Let's use warcraft raiding as an example, you have three tiers of raiding:

Looking for raid: a group of random people go in and basically ignore all the mechanics and just dps the boss down no real effort required but you also don't learn anything.

This is your rookie x-wing player you pick what seems good and roll some dice having fun but not really learning high end play.

Normal mode: here you need a clue because boss abilities will kill you if you do the fight wrong, if you go in blind you die horribly time after time, however if you watch some videos and read some tactics the boss will die.

This is your experienced casual who decides to start tournaments if you go with a build you like but isn't competitive you'll win the odd match but you won't place in the top, but if you make a better list practice with it you'll do much better.

Mythic: the fights become unforgiving of mistakes but by mastering the fight you get bigger rewards.

This is your champion level player who has as close to perfect a list as possible, knows it inside and out and takes each fight seriously.

A casual player unwilling to do a little study or watch a few videos is a player with no interest in winning the world championships and will never realise that the a-wing is over priced or that the advanced is under gunned.

People who want to up their game will have zero issue learning what's good and what's not.

here is a question: do you think that basic squad stands a chance against souped up phantoms, fat hans, fat dash, etc? i am genuinely asking the question. It seems like new or casual players are sort of discouraged from playing in tourneys because they are at a disadvantage, and not just the "new guy" disadvantage, but there is a definite list building learning curve. I am not whining, I am glad the game continues to grow, and I play in tourneys and do OK, but I am a little concerned about new players who might have an interest in competitive play. Just putting this out for opinions, not really ruling on it myself.

How many would be interested in a seperate tournament that was capped at wave 3? Good idea? Bad idea?

Fire away

Making a competitive list is part of the skills needed to win tournaments.

I'll answer your question with a question: Would it be okay if the guy that didn't invest time and practice in the game has as much chance to win than an experienced player that devout time to perfect his game? What's the point to practice and study the game if anybody coming with any list they want can win the tournament?

Practice makes perfect.

To be healthy, the tournament scene must reward skills and knowledge of the game. Would it be alright if anybody could enter the World Series of Poker and win the Championship? No, the less-experienced players get eliminated in first rounds and there is a reason for that, they're not good enough. Would it be okay if a high school team of basketball had a chance against a collegial one, or a NBA one?

At his core, tournaments are meant to test skills, to see who's the better player of the day. If a player with only a couple games played had as much chance to win than the one who's been playing for 2-3-4 years, then there is something wrong with the game as a competitive one. It doesn't reward skills.

Should it discourage new players? Not if they're interested in this aspect of the game. But competitive play is definetly not for everybody. For those not interested, there is casual play and it is a great fun! I personally love both for what they offer. Tournaments to test my skills and casual for simple stupid fun. The game can be played both ways.

if you think this game is complicated.... just try and understand stack in magic... then you'll rest easy knowing this game has a long long life ahead of it!

(Though they might have to New World Order soon to minimize needless complication!!)

The stack is relatively simple. Using it to your advantage, isn't terribly difficult either. If you want an example of a complicated Magic rule, discuss layers *shudder*

Thanks everyone. There are some interesting ideas. But I don't understand some of the comments. It is only as complicated as I make it sounds like the game is most likely complicated just don't use it all. Or it's not complicated it's incredibly intricate. Or if I realize it's complicated then I can't be a casual player. Also I realize there are far more complicated games than X-Wing. But if it is complicated then it is...

My point was that the game is more complicated than it used to be and is becoming a bit overwhelming with all of the varied options. I still play casually.

Is chess too complicated for casual play? There's your answer.

One of the things I like about X-wing is that the rules themselves are fairly simple but yet the game scales well from casual play to intense tournament play, so a player can find where he or she feels comfortable and play there ... much like chess. Play occasionally or study the game deeply -- the only question that matters is "Are you having fun the way you choose to play the game?"

We have a crop of new players starting out at my club and I find they revel in the complicated intricacies of squad building. They're always coming up with new combos and inventive ways to use them, its great.

if you think this game is complicated.... just try and understand stack in magic...

The stack was one of the greatest innovations in magic. It made the timing of the game rules so much easier to understand and parse. I cannot fathom why they got rid of it.

My point was that the game is more complicated than it used to be

Any game that features regular expansions progressively becomes more complicated than it used to be. The only way to stop that is to either stop expanding the game or cycle older expansions out of the game so that the pool of available components remains constant. Neither of those is a viable option for this game.

here is a question: do you think that basic squad stands a chance against souped up phantoms, fat hans, fat dash, etc? i am genuinely asking the question. It seems like new or casual players are sort of discouraged from playing in tourneys because they are at a disadvantage, and not just the "new guy" disadvantage, but there is a definite list building learning curve. I am not whining, I am glad the game continues to grow, and I play in tourneys and do OK, but I am a little concerned about new players who might have an interest in competitive play. Just putting this out for opinions, not really ruling on it myself.

How many would be interested in a seperate tournament that was capped at wave 3? Good idea? Bad idea?

Fire away

Basic Squads? Tarn Mison+R7+Hull Upgrade, 6 Bandits. Or really, just some variation on Zs. That's my thing. And it works out great for me. And Zs helped to bring me into playing competitively (finally).

As to your second question, I wouldn't be interested in a Pre-Wave 4 tourney. Rebels (and Scum now) are my jam, and stuff that would prevent me from flying my swarms would be a turn-off.

Though, if I would go to such a tourney, As/Bs/Xs in some form would be by fall back.

Is chess too complicated for casual play? There's your answer.

One of the things I like about X-wing is that the rules themselves are fairly simple but yet the game scales well from casual play to intense tournament play, so a player can find where he or she feels comfortable and play there ... much like chess. Play occasionally or study the game deeply -- the only question that matters is "Are you having fun the way you choose to play the game?"

Good point.

if you think this game is complicated.... just try and understand stack in magic...

The stack was one of the greatest innovations in magic. It made the timing of the game rules so much easier to understand and parse. I cannot fathom why they got rid of it.

They did what now? I haven't played Magic in years.

The stack is still a thing in magic. You could argue it's the only thing lol if you ignore playing a land.

Thanks everyone. There are some interesting ideas. But I don't understand some of the comments. It is only as complicated as I make it sounds like the game is most likely complicated just don't use it all. Or it's not complicated it's incredibly intricate. Or if I realize it's complicated then I can't be a casual player. Also I realize there are far more complicated games than X-Wing. But if it is complicated then it is...

My point was that the game is more complicated than it used to be and is becoming a bit overwhelming with all of the varied options. I still play casually.

So you're saying that because there is a larger variety there is to much to choose from? Yet you make the decission to only play casually....which means you should be playing what you want and not care about the meta....there is something to not understand.

FIFO 4 Life!!!!

Thanks everyone. There are some interesting ideas. But I don't understand some of the comments. It is only as complicated as I make it sounds like the game is most likely complicated just don't use it all. Or it's not complicated it's incredibly intricate. Or if I realize it's complicated then I can't be a casual player. Also I realize there are far more complicated games than X-Wing. But if it is complicated then it is...

My point was that the game is more complicated than it used to be and is becoming a bit overwhelming with all of the varied options. I still play casually.

So you're saying that because there is a larger variety there is to much to choose from? Yet you make the decission to only play casually....which means you should be playing what you want and not care about the meta....there is something to not understand.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or you don't understand? I was saying the amount of variety may be getting overwhelming for a casual game.

I do play what I want but that ignores the question and point.

Does that help?

It can become overwhelming for an entry point.

Back during wave 2 and 3, I could introduce the game to a new player by handing him the pilots and upgrades decks and let him choose what he want to play. Now, I kinda have to make the team for him, since there is now so many options that a new player can get lost.

But, as soon as the player is interested and decide to invest just a little time to learn about the cards, he'll be able to make a decent team to play in a casual game. Meanwhile, I'll try my most exentric lists that I would not dare play in a tournament. That will result in a very fun casual game.

Would that casual player that don't really take the time to learn about all the possible combos the game has to offer or check what is the hot new build flying around fare well in a tournament? Probably not. But in casual game, he'll still have fun.

So, to answer your question, if we are talking about a player that never played a game before or someone that just is not interested enough to check what is available: Yes, it's probably getting too complicated. But, as soon as the player is interested in the game: No, I don't think it is, for casual play.

Thanks everyone. There are some interesting ideas. But I don't understand some of the comments. It is only as complicated as I make it sounds like the game is most likely complicated just don't use it all. Or it's not complicated it's incredibly intricate. Or if I realize it's complicated then I can't be a casual player. Also I realize there are far more complicated games than X-Wing. But if it is complicated then it is...

My point was that the game is more complicated than it used to be and is becoming a bit overwhelming with all of the varied options. I still play casually.

So you're saying that because there is a larger variety there is to much to choose from? Yet you make the decission to only play casually....which means you should be playing what you want and not care about the meta....there is something to not understand.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or you don't understand? I was saying the amount of variety may be getting overwhelming for a casual game.

I do play what I want but that ignores the question and point.

Does that help?

I can assure you no sarcasm was used in that. You are right I don't understand what you are getting at anymore. You are saying you play what you want. So why does it matter what all is out there. What exactly are you wanting...to see how many agree with you? I think having more choices is great. As others have stated a casual player could play bare bones X-Wings against bare bones TIE Fighters and get just as much out of this game as people with super synergistic, I may have just made a word up, lists.

I personally have had no trouble understanding an upgrade or pilot that has been made. That being said I also don't spend alot of time playing. I am like the reverse casual player. I live an hour away from a gaming store in any direction from my house. I think I have played only 4 casual games in 6 months, but I play in tournament play every 2 weeks at what you can call my LGS an hour away. If anything having to filter all these upgrades and pilots and figure out what works best is actually harder on the people who play competitively.

Again the game is what "You" make it. Just because there is a mind-boggling amount of upgrades and pilots out there for some. There is nothing saying you have to use everything. Also as a casual player all you need is access to one of the numberous free squad building sites and boom....you can proxy upgrades in casual friendly games to see what works best for your play style, and then decide if you want to drop the coin and buy the ship that card comes with just incase you decide to try a tourney out ever once and a while.

This game is barely taking it's first steps as far as many other tabletop miniature games go.

I mean we don't even have a third faction yet. WM and Hordes have 10+ with each faction having more models then the whole catalog of X-wing. Not to mention a ruleset that has likely more pages devoted to different types of Power Attacks then the entirety of X-wings rulebook. Maybe even if you include the FAQ.

Moreover the idea that it's too complicated for the casual gamer doesn't make sense. The casual gamer has the luxury of playing the game however they wish. They don't have to look at or consider the whole array of options because they have nothing creating a need to do so. Unlike competitive play.

Though FFG games does include a large subsection of gamer who's gaming history begins and ends with mid-level board games that they may or may not have ever actually known the rules for. So yeah there are some people picking up X-wing that are going to consider it complicated, but they may not have a concept of what that actually means.

I got the chance today to talk to a couple different new players- one was just starting put, and one was interested in picking the game up once Scum hits.

For both players, the advice was the same: core set. And then another core set. And then get a Tie Fighter expansion, because Howlrunner is awesome. And then an X-Wing expansion, because Wedge is awesome.

And then start figuring out your play style, and buy from there.

Is this game "too complicated"? Once you've taken the plunge, and have a couple of everything, maybe! But when you're just starting out, it's actually pretty small and simple.

I play the game... the game does not play me.

Everyone I've played with is new to the game. I'm new to the game having just started at Christmas.

We haven't restricted ourselves to early waves or any other false boundaries. We have so far played no proxy so everyone learns what they have already got. We may or may not relax this to let people experiment though.

I've probably dove in the most so far as far as researching and watching videos and I've encouraged others to do the same but I've had no trouble at all showing basics and basics+ to those who just want to play.

It's as complicated as you make it is very true. I already feel ready to start more competitive play and I am willing to accept that will be a learning experience but the OP is about casual play... That's a piece of cake to pick up with X-wing.

X-Wing is not too complicated for casaul play - the learning curve is extending but not exaclty getting steper since Wave 4 (Cloaking is a shock and the Phantom still the most complicated ships to learn and understand IMO, still it did not turn the game inside out)

The accessibilty of system never decreased, as while the number of options continue to grow the foundations are still very much easy and stayed the same - You want to fly a TIE Defender, and it's no problem - nothing required but what's in the Defender expansion and the Core Set (and that just for the templates and the rulebook). Same with any ship or combo from Rebels and S&V, you can always pick what you want and play it.

(Since we are talking casual I'm assuming opening up the format beyond the tournament sizes for Games is a given)

You might not be able to win with every wild combination but I seriously doubt that you expect that in a game of strategy and tactics. A game of like this has it build-in that at least some optimization is required if you want to win (just how much optimization you do speratres casual form tournament players)

I guess what do you mean by casual play? If you mean pick up games between those that know how to play, I'd say know. We all have a few dozen (OK, thousands...) lists in our head. For those that have not played before, the game is still as it was when it first came out. Teach people to play the way the Core suggests - small games. One x-wing vs. 2 tie fighters is still the way to break the ice. I have yet to teach someone, completely knew to this game format, with a 100 point game. Heck, I generally ask them what their favorite Star Wars ships are, and then hand them a build based on their answer.

I'm not sure "complicated" is the word, "unwieldy" is more appropriate. For example, I don't have any problems understanding how the cards work, interact, or have problems stringing actions together. It certainly takes a lot longer to resolve a single turn, slows the game down terribly, and if that kind of minutiae isn't your thing, the game becomes pretty boring.

Clearly that type of intricacy is a big draw for a lot of miniature players, and I'm pretty sure this design path was kind of inevitable. I know exactly what you are talking about though and in some ways it does feel a little sad, but you can't stop progress.

But you know what, let's see if we can make ourselves feel better, and let us count our blessings!

1) We are so lucky that Jay Little was the original designer of this game. His ability to put together deep games with simple rules really is amazing. His vision is the primary reason why there's a sizable casual demographic for this game. Seriously, this is rare for wargames.

2) The game and expansions though often in short supply are still very reasonably priced. I may not play the newer expansions, but considering the quality of the models and artwork, I've still managed to buy every available expansion and not feel like I've thrown away money.

3) The "fiddliness" of the game didn't really take off until after the OT ships were released. As a huge OT fan if you play only OT waves you've got all the advantages of the simplicity in the early development of the game with all the iconic ships. Wave 3 is IMO the golden age of this game, and all the OT ships are there

4) FFG hasn't necessarily forgotten about us casuals! I believe those new playmats were made for us. They allow you to bring in something beautiful and iconic to the game without modifying any aspect of game play. You better believe I bought both.

5) The game is really easy to houserule out the bits you don't like. I always throw a shout out to Fab's Squadron generator, because it makes this so easy. I pick the waves I want, have it optimize on ships (means less cards) and BAM! that thing generates really fun lists like it's going out of style. I highly recommend you try it.

The days of this being a light, accessible romp through the Star Wars universe may be over, but there's still plenty for us to enjoy.

PS. if you truly enjoy the early design of this game, I highly recommend Blood Bowl Team Manager. Just another example of Jay Little taking something iconic and absolutely crushing it.

Keep flying casual