we have.

Let me draw an analogy: the game as a whole is complex in the same sense that a box full of Lego is complex. But when you select a number of bricks and use them to build a model, that model can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it.

Here's a list I'm seriously considering for an upcoming Store Championship:

Colonel Vessery (35)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Bounty Hunter (33)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

With four ships, one pilot ability, and no upgrades, it's really hard to argue that's a complicated list.

How long before people are asking 'how do you keep up with all of the abilities for each pilot'? Or people say 'I have so many upgrades on the table I forget to use them'?

That's an issue of the capacity of each individual player, not an issue with the game as a whole. It also isn't anything new: in Wave 1 you could run a TIE swarm with six different pilot abilities to keep track of, and you could also run a three-ship X-wing list with six or seven upgrade cards.

Again, Lego: you have an large and growing number of pieces to draw from, but there are a lot of tools out there to help you sort them out, and you can always ask for advice or borrow someone else's set of instructions. What you build from those pieces is entirely up to you.

You make some very good points. But at least with Legos (I have grandkids) every kit you purchase has an age bracket. This particular game, X-Wing, is getting more intricate with each wave. There is more to keep up with, more to track, so many combos it is getting difficult for a casual player to know what goes best with what.

That was actually my only point; as a casual player it may be becoming overwhelming to build squads with all of the combos and know what is good and what should go with what. R7 and Mison for example. That's all, a simple question.

P.S. to the Chess post earlier. Every chess piece doesn't come with multiple upgrade to chose from before the game and the need to buy wave 6 to use your Bishop well against other players.