I was in the tournament Crabbok is talking about. It wasn't X-Wing, but it was a game that does require you to assemble a deck beforehand. And believe it or not, the officially posted tournament rules for this game make no mention of having to use the same deck throughout the tournament. Maybe because they assume it's such a common sense thing, they don't have to spell it out, but all the rules say is players must bring "any materials specifically required for a particular tournament format, such as assembled decks and/or deck lists." Someone actually had a printed copy of these rules, and was so sure this was stipulated, he was shocked to find it wasn't. So I didn't feel comfortable dropping the hammer on this guy and completely ousting him from the tournament. Jo-Jo beat me with his legal deck in the third round -- rather soundly too, and it was my sole loss on the day -- and while we were trying to figure out how to break three-way tie, some wanted Jo-Jo ousted altogether, some wanted to just move on. It was my suggestion to reduce him to third, on the basis that his legal deck won both games it played, and his illegal deck lost. No real competitive advantage was gained, but there had to be some kind of consequence. Not being able to play for the championship seemed to be the simplest solution.

I guess the main takeaway here is never assuming anything is a given, whether you're a TO or a player.

...the officially posted tournament rules for this game make no mention of having to use the same deck throughout the tournament. Maybe because they assume it's such a common sense thing, they don't have to spell it out, but all the rules say is players must bring "any materials specifically required for a particular tournament format, such as assembled decks and/or deck lists."

That's genuinely weird. But if that's the case, it actually seems like Jo Jo wasn't doing anything illegal at all...

The good news: it's unlikely to happen in X-wing! But we should make sure it doesn't, just in case! Because it's a rough spot for everyone to be in, I think.

Crabbok, you're saying this wasn't even an X-Wing tournament?

So it's a pointless thought exercise. This sort of thing is why you're on my ignore list, and I won't make the mistake of lifting the veil again.

This sort of thing is why you're on my ignore list, and I won't make the mistake of lifting the veil again.

Ugh.

This is an interesting question about small tournaments and appropriately responding to players that inadvertently violate critical rules, which can and I am sure has happened in X-Wing.

Why do people feel so compelled to share who they have on their ignore list? It is wonderful that you feel like you are superior to him/her when it comes to posting on the FFG X-Wing forum - you might even be right. But, no one cares. Keep it to yourself.

Well to be honest, this story doesn't work in the context of X-wing simply because there ARE well-defined rules for X-wing.

From what Crabbok and DailyRich describe, JoJo did absolutely nothing wrong at all and he was bullied out of the final round.

Let's just get this straight - there is no such thing as common sense rules. It's either a strictly defined rule, or its not. Players will always look for a way to maximise their chances of winning (can you blame them?) and if the rules have a gap that can be exploited then its not illegal until its made illegal.

The point Crabbok is making is double moot since JoJos deck wasn't even a counter. It just sounds like he brought two decks and wanted to see how each would perform in a competitive environment. It's not like he had an ace up his sleeve.

Should Jo-Jo have been completely DQ'd from the entire day?

Should the tournament rules have been posted?

Yes to these.

At the very least the TO should post a link to the current Tournament rules in the event description.

If this was X-Wing...

I find I agree that while he did something wrong, it's not fair to assume everyone knows about the tournament rules in the first place.

Most people who have been gamers for long know about them because pretty much every game has them, but there's people out there who's idea of a game is Monopoly, and for those people assumptions of common knowledge goes out the window.

At my LGS everyone who's involved in the league I run knows the rules, but even then I stated in the league doc that we'd play by the competitive/tournament rules.

So I agree with Vorpal above, that it's a good idea to post a link or something to the tournament PDF so everyone involved has access to it. If someone doesn't bother to read it after being informed, then you can fairly say that the the ignorance of the rules is no defense. Because they've been made aware of them. But again you shouldn't assume they're aware of them in the first place.

As to what really happened. It just so happens that jo-jo won fairly, and shouldn't of been knocked to 3rd place. If the rules don't actually state you need to use the same deck for every round, then you don't need to use the same deck. That may be what everyone assumed, and maybe the person who wrote those rules forgot to put it in because they too assumed everyone knew it.

But you can't play based on what you assume the rules are, you can only fairly play based on what the rules actually are.

Was.Not.X-wing.

go post this story on the relevant game board...at least we should get it moved to the off topic board.

you just had many players trying to help you resolve a situation that didn't happen...very poor of you.

all of this begins and ends with the T.O. he has the responsibilty for checking evryone's list before the tourney starts and exercising judgement in the administration of the rules.

Jo-Jo got a pretty good smack down already, he was forced to take third when he might have competed for second or first.

So now he nows, there was a penalty for his error, he was not operating in malice or attempting to cheat, apparently.

Seems like a square deal to me, maybe the 3 losers need to grow up. If they are going to be mad at someone, let them take it up with the T.O.

that is where the buck stops.

I don't understand the negativity from a couple of the posters here. From what crabbok said, it sounds like it was xwing, and just the names were changed, but in any case, if you have nothing to contribute, why do you come on here and troll?

If you have him on your ignore list, why are you coming on a thread he started ?

To troll and complain, that's why. Grow up. that is all.

This sort of thing is why you're on my ignore list, and I won't make the mistake of lifting the veil again.

Ugh.

This is an interesting question about small tournaments and appropriately responding to players that inadvertently violate critical rules, which can and I am sure has happened in X-Wing.

Why do people feel so compelled to share who they have on their ignore list? It is wonderful that you feel like you are superior to him/her when it comes to posting on the FFG X-Wing forum - you might even be right. But, no one cares. Keep it to yourself.

this was a waste of everyone's time. All the answers and research into X-wing that people did to help the OP are useless because he comes back with "well this wasn't an X-wing tournament and your answers don't apply but I won't tell you why"

should the OP not realize there are consequences to his actions?

should the OP not realize there are consequences to his actions?

It's a fair question to ask and discuss even though it wasn't X-Wing, because the same thing could quite easily happen at a X-Wing tournament. So the discussion is useful, because the issue of if you should or should not assume common knowledge is always useful for a community like this to discuss and keep in mind.

Plus it's a post on a message board, no one was harmed, no puppies were kicked, no candy taken from babies.

Every tournament that I go to, even casual ones, has us fill out a sheet with our squad list and hand it over to the Tournament Organiser. It sounds to me like this could have solved the entire issue.

The 2nd round could have been forfeit, but since both players were in agreement to continue, that it seemed to be an honest mistake and that some things over the tournamenet itself could have been done better then it seems fair to accept it and move along. We're talking about pieces of plastic here; it's not worth getting "that" upset over.

"It's a fair question to ask and discuss even though it wasn't X-Wing,"

except the OP intentionally mislead people by saying it was an X-wing tournament.

A discussion about "common knowledge" would be fine...this is about a player (who is talked about as "slow" or "handicapped")

violating rules in x-wing...rules that don't exist in the real game that the OP is discussing.

waste.of.time.

waste.of.time.

You have (at least) three options, here:

• You can treat it as a hypothetical case, and contribute to a constructive conversation that's relevant to X-wing.
• You can ignore it and let other people get on with that constructive conversation.
• You can actively interfere in that constructive conversation.

Can you please move from the latter option to one of the others?

Hidatom is right, though. The OP was misleading. I understand not naming the individuals involved, but changing the game itself changes the whole discussion. The question in the OP refers to a cheater, however I fail to see how this individual cheated at all based on the rules of the game they actually played, not X-wing.

The guy did not break any rule for the game he was playing and IMO he was treated unfairly. Now if it actually were X-wing then I would say he broke the rules unintentionally, but should still have been made to forfeit that one match.

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV7oFDeZUak8A.SUnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTEzamFkOTJqBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x/RV=2/RE=1424391557/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wizards.com%2fContentResources%2fWizards%2fWPN%2fMain%2fDocuments%2fMagic_The_Gathering_Tournament_Rules_PDF1.pdf/RK=0/RS=uSlGQmUhUQbTRNvjtrfQMEAMNJA-

That link goes to the Official Rules for Magic The Gathering Tournaments. It is a 49pg document outlining all the various rules for participating in an MTG event from a Casual FNM to a Pro-Tour event.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=174&esem=4

There is 4 pages in the tournament rules for X-Wing.

By going to the DCI page you can find clear defined penalties for violating any of the rules at all levels of events found here http://www.wizards.com/DCI/judge/main.asp?x=judge/MTG_DCI_Judge_Penalty

Now by no means do I think X-Wing needs such details for their events. However by clearly stating what the rules are and the appropriate penalty for the event level it makes it easier to handle such problems as the OP has explained. No TO wants to inflict a penalty to a player but needs to when the time calls for it. The benefit of having clearly defined rules and penalties you can expect the same experience at any event you attend.

"You can actively interfere in that constructive conversation."

its NOT constructive...people were still researching and responding to the first post After the OP was outed as lying. these responses have no point now...thus they are wasting their time due to the OPs misleading request for help.
To discuss the actual issue you should go to a relevant message board since it is not about X-wing (or any FFG game for that matter).

but changing the game itself changes the whole discussion.

Only if you're tied up in the details and not the larger issue.

The larger issue being how much common knowledge is reasonable to assume?

its NOT constructive...

Yes it is, but your posts are clearly not, so if it bothers you that much simply stop posting here or else we'll start getting the mod's involved.

people were still researching and responding to the first post After the OP was outed as lying.

The OP was not lying, he was giving us an example of something and putting in terms that make sense to the people who post on these boards.

"You can actively interfere in that constructive conversation."

its NOT constructive...people were still researching and responding to the first post After the OP was outed as lying. these responses have no point now...thus they are wasting their time due to the OPs misleading request for help.

To discuss the actual issue you should go to a relevant message board since it is not about X-wing (or any FFG game for that matter).

You have properly derailed what could have been a good discussion. For now on we should all be mindful to not reply to post that have the "What If" clause as it's not real world.

OP was lying:

"How do you handle a cheater in a tournament when it was an honest mistake?

So there I am, in a small X-Wing tournament. Only 6 of us are playing."

the only truth in these three statements is that 6 people were playing something.

I am not derailing a good discussion I AM informing people that the discussion is based on a false statement that should not be used as an example of the "good discussion". This is not a "what if" situation...the OP was very clear that the event happened and he would like feedback on how to stop it from happening again.

"

So we have a 3-way tie for the lead, and Jo-Jo is one of the three. After some discussion we all agree that Jo-Jo will bow out of the top 3, so the remaining 2 can battle for victory. Turns out there is a 3rd place prize though, so Jo-Jo still ends up winning something. Nothing huge, but some people are kinda angry at the way it all worked out.

Should Jo-Jo had to forfeit the match?

Should Jo-Jo have been completely DQ'd from the entire day?

Should the tournament rules have been posted?

Or was it Jo-Jo's responsibility to google tournament rules for FFG games before walking into the store that day?

I argued that he should just have forfeit'd the round, but still been allowed to play the rest of the day, but some others thought he should have been completely DQ'd for the entire tournament. I understand that logic, but this was a paid tournament with prize support, and I personally would have felt really bad for someone who pays to play in a tournament and ends up getting thrown out over an honest mistake. "

"How do you handle a cheater in a tournament when it was an honest mistake?

That statement is not a lie, and it is the subject for a good discussion. What you are doing however is trolling and have been reported for doing such. This can be a productive discussion if you set aside the real situation and discuss it for the larger issue the OP brought up.

There are going to be a number of cases where someone makes a honest mistake, but doing so is a clear violation of the rules.

The issue becomes what do you do with someone who inadvertently breaks the rules? How much should you penalize someone for not following a rule if they honestly didn't know the rules? Should you in fact simply expect that everyone knows the rules?

For competitive games like Store Championship and beyond it's stated in the rules that you should assume such a thing. But since this wasn't one of those, then there is no reason to make that assumption. Plus the TO really should make a point of double checking that everyone actually does know what the rules in place are.

OP was lying:

The emphasis is mine. Does it count as a lie when you tell someone that it is not true before you say it?

Something I get a kick out of is having six people and declaring that enough for a tournament. If there are just going to be three rounds it works about as a single elimination where you should have some seeding involved. If there needs to be a championship round 4 game then why not have everyone playing that round.