What is the difference in efficiency between a vanilla Bandit Squadron Z-95 and a Green Squadron A-Wing with Chaardan Refit and Push the Limit? I know the Bandit is one of the most efficient filler ships in the game, but does the increased maneuverability and action economy of the Green make it a more even contender?

A friend and I had this discussion tonight, specifically fitting 3x Bandits as filler in a list compared to 2x PtL/Chaardan Greens, and couldn't come to a consensus. My gut instinct is that the Bandit is still better, but the Green would be a lot more fun to fly. Anyone done the math?

Doing "the math" on the dial is inherently fuzzy. In general, if all you look at are the stats and action economy, then the Bandits should win out. But PtL boost is a big deal, especially when you have so many greens on the A-wing dial.

Yeah I know it is difficult to quantify the value of the dial, but have you done a raw jousting value for a PtL Green? Or anyone else for that matter. I assume it will be more survivable, but is it that much more than 2 PtL Greens become better than 3 Bandits?

[Edited for spelling, need more coffee this morning...]

The sticky topic has a link to MajorJuggler's mathwinging, albeit without PtL, but enough to go on I should think.

In the end the question, however, still is: what do you like to fly more. Will you have more fun flying a pair of A's or a trio of Z's?

The sticky topic has a link to MajorJuggler's mathwinging, albeit without PtL, but enough to go on I should think.

In the end the question, however, still is: what do you like to fly more. Will you have more fun flying a pair of A's or a trio of Z's?

I've read over MJ's mathwinging thread (love it actually), which is one of the things that spawned this debate with my friend and I. In the straight jousting values and efficiency the Bandit has the Green Squadron beat pretty heavily, but Push the Limit should considerably change things. The question is, how considerably?

Personally, I prefer the two Greens with PtL, but that's because I think A-Wings are some of the most fun ships to fly in the game. This leads me to lean towards using them. This is more of a theoretical discussion though. My thoughts have always been that the mathwinging numbers are a solid basis for interpretation, but they don't tell the whole story of the ships.

My thoughts have always been that the mathwinging numbers are a solid basis for interpretation, but they don't tell the whole story of the ships.

The problem is that this particular question is located deep within the story mathwing can't tell. How often will having two actions on an A-wing dial allow you to slip out of your opponent's firing arcs without losing your ability to modify your attack dice? How much better does the ability to boost and focus improve your range control over focus alone? How flexible are you at the table, and how good are you at planning ahead?

Your question is a good one, but it's not really a mathwing question.

Is the Bandit really that efficient of a ship?

I love the bugger to death, but when set against the inevitable turrets or phantoms I've found Tie Fighters far more likely to pull many times their weight. That might be more of a dial/action distinction, though.

Is the Bandit really that efficient of a ship?

Yes. There's less variance in its performance, which can be good or bad, but it's just as efficient as a TIE fighter.

My thoughts have always been that the mathwinging numbers are a solid basis for interpretation, but they don't tell the whole story of the ships.

The problem is that this particular question is located deep within the story mathwing can't tell. How often will having two actions on an A-wing dial allow you to slip out of your opponent's firing arcs without losing your ability to modify your attack dice? How much better does the ability to boost and focus improve your range control over focus alone? How flexible are you at the table, and how good are you at planning ahead?

Your question is a good one, but it's not really a mathwing question.

That's definitely a fair point. So in that case lets open this up further, does anyone have experience running PtL A-Wings vs Z-95s? What are people's experiences with the two ships? Given you have 38-40 points left over in a list which would you prefer to take, 2x PtL Greens or 3x Bandits?

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion, I've been trying to figure out if the 15 point Prototype A-Wing is better or the 12 point Bandit... for 3 points, you get:

- 1 lower PS (to block)

- boost, evade actions

- 8 greens on the dial and the 5 straight

- 3 agility

Sounds like a pretty good deal, considering stealth device on a Z alone is 3 points, and boost/evade actions are also very coveted. Thoughts?

The simplest (and not entirely correct) way to evaluate PtL on an A-wing would be to simply give it a free TL for every shot, simulating the 2nd action. I have 2 base dice with a free TL (in addition to 75% chance of focus on offense) as being 1.43x as much damage on average as 2 base dice. That brings the jousting value up from 14.07 to 17.13.

The PS1 ship costs 15 points, so has a jousting efficiency of 14.07/15 = 93.8%

For the PS3 Green, once the EPT slot is consumed you can't factor it into the PS1 equivalent cost. So its PS1 cost is only affected by its 2 PS increase. The PS3 ship with PtL costs 20 points, with a PS1 equivalent cost (by my method) of 20/(1 + 2/24) = 18.46. That gives it an efficiency of 17.13/18.46 = 92.8%.

So technically the PtL Green has a slightly lower jousting efficiency than the PS1, even accounting for the +2PS. However PtL will be more versatile than simply taking an extra TL, especially to boost + barrel roll out of arc vs PS1-PS2, which is not baked into these numbers.

So technically the PtL Green has a slightly lower jousting efficiency than the PS1, even accounting for the +2PS. However PtL will be more versatile than simply taking an extra TL, especially to boost + barrel roll out of arc vs PS1-PS2, which is not baked into these numbers.

You also forgot the option to Focus + Evade; a substantive boost to survivability, which would improve their jousting numbers even more.

Also, Greens don't have a Barrel-Roll.

So technically the PtL Green has a slightly lower jousting efficiency than the PS1, even accounting for the +2PS. However PtL will be more versatile than simply taking an extra TL, especially to boost + barrel roll out of arc vs PS1-PS2, which is not baked into these numbers.

You also forgot the option to Focus + Evade; a substantive boost to survivability, which would improve their jousting numbers even more.

Also, Greens don't have a Barrel-Roll.

Oops yeah, no barrel roll. But in principle, PtL is more versatile (and therefore more valuable) than merely adding a free TL to every attack, so the above numbers for a PtL Green are slightly pessimistic.