Also, relative to its big brother aggressor, the Star Viper should be several times easier to use
You can't appreciate the differences between a large and small base until you've put them on the table 
(and no, turrets don't count for anything, I mean real arced ships)
there is an intersting phenomenon on this forum. whenever a new wave is announced, one or two ships get all the love. (the agressor, in this wave) and other ships get either discounted or ignored (like the defender) Then, once the ships actually hit the table, opinions change.
the agressor is very different, it's cool, IG-88, I mean, who doesn't think he is cool? dual cannons, segnor loop, IG-2000 title?
these things are new, and generate a lot of interest, but many waves have a "sleeper" not flashy, does not generate a lot of posts, but winds up being awesome.
My predicted awesome ship is Kavil with Agromech, but I think the starviper may be underappreciated (I personally loathe the ship asthetically, it does not look like it belongs in the star wars universe, just my opinion, I know.) I think it will be a capable ship in the game though. It's a little like the defender but with a better dial for dogfighting.
I agree with you that the Aggressor will not pan out the way many think it will. It sits at an odd PS and cost. You can only fly two of them, and it is almost impossible to get a meaningful 3rd ship in that list. Furthermore, your 2 Aggressors become bloated as you search for good ways to spend the left over few points.
Kavil I think is an easy call. It is a Y-wing that can finally reliably equip a baster! Really, any of the Scum Ys will be good with a blaster, but Kavil will be the best.
Edited by Stone37there is an intersting phenomenon on this forum. whenever a new wave is announced, one or two ships get all the love. (the agressor, in this wave) and other ships get either discounted or ignored (like the defender) Then, once the ships actually hit the table, opinions change.
the agressor is very different, it's cool, IG-88, I mean, who doesn't think he is cool? dual cannons, segnor loop, IG-2000 title?
these things are new, and generate a lot of interest, but many waves have a "sleeper" not flashy, does not generate a lot of posts, but winds up being awesome.
My predicted awesome ship is Kavil with Agromech, but I think the starviper may be underappreciated (I personally loathe the ship asthetically, it does not look like it belongs in the star wars universe, just my opinion, I know.) I think it will be a capable ship in the game though. It's a little like the defender but with a better dial for dogfighting.
I agree with you that the Aggressor will not pan out the way many think it will. It sits at an odd PS and cost. You can only fly two of them, and it is almost impossible to get a meaningful 3rd ship in that list. Furthermore, your 2 Aggressors become bloated as you search for good ways to spend the left over few points.
Kavil I think is an easy call. It is a Y-wing that can finally reliably equip a baster! Really, any of the Scum Ys will be good with a blaster, but Kavil will be the best.
IG-88 C and D with Torkil Mux + Ion Turret.
Only 4 points left. You could give VI to the Aggressors and Inertial Dampeners for 100pts. Or something else.
My numbers put the PS1 as being overpriced by about 2 points. Comparing to the BTL-A4 Y-wing at 23 points for around the same cost (or equal with R4 Agro), I would say that is about right.
Guri is nice but sits at the awkward PS5. Xizor seems like a cheap way to bid to PS9.
Oh no, do you realise what you just done?
I can already see all those posts about the Starviper being overpriced and needing a fix spamming in every discussion we have about it, like with the Defender, just because you said it is overpriced by 2 points...
You should be more cautious with your words Major, some people take them as the absolute truth and won't even bother to try the ship to make an opinion by themselves...
But it's a fair point. Like it or not, PS1 generics in this game have one role: Blocker. If they get to shoot, that's a cool bonus, but their low PS makes it hard to even rely on anyone being in their firing arc, or on them surviving long enough to actually fire. For the price of one Black Sun Enforcer, I can field two Black Sun Soldiers. That will give me more blocking ability, more firing arc coverage, and they'll probably stay on the table longer thanks to more total HP.
So it began...
Except it's nothing I haven't said before?
And it's not like this is unique to the StarViper. The same problems have hit for the PS1 Interceptor, the PS1 Defender and the PS1 E-Wing. The PS1 pilots need to have some sort of very special utility, especially for 20+ points, that is completely unmatched by the 12 point generics. Otherwise, why not just bump up a few points to get a named pilot with an ability who can be almost assured to get a few shots off?
It's compounded by the extremely common usage of Predator, which means that the average attack roll against your PS1 ship is going to be higher than the average attack against the PS3+ ships. The PS1 pilot will need to roll better evade dice than the PS3 guys.
For the StarViper, that utility comes from Autothrusters.
Edited by PhantomFO
Ha ha, it's not the first time I have said that the generic Star Viper is overpriced...
I really like the generic Star Vipers, just not for their cost. It is hard to justify taking one over a BTL-A4 Y-wing with Ion + R4 for the same cost. I could maybe see myself taking the occasional Star Viper for 23 points, which competes in cost directly with the BTL-A4 Ion Y-wing without R4.
Course, your assuming costs in a perfect never ending joust, and the s-loop value is quite difficult to quantify, as is access to auto thrusters. boost + barrel on the same ship is worth a lot to me...
Ha ha, it's not the first time I have said that the generic Star Viper is overpriced...
I really like the generic Star Vipers, just not for their cost. It is hard to justify taking one over a BTL-A4 Y-wing with Ion + R4 for the same cost. I could maybe see myself taking the occasional Star Viper for 23 points, which competes in cost directly with the BTL-A4 Ion Y-wing without R4.
Course, your assuming costs in a perfect never ending joust, and the s-loop value is quite difficult to quantify, as is access to auto thrusters. boost + barrel on the same ship is worth a lot to me...
The S-loop is certainly a variable that cannot be expounded mathematically, but Autothrusters can absolutely be justified with numbers. The only variable would be against ships without turrets, but if you are outside a turret-less ship's arc, you are not taking fire, meaning AT is unnecessary in that situation. But, when you figure your dice average, you simply count blank results on one die as hits. Without focus, you have a 75% chance to get an evade on that die, as opposed to the usual 37.5%. With a focus, you have a 100% chance.
I really like the generic Star Vipers, just not for their cost. It is hard to justify taking one over a BTL-A4 Y-wing with Ion + R4 for the same cost. I could maybe see myself taking the occasional Star Viper for 23 points, which competes in cost directly with the BTL-A4 Ion Y-wing without R4.
One of them can actually move...
The Y-wing, obviously, because the StarVipers spend all their time Ion'ed! 
Ha ha, it's not the first time I have said that the generic Star Viper is overpriced...
I really like the generic Star Vipers, just not for their cost. It is hard to justify taking one over a BTL-A4 Y-wing with Ion + R4 for the same cost. I could maybe see myself taking the occasional Star Viper for 23 points, which competes in cost directly with the BTL-A4 Ion Y-wing without R4.
Course, your assuming costs in a perfect never ending joust, and the s-loop value is quite difficult to quantify, as is access to auto thrusters. boost + barrel on the same ship is worth a lot to me...
We have a pretty solid baseline with functionality from other ships, and we can get a pretty good numerical estimate on the S-loop coefficient relative to other maneuvers. This approach worked for the Defender, and the white K-turn is even harder to predict. Ultimately everything gets related back to the relative firing duty cycle between opposing ships; i.e. how often you can arc dodge. There is a mathematical relationship, but some empirical testing is needed to get a precise value. Thankfully the fundamental math of the game is such that you don't need exact estimates to get reasonable total ship value predictions.
You should be more cautious with your words Major, some people take them as the absolute truth and won't even bother to try the ship to make an opinion by themselves...
But it's a fair point.
I think he was more or less poking fun at the fact that I'll predict a generic ship's value, then when the the meta settles out accordingly a few months after the wave is released, some some people will say that it's all my fault. 
And it's not like this is unique to the StarViper. The same problems have hit for the PS1 Interceptor, the PS1 Defender and the PS1 E-Wing. The PS1 pilots need to have some sort of very special utility, especially for 20+ points, that is completely unmatched by the 12 point generics. Otherwise, why not just bump up a few points to get a named pilot with an ability who can be almost assured to get a few shots off?
.
because it's a few points that you need to spend, and it starts digging a massive hole in your list especially across multiple ships
I've found this incredibly pertinent with the Defender (utility --> ion cannon) which I'm not going to fit in at 35 points each for 30 points to spare when I can drop them in for 33 and 34 to spare. It's the difference between a Soontir Fell with or without auto-thrusters. And I'm sure as **** not kicking up to Vessery or Brath because both abilities are highly situational (Vessery's is sick nasty, but you need to have the list built around it)
PS 1 or not, the Ion Delta kicks all sorts of ass, because the issue of PS becomes negligible when you're not getting shot .
Sadly, I can't say the same about the generic E-wings and I'm not sure about the generic Vipers. Auto-thrusters are cool as all hell, but they don't completely flip the PS game on its head like ion does for PS 1 defenders.
Except it's nothing I haven't said before?So it began...But it's a fair point. Like it or not, PS1 generics in this game have one role: Blocker. If they get to shoot, that's a cool bonus, but their low PS makes it hard to even rely on anyone being in their firing arc, or on them surviving long enough to actually fire. For the price of one Black Sun Enforcer, I can field two Black Sun Soldiers. That will give me more blocking ability, more firing arc coverage, and they'll probably stay on the table longer thanks to more total HP.Oh no, do you realise what you just done?My numbers put the PS1 as being overpriced by about 2 points. Comparing to the BTL-A4 Y-wing at 23 points for around the same cost (or equal with R4 Agro), I would say that is about right.
Guri is nice but sits at the awkward PS5. Xizor seems like a cheap way to bid to PS9.
I can already see all those posts about the Starviper being overpriced and needing a fix spamming in every discussion we have about it, like with the Defender, just because you said it is overpriced by 2 points...
You should be more cautious with your words Major, some people take them as the absolute truth and won't even bother to try the ship to make an opinion by themselves...
And it's not like this is unique to the StarViper. The same problems have hit for the PS1 Interceptor, the PS1 Defender and the PS1 E-Wing. The PS1 pilots need to have some sort of very special utility, especially for 20+ points, that is completely unmatched by the 12 point generics. Otherwise, why not just bump up a few points to get a named pilot with an ability who can be almost assured to get a few shots off?
It's compounded by the extremely common usage of Predator, which means that the average attack roll against your PS1 ship is going to be higher than the average attack against the PS3+ ships. The PS1 pilot will need to roll better evade dice than the PS3 guys.
For the StarViper, that utility comes from Autothrusters.
You do know I was just kidding right?
You do know I was just kidding right?
It was tough to tell, so I treated it straight.
And fickle, fair point on the Ion Defender. Though for my money, you'll have a hard time tearing me away from my man Brath. I haven't even tried Vessary yet, despite seeing how potent he can be.
Heres my thoughts.
Use the Y's to pull damage off Xizor if they want to shoot at him and prioritize anything PS 7+.
Hopefully the ions from the Y's and the feedback array will keep high mobility targets in check, allowing you to finish them fast.
Heres my thoughts.
Use the Y's to pull damage off Xizor if they want to shoot at him and prioritize anything PS 7+.
Hopefully the ions from the Y's and the feedback array will keep high mobility targets in check, allowing you to finish them fast.
My version of that:
Took a few upgrades for maneuvering off Xizor since you're going to want to fly him with the Y-Wings for protection rather than breaking formation. He's fairly maneuverable as it is with Advanced Sensors. Upgraded the Z to N'Dru because it's the only ship in that squad that I could see myself using as a flanker. N'Dru will get a bonus Attack Die when not flying with your squad and Lone Wolf will help him with dealing damage/staying alive.
Heres my thoughts.
Use the Y's to pull damage off Xizor if they want to shoot at him and prioritize anything PS 7+.
Hopefully the ions from the Y's and the feedback array will keep high mobility targets in check, allowing you to finish them fast.
And that's the problem with Xizor... his ability forces him into this, or similar, list if you want to actually use his pilot ability. The Defenders have the same problem.
And that's the problem with Xizor... his ability forces him into this, or similar, list if you want to actually use his pilot ability. The Defenders have the same problem.Heres my thoughts.
Use the Y's to pull damage off Xizor if they want to shoot at him and prioritize anything PS 7+.
Hopefully the ions from the Y's and the feedback array will keep high mobility targets in check, allowing you to finish them fast.
I don't know that I would classify it as a problem though. You have a really good ship and he now has around 20 hitpoints. Unless your completely blanking. If you want to break him off go for it, or he can come in at an off angle and meet the rest of your list when its fight time. Just because he has the amazing ability to redirect damage doesn't mean he needs to use it every single round.
Xizor list: Enter Sandman
I had it up a few months ago when his card was released. Still havn't found a way to make someone shoot at him instead of escorts. Guri is probably better for the same role. I keep saying I'm going to revise it and repost.
Starviper is everything we wanted the interceptor to be with a slightly worse dial for PTL purposes. I think if was more green PTL + autothruster becomes auto include. Virago title is nice and I'm sure a build will develop that will include it but much like every interceptor before it, increasing cost seldom yields the returns you want (Fel and Turr are RGP are the exception here).
It'll find a place because it's solid. I'm not sure if that place will be in a tier 1 list, and definitely not right away.
And that's the problem with Xizor... his ability forces him into this, or similar, list if you want to actually use his pilot ability. The Defenders have the same problem.Heres my thoughts.
Use the Y's to pull damage off Xizor if they want to shoot at him and prioritize anything PS 7+.
Hopefully the ions from the Y's and the feedback array will keep high mobility targets in check, allowing you to finish them fast.
I don't know that I would classify it as a problem though. You have a really good ship and he now has around 20 hitpoints. Unless your completely blanking. If you want to break him off go for it, or he can come in at an off angle and meet the rest of your list when its fight time. Just because he has the amazing ability to redirect damage doesn't mean he needs to use it every single round.
Problem maybe too harsh of a word.... one dimensional. And not in the, works every time, way that Biggs is. I expect to see Xizor often when it comes to StarVipers.
I think Adv. Sensors takes the place of PTL for the Virago. You get your action and then do the red S-loop.
I wouldn't say that Xizor with a mini-swarm is the way to go a problem. Some might find it limiting, but I think that's what he's built for.
Guri is made for Bodyguard. Doesn't have to be for Xizor. You can use it for Boba Fett or someone else. It's especially good if it's for a Firespray that also has a Recon Specialist. Giving green dice alone isn't all that.
You pair Xizor with crappy ships that don't have a lot of offense. Go ahead and shoot a bunch of my Zs. Meanwhile Xizor is blasting holes into your ships. If you want to pair a SV with better ships like FS & IGs, then you are going to want to take Guri. However, you can use Xizor with VI for PS bidding purposes. You don't have to use his ability.
Guri is made for Bodyguard.
That actually is Guri. Just sayin'.
the PTL (or predator) + sensors + dampeners w/probably auto-thrusters Xizor (41, though if anything could be cut it'd be the dampeners) is exactly what I imagined being to go to build
I've had a sort of experience with it when I ran E'athn + R2-D2 + Advanced Sensors + PTL at a local tournie. Dude was basically invincible (can't say the same of his head-hunters), going so far as to out-dice Chiraneau by himself by pulling 24 points of shield upgrades out of R2-D2's ass.
Unfortunately, Xizor has neither R2-D2 nor the Evade action. Instead of evade he has auto-thrusters. Instead of R2-D2, he has his ability. Completely unlike E'athn, he has Ps 7, access to pre-manuever boost, and segnor's. I do think heychad has a point with disregarding PTL, though.
See, E'athn needed the **** out of that because evading + r2-d2 made him essentially immortal without concentrated fire. Xizor does not have evade, but instead has a beautiful new red maneuver. I'm thinking predator might be a better way to do.
Being the weird combination of tank and mobility that he is, I think all a Xizor squad really needs to account for in order to be effective is PS 8+ mobile ships. The two biggest checks to these are 1.) Intelligence agent (hard to find good, cheap platforms for IA in scum though since HWKs won't enjoy taking Xizor's crits) 2.) Ion (oh, we got plenty of those)
It's going to require tons of tinkering to settle on a list, though.
As for Guri, I kind of don't like that she's only a point less, but she does lend herself very well to Lone Wolf.
Guri is made for Bodyguard. Doesn't have to be for Xizor. You can use it for Boba Fett or someone else. It's especially good if it's for a Firespray that also has a Recon Specialist. Giving green dice alone isn't all that.
Objection!
Lore-wise, Guri is made for Bodyguard. Gameplay-wise, you're looking at Moldy Crow Palob. It's the difference between a range 1 focus being used for agility instead of the defense of a very expensive ship, and one of Palob's near infinite supply (possibly even pilfered from the enemy) basically just auto-matically bumping a friendly's agility by one
Edited by ficklegreendiceI think a beefy, powerful, PS 1 with Boost could find its way into some lists. I'm not sure which ones, but it could round out some lists just like the new Tie Advanced might. Id probably only run them in pairs though, leaving 50 pts or something for a Firespray or HWK and Y wing. The good news is you can fit it in some generic only 4 ships lists pretty easily, unlike the Defender or E Wing.
Maybe...
2 x PS1 Starviper
2 x Syndicate Thug + BTL (sp) + Ion + R4 (or AT/FCS on the Starviper)
That at least looks like some traditional BBYY builds, haha. Sorry if I got points wrong, going off memory.
The range of movement afforded by Adv.Sensors on Xizor may be enough to not need VI, which opens him up to having Predator, which is an awesome card.
It would mean shooting after a few folks, but they may not even have a shot, even the likes of Whisper and Echo.
a thought occurs
Is the Starviper the only innate 3 red die small ship in the scum arsenal?
Z-95
Y-wing
Hwk
Firespray
Aggressor
Scyk
By jove, I think it is
You know, I think 4x Enforcers is going to be a completely legitimate list. 5 HP behind 3 AGI is a tough ship, and 4x 3 red dice hits like a truck. I think you start with a slow approach in jousting formation, then break up and knife-fight on the merge. The dial is suited perfectly for that.
I would not expect a Starviper to go down in the first round of shooting, so PS1 is less of an issue. In a knife-fight, PS1 has advantages with blocking at close range as well.
Guri is made for Bodyguard. Doesn't have to be for Xizor. You can use it for Boba Fett or someone else. It's especially good if it's for a Firespray that also has a Recon Specialist. Giving green dice alone isn't all that.
Objection!
Lore-wise, Guri is made for Bodyguard. Gameplay-wise, you're looking at Moldy Crow Palob. It's the difference between a range 1 focus being used for agility instead of the defense of a very expensive ship, and one of Palob's near infinite supply (possibly even pilfered from the enemy) basically just auto-matically bumping a friendly's agility by one
I meant you could use Guri w/ Bodyguard for an escort to Boba Fett or someone. It would especially be good if that someone had Recon Specialist. That way, Boba could use a Focus on Offense and one on Defense, but with 3 green dice.
