Interesting matchup: TIE Defender vs TIE Phantom

By Biophysical, in X-Wing

Because I don't seem to often run into people playing Phantoms, I finally sat down with my favorite ship (the TIE Defender) and played out a series of about half a dozen one-on-one engagements. I was using the cheap, but punchy Whisper with FCS, ACD, and VI at 39 points. In my tests I used a souped up Rexler Brath with HLC and Predator for 47 points or a cheaper 37 point Delta with HLC. Obviously, Rexler Brath is more expensive and should have an edge, but at a one-on-one level, specific interactions often trump a raw points comparison. For example, a cheaper 45 point Rexler Brath with HLC and VI would have an enormous advantage over Whisper, but would be weaker against many other things.

First off, this is an interesting comparison in a vacuum, because opinion and Major Juggler's analysis has the Defender as a decidedly an inferior ship. Nevertheless, there are a number of reasons it has some advantages in a fight vs. a Phantom compared to most snub-fighters. The first is the White K-turn. I've often heard that if you get Whisper on your tail, you're hosed. The interesting thing about a Defender is there isn't really a tail. The K-turn lets you flip and keep firing at maximum effectiveness. The second is the HLC. 4 red dice, while denying the 5th green at Range 3 is an effective, if simple way to nullify a cloaking device.

The field: I clustered 3 asteroids in one corner (representing those placed by the Defender's player) and 1 in each of the other corners.

The rules: I planned the Defender's moves first, then selected moves by the Phantom to try and avoid the Defender's arc while keeping the arc on the Defender. If that was not possible, the Phantom tried for a joust, trying for close range when possible. Typically, the Defender tried to stay near the cluster of asteroids.

Wins and losses: I didn't really keep track of wins and losses, simply because I kept fiddling with lots of things throughout the trials. For example, if a TIE Defender rolled 3 natural Evades, or a Phantom rolled all blanks, I re-rolled it just to keep the fight interesting and not have outlying die rolls strongly effect wins and losses. I didn't document this at all. This is a decidedly non-scientific way to do things, but I was able to glean some interesting lessons anyway, which was the whole point of this exercise.

Caveats: I am not an experienced player with or against Phantoms. My lack of skill or foresight in choosing maneuvers certainly could undermine any lessons I learned from the tests. I did not use non-HLC Defenders in my tests. While certain broad observations will still apply, some specific observations will not be applicable to cannon-less Defenders.

Things I learned:

1.) The opening exchange is the best exchange for the Defender. Whisper won't have a TL from FCS, and the exchange is more likely to be at longer ranges. In this case, the two sides are doing equivalent damage, and Whisper is often faced with interesting decisions about how use the Focus token initially. A mediocre Whisper attack opposed by a good Defense roll by the Defender could leave Whisper with no Focus against a 4 die attack that has a Focus. This isn't the most likely circumstance, but it comes up often enough to make Whisper's life a little rougher, particularly with a Predator re-roll.

2.) When fighting in or near asteroids, there is often one direction of decloak that is disallowed. The Defender (or any ship) can make use of this to cover the other lanes of decloaking with its guns. This is compounded of asteroids will prevent the Phantom from turning in onto the Defender.

3.) In a joust, 4 attack vs 3 Defense with 6 hit points is a bit worse than 4 attack vs 4 Defense with 4 hit points, particularly with Whisper's ability to gain a Focus back. However, the Phantom is more susceptible to poor luck. A Defender might be willing to joust in certain circumstances because the chances of landing a killing blow are higher, even if the average damage over time would favor the Phantom.

4.) The Predator upgrade on the higher point Defender was quite useful. Several turns of 4-hit Attack dice rolls can beat a Phantom down even with 4 greens defending it.

5.) The open field of play heavily favors the Phantom. This almost goes without saying, but is included for completeness. It usually allows two avenues of attack, and the Defender must simply guess which way the Phantom will chose to turn. An undamaged Defender in this case may have some success by sprinting straight, possibly getting inside the Phantom's bank or turn (or simply taking the shots). This sets up a K-turn on the following turn to bring the Phantom back into arc. If at all possible, the Defender should stay near asteroids to limit the Phantom's options to a more predictable set. The white K-turn can be invaluable in this regard.

6.) The firepower and defenses of the TIE Phantom and TIE Defender are closely matched in a one-on-one fight. Games often came down to luck and good use of asteroids, which doesn't seem unreasonable for ships of roughly similar costs.

Regardless of the outcome of my tests, those things won't (and shouldn't) change, because one ship can be good against another but a poorer overall choice. That being said, fans of Defenders like myself shouldn't feel that a Phantom is an automatic trump card over them in the end-game.

Overall, I apologize that this is not very explicit or well-documented with images illustrating the things I've discussed above. Nevertheless, I encourage players to try what I've done, or with either the TIE Defender or their own favorite ships. You'll likely gain a better understanding of what Phantoms can and can't do, and this is probably a better way to learn to combat them than occasionally meeting them when an opponent brings a Phantom list.

If you've made it this far, thanks for reading.

I've found Col. V does really well when he gets the free TL from someone else, too. The Focus + TL every turn is nice and makes a difference vs. Phantoms.

I've found Col. V does really well when he gets the free TL from someone else, too. The Focus + TL every turn is nice and makes a difference vs. Phantoms.

This is my favorite Vessery build which also does really well against Phantoms:

Colonel Vessery (35)

Outmaneuver (3)

Ion Cannon (3)

Cluster Missiles (4)

Total: 45

With a TL and Outmaneuver, Vessery is pretty much guaranteed to land an Ion on a Phantom. When he does, the next round he unloads his Cluster Missile and every other ship in my list moves up to finish him off. I've never had a Phantom survive after getting Ioned.

Vessery is also good against a Rebel Captive Phantom. As long as there's a TL on the Phantom, Vessery could care less about being stressed.

Agreed. Vessery can just jackhammer the Phantom into the ground, HLC or Ion cannon. In a 1 vs 1 scenario, he's more like a the Delta described in the OP. Which is arguably disadvantaged, but not greatly so.

Another really interesting thing (now that I think about it) is a Phantom that has taken a couple points of damage has to start getting really careful against an HLC Defender. It's doesn't take much luck for said Defender to get 4 hits if a Focus token is involved, and Defenders are tough enough that you can sellout for a turn or two and hold that Focus for the attack if you've got a shot lined up. It's much easier to put 2 or 3 damage through in a single turn. It further limits the Phantom's ability to trade shots and plays into the Defender's strength, which is total HP.

I would like to know what a primary attack defender would do to a phantom. 3 hits against 4 dice is still very hard to dodge consistently. I would take a defender 1 vs 1 against pretty much any small ship. A HLC defender would probably be a match for some large ships.

The problem with your analysis is its missing an important card for Whisper: Gunner. That completely changes things. For example, your 1st, 3rd and 4th points become no longer valid because Whisper can freely take EVADE every single turn. With Gunner, that means she will pretty much always be sitting on an Evade + Focus token for defense, relying purely on Gunner + FCS to guarantee strong offense. Try Whisper with Gunner and you will see the Defender no longer stands a chance (at least the ones you used for your tests).

Don't get me wrong, I think the Defender is a great ship. As you mentioned, Brath with Veteran Instincts would totally change the results around too. Ion cannon might be a better choice too given that once it hits, Whisper (or any phantom) loses all of their offensive punch (cannot decloak) and gives the defender a huge advantage (since now whisper cannot attack and loses the focus and ACD benefit)

Definitely, there's a lot of variations that change how one has to play. Rebel Captive is another that would cause major problems. I think overall, use of asteroids is the biggest key, and can substantially reduce the abilities of even the nastiest Phantom build.

I originally started using that build as a support for a fat Chiraneau build. My test games kept coming down to Whisper vs Defender, which made me want to think about it more extensively. A tougher Whisper changes a lot of stuff.

The problem with your analysis is its missing an important card for Whisper: Gunner. That completely changes things. For example, your 1st, 3rd and 4th points become no longer valid because Whisper can freely take EVADE every single turn. With Gunner, that means she will pretty much always be sitting on an Evade + Focus token for defense, relying purely on Gunner + FCS to guarantee strong offense. Try Whisper with Gunner and you will see the Defender no longer stands a chance (at least the ones you used for your tests).

Don't get me wrong, I think the Defender is a great ship. As you mentioned, Brath with Veteran Instincts would totally change the results around too. Ion cannon might be a better choice too given that once it hits, Whisper (or any phantom) loses all of their offensive punch (cannot decloak) and gives the defender a huge advantage (since now whisper cannot attack and loses the focus and ACD benefit)

To the OP, since you are comparing against a ~47 point Defender, a more fair comparison is against a 43 point "buzzsaw" Whisper with FCS + Gunner. Evade for action and then let gunner + FCS do its thing. This is actually very effective against high AGI targets like the Defender.

i have a feeling that Buzzsaw Whisper is going to buzzsaw through any Rexler play.

Or simply come down to 1st turn engagement luck with whether the PS10 VI Ion Cannon shot goes through. Because with taking Vi and Ion Cannon, there-on after, Rexler will not be able to kill Whisper.

If HLC and Predator, as you see, 39 pt much cheaper Whisper can still win with good maneuvering. At 44pts with Buzzsaw you dont stand a chance at all.

So, point wise, there is also that consideration. Whisper is much more cost effective.

I really wish Defenders were better.

Gunner seems not TOO common on Whisper (lots of non believers). As for the 1v1 comparison, it wouldn't be horrid to test that 1v1 matchup out, especially because it is closer in points.

However, I must say it is very true that in a 1v1 fight, most ships are created unequal when compared to repositioning ships, even for equal points. Let's look at...

Soontir + PTL + Hull

vs

Bounty Hunter

There is no doubt that 1v1. Soontir has a clear advantage and would lose that fight very infrequently.

I like the comparison you did, and applaud the eye opening points it brought about. Though maybe, the comparison of Phantom vs Defender might be better spent looking at how those 2 ships fair against OTHER ships and squads. There are obviously some pilots and ships that Whisper struggles against (PS9+, stress, etc) that our pal the Defender doesn't have an inherant weakness too.

Once we have a list of matchups, the question is HOW much better is the Defender at handling these matchups. For example, put that Rexlar vs a PS 11 Fat Han (or PS 9+Init) and see if the ship really IS more capable at doing more damage (unlikely to kill it after all) . Other ships like Corran + R2D1 + FCS + VI too.

Heck, I'd do this for all matchups, not just ones the Phantom is inherently weak to. Say, Fat Chewy, or PTL R2D2 Corran. I have some ideas of how many of these will turn out, but it would be nice to know if the fight is closer than expected, or more of a landslide. I suppose doing some analysis with average dice simulated battles would work too, and can be done with a spreadsheet, haha.

I really wish Defenders were better.

Me too :(

Edited by Jo Jo

As you mentioned, juggler's analysis paints the defender as a strictly inferior ship (it is, statistically) and I don't think Rexy is the pilot to help alleviate that problem :P

Imo, his inflated cost and situational ability (that focus could have been used to get more damage instead of flipping crits) only exacerbate the Defender's stats imbalance.

On the other hand, I have found the Defenders to be unparalleled ion cannon platforms (holy **** does the white k turn start to come into its own) especially when the shorter k on the Rebel's parallel (B-wings) is not nearly as abusable, and guess who hates ion cannons...(the answer is...everyone :lol: )

But apart from that and Vessery's admittedly awesome (if properly built around) ability, I really cannot comprehend why the Delta costs more than the Sigma (or the same as an FCS + Stygium + Int Agent Sigma)

Oh well, at least I've found a very good home for ion Deltas (courtesy of the good baron) and that's far more than I can say for the poor Knave...

Edited by ficklegreendice

I feel like being 3 pts less and possibly having a little more mobility would ahve made it a great and learnable ship (like the lambda) but not in its current state.

Heck, it really should have 4 actions too. Evade. its weird it doesnt and the firespray does. Also, since the defenders cost more, many times youll be up against some focus firing and an evade would be really helpful.

Give me 3 points less and give me a white 2-sharp turn, and I'll give you a beauty of a starfighter

Just give me **** boost naturally. I rather have that then the **** barrel roll.

Just give me **** boost naturally. I rather have that then the **** barrel roll.

So you say...until you have to give up the barrel roll :P

Phild0 gets at the heart of what sort of analysis I would like to do, given the time, which I probably don't have. There's a lot of space for analysis and experimentation there that isn't as easy to talk about as straight stats. You can't do it well (or I can't do it well) with just words, it needs pictures of several moves in a lot of different situations.

That being said, I can offer some insight into considerations where one might want to take a Defender over a Phantom:

1.) Players are taking Phantom killers: If people are loading up on PS 9-11 guys (especially when they're turrets), Phantoms take a pretty serious hit to their durability. Defenders don't care that much thanks to a pretty respectable 3 AGI and 6 HP.

2.) You prefer to fight your opponents in asteroids: Phantoms start having greatly reduced options when decloak options start being blocked. Defenders, while not considered to be nimble turners, have the 1-bank that's great for navigating asteroids, and all the turns if needed, even though some of them are red. Also accidentally landing on a rock doesn't kill you in a Defender the same way it does in a Phantom.

That being said, I can offer some insight into considerations where one might want to take a Defender over a Phantom:.

3.) Cannons (and the only small base imperial platform, and the only one with innate boost/roll, thereof)

4.) **** everything, they just look so cool!

That being said, I can offer some insight into considerations where one might want to take a Defender over a Phantom:.

3.) Cannons (and the only small base imperial platform, and the only one with innate boost/roll, thereof)

4.) **** everything, they just look so cool!

5.) real men fly against the meta not with it!

5.) real men fly against the meta not with it!

we're going to need a Defender pic with the caption "Get in, loser. We're going against the meta!"

Edited by ficklegreendice

somebody make the pic happen.

--

The challenge still remains: Make a defender list that is tip top tier. Not kinda top tier. Not if youre a superchamp playing against very good players; its possible. No, a top tier no excuses defender list.

Come all ye takers.

As you mentioned, juggler's analysis paints the defender as a strictly inferior ship (it is, statistically) and I don't think Rexy is the pilot to help alleviate that problem :P

Imo, his inflated cost and situational ability (that focus could have been used to get more damage instead of flipping crits) only exacerbate the Defender's stats imbalance.

On the other hand, I have found the Defenders to be unparalleled ion cannon platforms (holy **** does the white k turn start to come into its own) especially when the shorter k on the Rebel's parallel (B-wings) is not nearly as abusable, and guess who hates ion cannons...(the answer is...everyone :lol: )

But apart from that and Vessery's admittedly awesome (if properly built around) ability, I really cannot comprehend why the Delta costs more than the Sigma (or the same as an FCS + Stygium + Int Agent Sigma)

Oh well, at least I've found a very good home for ion Deltas (courtesy of the good baron) and that's far more than I can say for the poor Knave...

I love Brath, I generaly do ok with him. But that's due to ps 8. I can't remember ever getting to use his ability. Lol.

Even with predator I find you need to burn the focus to get the hits in the first place.

One day I will get to use it though:)

I love Brath, I generaly do ok with him. But that's due to ps 8. I can't remember ever getting to use his ability. Lol.

Even with predator I find you need to burn the focus to get the hits in the first place.

One day I will get to use it though:)

One would think that Fleet Officer would have been the natural solution (PS 8 being a bit of a pain in the ass to Squad Lead, since not even poor Howl can do it)

Hasn't really worked out for my friend who tried it out with a Patrol Leader. Rex is such a hog that it's hard to fit him and a support ship in a list.

There's also PTL if you ever wondered what it's like to play a version of pac-man where there's no maze, just one long hallway

Edited by ficklegreendice

somebody make the pic happen.

--

The challenge still remains: Make a defender list that is tip top tier. Not kinda top tier. Not if youre a superchamp playing against very good players; its possible. No, a top tier no excuses defender list.

Come all ye takers.

I played this list a LOT and against all the currently top list and only lost once. It will never be considered a top tier list because well, let's face it I'm just another guy on the internet and will never go to worlds, but it won against Fat Han, Decimators and Phantoms, Dash and Corran, Panic attack (the hardest counter), swarms... it got a bit of everything, and will only get better once Autothrusters become legal.

Vessery + VI

Soontir + PtL + TC (Autothrusters once legal)

Scimitar Squadron

Scimitar squadron

Now, if only I was a better player with more time to invest in the game....

Regarding the OP test.

To be fair, if Whisper had either a Rebel Captive (I see it a lot) or a Gunner (not that often, but it happens, it let's Whisper concentrate on defense with Barrel Roll or Evade), the results would have been different.

Defenders are nice, and I'm probably one of the few members who actually don't think that they are overcost, but in a 1 on 1 battle, Whisper is a VERY hard ship to beat. It's doable, but my money will always be on her. It's like comparing Soontir to Keyan. Both are really nice! But Soontir will win a 1vs1 duel most of the time.