The irony is that somebody dropping a scripture bomb is pretty doing exactly what the verse says to not do.

inb4 this thread is locked.

They typically release updated FAQ and Tournament Rules shortly after a new set is released. I have full faith that they understand the need for the update if they intend for Scum to be used in Store Championships. They do pay attention to what we talk about on the internet even if they don't typically post themselves.

Zz Top 36:22:36

OT: I want them to include a verdict on this whole segmented movement templates thing, just to shut people up about it.

Matthew 6:5

For those who don't want to use Google:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

A better modern translation for "Hypocrites" here might be "D-Bags".

Zz Top 36:22:36

OT: I want them to include a verdict on this whole segmented movement templates thing, just to shut people up about it.

Reel 2 Dialogue 2

OT: I also would like to see updated rules/faqs.

I totally agree with the OP

Zz Top 36:22:36

OT: I want them to include a verdict on this whole segmented movement templates thing, just to shut people up about it.

Actually I DON'T want them to, because it will nullify almost every acrylic template I own or actually like. No one in person has ever raised any complaints about the templates, but the rule already exists since it’s up to an opponent to allow use of 3^rd party templates. If someone is really concerned they can disallow the use of the templates.

On a side note I still think the segmented movement argument is lunacy from people who don’t actually play the game very often. As soon as you have played a good number of games you learn the distances and the idea you need to “cheat by premeasuring by moving a different ship” is insane.

I have more of a problem with people cheating by acquiring target locks so they can take the range ruler and test the ranges of other ships by eyeballing it over the table while they measure for target lock with a different ship. This is especially shady when it’s clear the target lock was going to be impossible!! Grrrrrr!

Now off my soap box. Fly casual!

According to fantasy flight as soon as the product is available in stores it is tournament legal so you can legally play scum. As far as debris fields thats cool and all but i'd like to see them make epic ships as obsticals tournament legal just because thats the only time i use mine.

Yes, all scum cards will become tournament legal on release in the US.... for you to use as part of a Rebel or Imperial faction.

Once they update the tournament rules, then you can use the scum cards too.

According to fantasy flight as soon as the product is available in stores it is tournament legal so you can legally play scum. As far as debris fields thats cool and all but i'd like to see them make epic ships as obsticals tournament legal just because thats the only time i use mine.

Yes, all scum cards will become tournament legal on release in the US.... for you to use as part of a Rebel or Imperial faction.

Once they update the tournament rules, then you can use the scum cards too.

In context, it's clear that the section of the rules you're referring to is permissive, rather than restrictive: it says, essentially, that the sanctioned tournament structure doesn't care what faction you pick, so you should feel free to bring any of the game's factions.

I feel very strongly that what you've outlined here is a misreading of the rules. I probably wouldn't storm out of a sanctioned tournament--frankly, there just aren't enough nearby for me to burn that bridge--but I certainly won't be going back to a store where the TO is a martinet that privileges an overly literal reading of the rules rather than their clear intent.

According to fantasy flight as soon as the product is available in stores it is tournament legal so you can legally play scum. As far as debris fields thats cool and all but i'd like to see them make epic ships as obsticals tournament legal just because thats the only time i use mine.

Yes, all scum cards will become tournament legal on release in the US.... for you to use as part of a Rebel or Imperial faction.

Once they update the tournament rules, then you can use the scum cards too.

In context, it's clear that the section of the rules you're referring to is permissive, rather than restrictive: it says, essentially, that the sanctioned tournament structure doesn't care what faction you pick, so you should feel free to bring any of the game's factions.

I feel very strongly that what you've outlined here is a misreading of the rules. I probably wouldn't storm out of a sanctioned tournament--frankly, there just aren't enough nearby for me to burn that bridge--but I certainly won't be going back to a store where the TO is a martinet that privileges an overly literal reading of the rules rather than their clear intent.

No, that's reading the rules perfectly as written. What you are doing is trying to add unwritten context so as you void the rule as written.

According to fantasy flight as soon as the product is available in stores it is tournament legal so you can legally play scum. As far as debris fields thats cool and all but i'd like to see them make epic ships as obsticals tournament legal just because thats the only time i use mine.

Yes, all scum cards will become tournament legal on release in the US.... for you to use as part of a Rebel or Imperial faction.

Once they update the tournament rules, then you can use the scum cards too.

In context, it's clear that the section of the rules you're referring to is permissive, rather than restrictive: it says, essentially, that the sanctioned tournament structure doesn't care what faction you pick, so you should feel free to bring any of the game's factions.

I feel very strongly that what you've outlined here is a misreading of the rules. I probably wouldn't storm out of a sanctioned tournament--frankly, there just aren't enough nearby for me to burn that bridge--but I certainly won't be going back to a store where the TO is a martinet that privileges an overly literal reading of the rules rather than their clear intent.

No, that's reading the rules perfectly as written. What you are doing is trying to add unwritten context so as you void the rule as written.

I'm very carefully maintaining my patience, here, but the context I'm referring to is definitely written. The actual passage says this:

Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player’s faction.

People who think Scum & Villainy will be illegal are focusing on the first clause, and completely ignoring the second clause. This rule doesn't say "You can only field a Rebel or Imperial squad", but rather "tournament seeding doesn't care about your faction".

People who think Scum & Villainy are also completely ignoring the rule that says this:

All Star Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game components are legal for sanctioned play unless they are marked with the epic icon.

Note that doesn't say "All components that can be legally fielded in a Rebel or Imperial squad"; it says "all components". That includes ships, and accordingly my Scum ships will be perfectly legal for tournament play the moment I have them in my hands.

According to fantasy flight as soon as the product is available in stores it is tournament legal so you can legally play scum. As far as debris fields thats cool and all but i'd like to see them make epic ships as obsticals tournament legal just because thats the only time i use mine.

Yes, all scum cards will become tournament legal on release in the US.... for you to use as part of a Rebel or Imperial faction.

Once they update the tournament rules, then you can use the scum cards too.

In context, it's clear that the section of the rules you're referring to is permissive, rather than restrictive: it says, essentially, that the sanctioned tournament structure doesn't care what faction you pick, so you should feel free to bring any of the game's factions.

I feel very strongly that what you've outlined here is a misreading of the rules. I probably wouldn't storm out of a sanctioned tournament--frankly, there just aren't enough nearby for me to burn that bridge--but I certainly won't be going back to a store where the TO is a martinet that privileges an overly literal reading of the rules rather than their clear intent.

No, that's reading the rules perfectly as written. What you are doing is trying to add unwritten context so as you void the rule as written.

I'm very carefully maintaining my patience, here, but the context I'm referring to is definitely written. The actual passage says this:

Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player’s faction.

People who think Scum & Villainy will be illegal are focusing on the first clause, and completely ignoring the second clause. This rule doesn't say "You can only field a Rebel or Imperial squad", but rather "tournament seeding doesn't care about your faction".

People who think Scum & Villainy are also completely ignoring the rule that says this:

All Star Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game components are legal for sanctioned play unless they are marked with the epic icon.

Note that doesn't say "All components that can be legally fielded in a Rebel or Imperial squad"; it says "all components". That includes ships, and accordingly my Scum ships will be perfectly legal for tournament play the moment I have them in my hands.

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad(players choice between Rebel or Imperial....NOT SCUM), as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction(meaning that mirror matches, Rebel vs Rebel or Imperial vs Imperial are legal)".

"All components are legal for sanctioned play", so why is it pretty much fully agreed that Debris Fields are illegal for Tournament play then if they are legal components? Why? Because the "all components are legal" is superseded by the fact that the Tournament Rules strictly says Asteroids.

I could care less about your patience, and I for one could care less if someone plays Scum, I'm simply playing Devils Advocate because it is something that needs to be addressed and fixed.

I actually think the problem with people's interpretation is the comma that shouldn't be there. It makes it appear the second part of the sentence is superfluous to the meaning, but it's not. You could, in fact, reorganize it to put the dependent clause at the front (you then would need a comma) but it would make the meaning of the sentence more clear which is the relationship between faction and seeding, not which factions are playable.

I'm very carefully maintaining my patience, here, but the context I'm referring to is definitely written. The actual passage says this:

Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player’s faction.

People who think Scum & Villainy will be illegal are focusing on the first clause, and completely ignoring the second clause. This rule doesn't say "You can only field a Rebel or Imperial squad", but rather "tournament seeding doesn't care about your faction".

People who think Scum & Villainy are also completely ignoring the rule that says this:

All Star Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game components are legal for sanctioned play unless they are marked with the epic icon.

Note that doesn't say "All components that can be legally fielded in a Rebel or Imperial squad"; it says "all components". That includes ships, and accordingly my Scum ships will be perfectly legal for tournament play the moment I have them in my hands.

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad(players choice between Rebel or Imperial....NOT SCUM), as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction(meaning that mirror matches, Rebel vs Rebel or Imperial vs Imperial are legal)".

You're still ignoring the second clause. This is very obviously not a rule excluding components from the game.

"All components are legal for sanctioned play", so why is it pretty much fully agreed that Debris Fields are illegal for Tournament play then if they are legal components? Why? Because the "all components are legal" is superseded by the fact that the Tournament Rules strictly says Asteroids

There's a long and detailed passage indicating how you set up the field of play using asteroids. It specifically directs players to use the "six unique asteroid tokens from the core set". That is not even remotely the same as twisting a passage that says "you can play any faction you want" into a rule that says "you can't play Scum".

I could care less about your patience and I for one could care less if someone plays Scum, I'm simply playing Devils Advocate because it is something that needs to be addressed and fixed.

I understand that position. I'm in sympathy with that position. In fact, I've already reached out to FFG asking them to pretty please resolve this no later than the expected street date for Scum.

But in this case, in order to arrive at the devil's-advocate position, you have to completely invert the meaning of a set of rules, and that's a fool's errand.

You're still ignoring the second clause. This is very obviously not a rule excluding components from the game.

"All components are legal for sanctioned play", so why is it pretty much fully agreed that Debris Fields are illegal for Tournament play then if they are legal components? Why? Because the "all components are legal" is superseded by the fact that the Tournament Rules strictly says Asteroids

There's a long and detailed passage indicating how you set up the field of play using asteroids. It specifically directs players to use the "six unique asteroid tokens from the core set". That is not even remotely the same as twisting a passage that says "you can play any faction you want" into a rule that says "you can't play Scum".

I could care less about your patience and I for one could care less if someone plays Scum, I'm simply playing Devils Advocate because it is something that needs to be addressed and fixed.

I understand that position. I'm in sympathy with that position. In fact, I've already reached out to FFG asking them to pretty please resolve this no later than the expected street date for Scum.

But in this case, in order to arrive at the devil's-advocate position, you have to completely invert the meaning of a set of rules, and that's a fool's errand.

Let me try to explain this clearly, If we agree that because the passage about using Asteroids supersedes the passage that all components are legal, then it's fair to say that the passage that says each player must choose either a Rebel or Imperial squad supersedes the same passage about all components being legal. You can't have one without the other.

As for the second clause, like I said, that implies that mirror matches are legal between squads, Rebel vs Rebel, Imperial vs Imperial. It does not say "Scum is legal" or else if what you're saying that it says I can field any faction I want, where does it say I can't make up a mixed squad of the best from all 3 factions?

So from my understanding of reading, and re-reading everything, the Tournament rules says that they supersede the core rules for squad building, and you have to field either an imperial or rebel squad, because the core rules don't say anything about sticking to one faction in the squad building section, but in their writing, they unintentionally, made Scum illegal.

I think some people are reading far too much into the literal meaning of the rules. Keep in mind that all of the rules that you are referencing came way before S&V was even a thought ...

It seems a stretch to believe that those same rules would take into account the legality or illegality of S&V.

We sure do have some wonderful lawyers participating on this forum !

I think some people are reading far too much into the literal meaning of the rules. Keep in mind that all of the rules that you are referencing came way before S&V was even a thought ...

It seems a stretch to believe that those same rules would take into account the legality of illegality of S&V.

We sure do have some wonderful lawyers participating on this forum !

Well actually the last rule update was October, and was updated with the YT-2400 and Deci being specifically made illegal. and S&V was definitely on the radar at that point.

Rockpockalypse Said:

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction".

Perhaps you should take your own advise, it clearly states that each player MAY choose to field Rebel or Imperial. Clearly playing Imps or rebels is OPTIONAL.

I choose not to field Imperial or Rebel.

And seeing as S & V is a FFG official X-Wing game component legal in standard play, I CHOOSE to play S&V.

Ya...you left out the key word being "EITHER".

But nice try

Rockpockalypse Said:

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction".

Perhaps you should take your own advise, it clearly states that each player MAY choose to field Rebel or Imperial. Clearly playing Imps or rebels is OPTIONAL.

I choose not to field Imperial or Rebel.

And seeing as S & V is a FFG official X-Wing game component legal in standard play, I CHOOSE to play S&V.

Ya...you left out the key word being "EITHER".

But nice try

true I did leave out the either, though it makes no difference, the MAY clearly denotes an option that allows you to choose something other than the 2 suggested factions. it does not in any way say you MUST select either Rebels or Imps.

previously had you entered a tournament you still technically had the option of not playing Rebel or Imp, but because there were no other legal sanctioned factions to play it would have been a bit pointless.

now with a new legal sanctioned faction other than Rebels and imps you have a legitimate 3rd choice.

In the end this really is semantics and undoubtedly the Tournament rules will be updated in due course but don't try and sound all high and mighty stating RAW when, as I have just pointed out, technically the RAW don't force you to select either Rebel or Imperial.

Rockpockalypse Said:

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction".

Perhaps you should take your own advise, it clearly states that each player MAY choose to field Rebel or Imperial. Clearly playing Imps or rebels is OPTIONAL.

I choose not to field Imperial or Rebel.

And seeing as S & V is a FFG official X-Wing game component legal in standard play, I CHOOSE to play S&V.

Ya...you left out the key word being "EITHER".

But nice try

true I did leave out the either, though it makes no difference, the MAY clearly denotes an option that allows you to choose something other than the 2 suggested factions.

previously had you entered a tournament you still technically had the option of not playing Rebel or Imp, but because there were no other legal sanctioned factions to play it would have been a bit pointless.

now with a new legal sanctioned faction other than Rebels and imps you have a legitimate 3rd choice.

In the end this really is semantics and undoubtedly the Tournament rules will be updated in due course but don't try and sound all high and mighty stating RAW when, as I have just pointed out, technically the RAW don't force you to select either Rebel or Imperial.

No, the either makes all the difference. You may field "Either" a Rebel, or an Imperial squad. One or the other. No third option or neither. You pick A, or you pick B. Those are you your options, as written.

Rockpockalypse Said:

So read those carefully, "Each player may choose to field either a Rebel or Imperial squad, as tournament seeding ignores the player's faction".

Perhaps you should take your own advise, it clearly states that each player MAY choose to field Rebel or Imperial. Clearly playing Imps or rebels is OPTIONAL.

I choose not to field Imperial or Rebel.

And seeing as S & V is a FFG official X-Wing game component legal in standard play, I CHOOSE to play S&V.

Ya...you left out the key word being "EITHER".

But nice try

true I did leave out the either, though it makes no difference, the MAY clearly denotes an option that allows you to choose something other than the 2 suggested factions.

previously had you entered a tournament you still technically had the option of not playing Rebel or Imp, but because there were no other legal sanctioned factions to play it would have been a bit pointless.

now with a new legal sanctioned faction other than Rebels and imps you have a legitimate 3rd choice.

In the end this really is semantics and undoubtedly the Tournament rules will be updated in due course but don't try and sound all high and mighty stating RAW when, as I have just pointed out, technically the RAW don't force you to select either Rebel or Imperial.

No, the either makes all the difference. You may field "Either" a Rebel, or an Imperial squad. One or the other. No third option or neither. You pick A, or you pick B. Those are you your options, as written.

I'm just going to leave this grammar lesson here, you MAY actually learn something but I have no time for people arguing the fundamentals of the English language when they don't understand the meaning of a simple 3 letter word:

may

v. a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall" which makes it imperative.

the rules don't say "Shall" they say "May"

Edit:

I have overstepped the mark on this one and apologize to anyone whom I have offended.

Gentleman it seems until something is released by FFG that we will have to apply little common sense. Setting language interpretations aside. First FFG is not going to design something that is not tournament ready when released. So just because they have not posted that the 3rd faction is specifically available might not apply. Give FFG credit for testing the materials before release as being ready. FFGs concern is, if we look at many of the previous releases is that the release is in the general publics hands before being used in tournaments. That is where they leave it up to the TO. If the tournament is being run in a location(store) in which the product is in general release then it would seem that the TO could rule that it is legal, since it is available to all the players to purchase and use. Now if run at a location where it is not generally available then the TO could rule that it is not eligible for use. This would apply best to local store tournaments where most of the players are local and will usually all have the same opportunities. If a regional or larger then it is more difficult as such a large geographical area might lead to problems. Debris counters are possibly different. They would seem to be legal, but how they are to be used is the question. Will they replace some of the asteroids, or all of the asteroids, or will they be in addition to asteroids. So will you have 6 debris counters, or 6 asteroid counters, or 3 of each or maybe even 6 of each. If I missed something above that references anything I have posted here and not included it please forgive that oversight. Just trying to find a road that will give everyone an opportunity to use the materials at hand.

Updated FAQ is updated FAQ for a reason, they will modify the current rules to allow S&V after store championships are done..

I saw a post earlier, if S&V is released during the championships and the rules are not updated it is not legal for the store owner to allow S&V at the event. FFG is cracking down on tournaments that aren't being run properly.