I haven't run into a TO yet (me being one of them) that will uphold this rule.

Honestly this silly argument comes up every time, as is there's some loophole you can exploit to get around the rules. But that loophole simply doesn't exist, because everything is at the discretion of the TO.

And here is where we agree. This is a silly argument, and you're right that the only safe bet is to have the correct cardboard.

That being said, wither you find my wager silly or not, I'm counting on FFG to do what they have done in the past; do away with silly rules that do not effect the game in any way.

Ha. This argument has previously been pushed to its logical conclusion and no one will be happy when it finally ends.

No, faction identity is not part of the dial because it has no impact on the game (unless you are of the opinion that part of my stapler's function is telling me that it is a one-touch - staplers staple, that is their function no matter what the manufacturer paints/stamps onto them). Yes, you can paint your dials like Zebras and cover up everything but the ship name. Yes, it could be future proofing (but remember that this argument can be used to justify almost anything). Yes, the TO can tell you that you can't use your Zebra dials - but he can also tell you that you can't use you unmodified dials. Yes, most importantly, using a Rebel dial with a Scum ship is against the rules.

Finally, yes, OP, you can use whatever ship you want. The rules don't come out and directly say that you can use the Rebel Z-Wing as a Scum Z-Wing (unless there is a FAQ), but they do provide the ship tiles so that Rebel Y-Wings and Imperial Firesprays can be used as a part of the Scum faction. So, rest assured that you can fly the cool new colors or the cool old colors (provided that the use the appropriate dial, of course ).

Why so serious? Don't most people just place their dials on the ship cards so as not to crowd the playing area during activation?

Also, in what sense is a new faction paint scheme any different from people painting their ships? I'm failing to see where the confusion comes from on that one.

and you're right that the only safe bet is to have the correct cardboard.

What FFG does or doesn't do, I really don't care about that much. But either way it doesn't really affect me, I'll play with the ships I have and have the correct cardboard for everything I use. If someone else doesn't I doubt I'd say a thing, it doesn't really bother me if someone uses a proxy.

But I can see why FFG put the rule into place and don't expect them to change it.

But this 'loophole' that comes up every time is simply pointless, because the only thing it accomplishes is to run a otherwise useful dial, because painting it won't fool anyone.

and you're right that the only safe bet is to have the correct cardboard.

What FFG does or doesn't do, I really don't care about that much. But either way it doesn't really affect me, I'll play with the ships I have and have the correct cardboard for everything I use. If someone else doesn't I doubt I'd say a thing, it doesn't really bother me if someone uses a proxy.

And from the beginning... I've agreed with this. We, the players, make this game great.

Fly casual.

I should have said that I'll have both the correct dials and cardboard just using mixed painted ships albeit all Y-Wings or Z-95.

As for my limited opinion on FFG ruling that the dial must match the faction. If they change this rule then they will never be able to come out with an identical ship but a different dial. Maybe S&V steals broken tech like an X-Wing that just isn't as good or anything.

This current ruling keeps is safe for future upgrades.

Just my two cents.

What is the forum white now?

What is the forum white now?

Ok, so its not just me.

The topic heading has already been answered: As long as you are using an unmodified FFG ship model of the correct type you can have it painted however you like. If you want to use an expansion Interceptor to represent the RGP you are using and the Ace's Red Interceptor to represent a tricked out Fel that is perfectly legal. Using the Y and Z models are all the same difference.

While you can use any FFG model of the appropriate type you have needed the right pilot cards and base chits to go along with what you want to fly. You one ImpAces and an Interceptor expansion you don't have the cards and base pieces to fly three Alphas or even two Royals and Jax.

Now to degenerate this thread we also get to add an apparent requirement that a ship's dial must belong to the specific faction. I see the mention of marking up your dials being legal and also the procedure if the 'wrong' dial is set for a ship in the tournament rules which tells me that faction shouldn't matter but it seems that is not the official stance. I really hope FFG gets their wits and will say that the dial and model go together no matter the faction; they already have cards to limit how things get used.

With the official stance as it appears I would have been MUCH happier if they just put something other than Z-95s and a Y-Wing in most wanted. I mean owning Rebel Zs does nothing to help you with Scum Zs with the opposite also being true; the Rebel Y may get used alongside Scum Ys in a 1:1 ratio but Scum Ys aren't ever going to fly for the Rebels. To me if this is how they want to play things then they should have just started this BS at the beginning and say you can't mix use pilots with dials from sets those pilots didn't come in; if you wanted to fly Biggs and Luke then you should have NEEDED to have two core sets instead of a core plus X-Wing expansion.

Oh, I also wonder what's up with this funny new color scheme.

Anyone know how many of each dial is coming in the scum and villany starter set?

Two Zs, two HWKs, a Firespray and a Lambda.

I fully expect FFG to overturn this.

Don't hold your breath. They have if nothing else a financial reason to make that ruling.

I don't see them just selling dials anytime soon.

You're right, so you'll have to buy the ships you're going to use.

So if I have 4 Rebel Z-95s and want to run 3 Z-95s in my S&V force, I'll have to buy a second S&V Starter set just because I lack the S&V versions of the maneuver dials? Even if I have enough pilot cards (there are 6 in the starter) and ship bases (there are 3 for the S&V Z-95s in the box)? That's silly...

It's even worse for the Firespray. If I want to run a second S&V Firespray, I would have to buy this whole kit a second time JUST to get a second S&V version of the dial?

Some seem to think that is the financially smart way for FFG to play it, but I would argue the opposite. Unless they plan to release S&V-specific packs of these ships individually (or release the dials separately), the ruling runs counter to their sales strategy to this point. I can see this turning some folks off.

I fully expect FFG to overturn this.

Don't hold your breath. They have if nothing else a financial reason to make that ruling.

I don't see them just selling dials anytime soon.

You're right, so you'll have to buy the ships you're going to use.

So if I have 4 Rebel Z-95s and want to run 3 Z-95s in my S&V force, I'll have to buy a second S&V Starter set just because I lack the S&V versions of the maneuver dials? Even if I have enough pilot cards (there are 6 in the starter) and ship bases (there are 3 for the S&V Z-95s in the box)? That's silly...

It's even worse for the Firespray. If I want to run a second S&V Firespray, I would have to buy this whole kit a second time JUST to get a second S&V version of the dial?

Some seem to think that is the financially smart way for FFG to play it, but I would argue the opposite. Unless they plan to release S&V-specific packs of these ships individually (or release the dials separately), the ruling runs counter to their sales strategy to this point. I can see this turning some folks off.

When you must use Scum dials for Scum ships and Rebel/Imperial dial for Rebel/Imperial ships that is EXACTLY what it is going to mean.

A naysayer may say that "at least you get to pull one Y-Wing, HWK, and Firespray from your collection to use in the Scum faction by purchasing Most Wanted" but that does feel like a slap in the face in a lot of ways.

I think some people need to get over themselves, and realise not everyone can afford to replicate all their Y-Wings, Z-95's etc. When I get the Scum and Villany kit I have enough of the correct parts (depending on how many base cards come with the kit) to run 4 S&V X-95's using 3 S&V dials and one identical (other than the logo on the back) Rebel dial.

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

RoV

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

There's no rules lawyering, only the very clear statement by FFG itself. That they will require you to use the correct faction dial at FFG sanctioned events.

What you do at your LFG or with your friends is completely up to you.

but that does feel like a slap in the face in a lot of ways.

Yeah I can see how getting free dials, pilot cards and the rest is just like being slapped in the face... It's not like you're already getting a good deal with Most Wanted, 3 ships for $40...

I think some people need to get over themselves, and realise not everyone can afford to replicate all their Y-Wings, Z-95's etc. When I get the Scum and Villany kit I have enough of the correct parts (depending on how many base cards come with the kit) to run 4 S&V X-95's using 3 S&V dials and one identical (other than the logo on the back) Rebel dial.

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

RoV

Yeah, but I think priority plays a big role here. Yes, money is an issue, especially if this isn't the only game you're playing. I don't have a huge fleet of ships. I'm missing quite a few ships and associated upgrades (Imperial Aces, Rebel Aces, Z-95, TIE Defender, Shuttle, Decimator, Phanotm). But I'm not gonna roll into a tournament and ask to proxy an extra Advanced Sensors or Predator.

However, I'm totally fine running 2 of my 4 Y-wings as Scum, and if I like the way it runs, I'm totally prepared to buy a second Most Wanted so I can have 4 of 5 Y-wings flying Scum. To me, this faction is worth it. I don't feel cheated by FFG in any way.

So if buying an extra Most Wanted doesn't sound appealing to you, don't buy it. But don't expect everyone to be cool with your Rebel dials in Scum squads just because you think it's "a little expensive." Because not everyone can afford multiples of every upgrade but that's never swayed anybody into thinking official proxies were a good idea.

I play with dials on the table as opposed to pilot cards. If one plays like that then things could get confusing with ships with the wrong faction's dial. I'm guessing that's a part of the reasoning. The only thing I put on my pilot cards are shield tokens.

Either way, MW is a steal for how much is inside anyway.

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

There's no rules lawyering, only the very clear statement by FFG itself. That they will require you to use the correct faction dial at FFG sanctioned events.

What you do at your LFG or with your friends is completely up to you.

A difference that makes no difference isn't worth wasting breath on. As someone else suggested, just a colour dot sticker over the faction pictures (for personal identificaion purposes) and they ARE identical. It would be rather retentive to have an issue with that.

I think some people need to get over themselves, and realise not everyone can afford to replicate all their Y-Wings, Z-95's etc. When I get the Scum and Villany kit I have enough of the correct parts (depending on how many base cards come with the kit) to run 4 S&V X-95's using 3 S&V dials and one identical (other than the logo on the back) Rebel dial.

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

RoV

Yeah, but I think priority plays a big role here. Yes, money is an issue, especially if this isn't the only game you're playing. I don't have a huge fleet of ships. I'm missing quite a few ships and associated upgrades (Imperial Aces, Rebel Aces, Z-95, TIE Defender, Shuttle, Decimator, Phanotm). But I'm not gonna roll into a tournament and ask to proxy an extra Advanced Sensors or Predator.

However, I'm totally fine running 2 of my 4 Y-wings as Scum, and if I like the way it runs, I'm totally prepared to buy a second Most Wanted so I can have 4 of 5 Y-wings flying Scum. To me, this faction is worth it. I don't feel cheated by FFG in any way.

So if buying an extra Most Wanted doesn't sound appealing to you, don't buy it. But don't expect everyone to be cool with your Rebel dials in Scum squads just because you think it's "a little expensive." Because not everyone can afford multiples of every upgrade but that's never swayed anybody into thinking official proxies were a good idea.

Proxy? No, that is using something different to be what you want. As you know, the dials are effectively identical, with ZERO in-game difference. This is VERY different to using a Predator card and calling it Advanced Sensors.

This argument is over a difference that has no in-game difference. That's the important point. I think people need to get over it.

RoV

As someone else suggested, just a colour dot sticker over the faction pictures (for personal identificaion purposes) and they ARE identical.

That won't work and I've pointed out why it won't work already so I won't bother doing so again. But I will say that doing so will accomplish one thing and one thing only. It will give you a dial you can't use for either faction.

As someone else suggested, just a colour dot sticker over the faction pictures (for personal identificaion purposes) and they ARE identical.

That won't work and I've pointed out why it won't work already so I won't bother doing so again. But I will say that doing so will accomplish one thing and one thing only. It will give you a dial you can't use for either faction.

Only if the tournament organiser is the retentive type I imagine. Perhaps you could explain how marking the dial as belonging to you, without affecting any of the gameplay relevant parts, is against the rules?

RoV

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

There's no rules lawyering, only the very clear statement by FFG itself. That they will require you to use the correct faction dial at FFG sanctioned events.

What you do at your LFG or with your friends is completely up to you.

A difference that makes no difference isn't worth wasting breath on. As someone else suggested, just a colour dot sticker over the faction pictures (for personal identificaion purposes) and they ARE identical. It would be rather retentive to have an issue with that.

I think some people need to get over themselves, and realise not everyone can afford to replicate all their Y-Wings, Z-95's etc. When I get the Scum and Villany kit I have enough of the correct parts (depending on how many base cards come with the kit) to run 4 S&V X-95's using 3 S&V dials and one identical (other than the logo on the back) Rebel dial.

Keep the rules lawyering to 40k and Warmahordes thanks.

RoV

Yeah, but I think priority plays a big role here. Yes, money is an issue, especially if this isn't the only game you're playing. I don't have a huge fleet of ships. I'm missing quite a few ships and associated upgrades (Imperial Aces, Rebel Aces, Z-95, TIE Defender, Shuttle, Decimator, Phanotm). But I'm not gonna roll into a tournament and ask to proxy an extra Advanced Sensors or Predator.

However, I'm totally fine running 2 of my 4 Y-wings as Scum, and if I like the way it runs, I'm totally prepared to buy a second Most Wanted so I can have 4 of 5 Y-wings flying Scum. To me, this faction is worth it. I don't feel cheated by FFG in any way.

So if buying an extra Most Wanted doesn't sound appealing to you, don't buy it. But don't expect everyone to be cool with your Rebel dials in Scum squads just because you think it's "a little expensive." Because not everyone can afford multiples of every upgrade but that's never swayed anybody into thinking official proxies were a good idea.

Proxy? No, that is using something different to be what you want. As you know, the dials are effectively identical, with ZERO in-game difference. This is VERY different to using a Predator card and calling it Advanced Sensors.

This argument is over a difference that has no in-game difference. That's the important point. I think people need to get over it.

RoV

I hate to get pedantic on you, but the difference between Predator and Marksmanship is the exact same difference between a Rebel Y-wing dial and a Scum Y-wing dial: different paint on the cardboard.

EDIT: Okay, I'm being a little obstinate. If I take a step back, I can see where you're coming from. In a way, having different dials is like having alternate art pilots and upgrades. They have the exact same text, but they look different.

For me, though, having matching faction dials is really important. If I looked across the table and saw three Y-wings, each with Scum ship tokens and then saw two Scum dials and one Rebel dial, I'd feel turned off by that. It wouldn't feel like a Scum faction to me. To me, it would feel like you are using proxies. I know mechanically it's different, but this is how it would feel to me. I mean seriously, if you want to run 3 Y-wings so bad, just go out and buy another Most Wanted. I don't see what the deal is. If running 3 Y-wings doesn't mean much to you, then just bring the two you get with 1x Most Wanted.

I'm glad this is FFG's ruling it this way. Otherwise, the game feels a bit tacky. That's pretty much what it comes down to. I don't like the way it looks. I know getting the right dials seems like a bit of financial investment as the third wave is getting started, but I doubt we'll see much more of this in the future.

I hate to get pedantic on you, but the difference between Predator and Marksmanship is the exact same difference between a Rebel Y-wing dial and a Scum Y-wing dial: different paint on the cardboard.

the real solution to this is getting the OP a store to play at with other players that own their own stuff.

There's two separate issues...

There is what Is, and what some people think Should Be.

The rule is, that faction artwork does in fact matter. This is not subject to debate, unless FFG changes their stance (which I personally don't think they will) then that is the rule, period end of story.

There is no room to debate this, it is simply what the ruling is.

People can if they wish argue about what should be, and myself I have no interest in that debate. There's valid points on both sides of the argument but unless you can convince FFG to change their stance then it just doesn't matter, when talking about the rule is.

But that rule only really applies when the TO in question will actually enforce it. Some will some won't, so the impact this will have will depend greatly on the TOs in your area.

This will have no effect on friendly games, the only impact is on Competitive and Premier level tournaments, and even not all of those.

Furthermore, it seems like some people are losing their mind simply because someone is telling them they can't do something. Something they will likely never actually want to do, and unless they're going to be playing a S&V list with ships they don't have dials for at Worlds, unlikely to ever actually have any issues in the first place.

You can fly at most 4 S&V Y-Wings... Sure in theory you could use 5 naked ones but your problem would not be the lack of dials... Few if any will ever want 5+ Z-95's either. The make great filler but 5+ swarms just don't work great, especially for S&V with a PS of 1.

So realistically, 2 MW packs is the most that anyone is likely to actually want.

Also if you only have 1 MW pack, you could at most fly 3 Z's or Y's, because there's only 3 base cards, so the fact that you have 4+ rebel versions you're still limited to a max of 3 ships even if you can use the wrong dial.

So frankly, you have a few people who are losing their freaking minds and making much ado about nothing.

If you completely cover the faction side of the dial, no one would ever know what faction that dial belongs to. Under current rules... that's legal.

And are you going to paint your dials matte black?

Beyond arguing about what people think should or shouldnt be the case, this +1:

There's two separate issues...

There is what Is, and what some people think Should Be.

The rule is, that faction artwork does in fact matter. This is not subject to debate, unless FFG changes their stance (which I personally don't think they will) then that is the rule, period end of story.

Further to this while X-wing may be a fantastic hobby game we all play it is a money maker for FFG. Their competitive play is set up as a way to push the games proliferation and media attention as well as reward their best customers. This is why you are required to supply everything you want to use at a tournament, because it makes them money.

I really don't understand why people can't wrap their heads around the fact that they are a walking bank account for FFG to tap, and that despite this we've received a great offer in the form of the S&V starter set that allows us to re-use some existing ships. This has saved us from being FORCED to spend our money to buy certain ships, something

Of course if we ignore competitive play and are talking about your local gaming scene then why the heck even discuss it on a forum? Its between you and your opponents within your scene, not community at large. Either way there is no debate to be had about it here.

If you completely cover the faction side of the dial, no one would ever know what faction that dial belongs to. Under current rules... that's legal.

And are you going to paint your dials matte black?

As I pointed out on page 1 or 2 doing that is not a good idea.

There's effectively 2 types of TO's when it comes to faction dials. Ones who will enforce the rules and ones who won't.

If your TO won't enforce the rule in the first place. Then there's no reason to paint or otherwise cover up the face of the dial. They won't care what faction the dial belongs to. They might however object to having someone paint over their dial, because they may think it looks fishy.

If your TO will enforce the rule, then covering the face of the dial won't accomplish anything, because if they are going to enforce the rule, they won't accept a dial if they can't tell what faction it belongs to.

The key is, that the TO doesn't have to accept any modified components if he or she doesn't wish to. So the rule about personalizing your dial is not a loophole that you can exploit to get around the rule requiring the correct faction.

So by painting the dial the only thing you really accomplish is making it so your dial won't be accepted no matter what faction you play in a tournament. You also take the chance of a TO who would otherwise accept the wrong faction dial from not accepting your modified one.