With Gencon less than two months away, I wanted to ask a few questions, provoke some discussion, propose some scenarios and see what people think specifically regarding what to do in certain situations. I don’t necessarily consider there to be right and wrong answers to each of these questions (although I might feel very strongly one way or the other on some.)

All of these questions and scenarios are assumed to be in relation to the LCG Joust or Melee championships.

Question 1:

It is the first game of Swiss pairings of the Joust Championships. Your opponent plays a House Tully Recruiter. He is using the Westeros Premium Starter version instead of the new Core Set version because he believes it is a reprint. You however know differently, that the Core set version specifies a Stark character to reduce its cost, while the old version does not, therefore it is not a direct reprint and the old version is thus illegal.

Would you:
A) Immediately call the TO and ask for a disqualification?
B) Immediately call the TO and ask for him to resolve it?
C) Bring it up to your opponent and try to resolve it “in game”?
D) Ignore it because it doesn’t affect your game?

As a follow up question:

Lets say you choose B) and you call the TO over. Your opponent assures you and the TO that he has the Core set version in another deck and just forgot to switch sleeves and can do it in less than a minute. What should the TO do? What should you do if the TO gives mercy and leaves the final decision up to you?

B. Replace the card move on. If he cant produce a copy of the card, it depends on what FFG's tournament policy is. Additionally, the people running the tournament should be reviewing decks for illegal or reprinted cards with different text during deck registration.

I would bring it up in game and try to resolve it by switching versions. I know its a tournament and all, but I want to win because I earned it, not at any cost. I play to have fun, not to be a jerk.

If he has a CoreSet copy I would let him switch it. I would leave the decision on TO not the player, since if the first player allowes something the other players might not and there would be more and more unpleasant situations.

If he has not the CoreSet copy, he must remove the card from the game, and if this would make his deck go under 60 cards, I dont know...but disqualification seems so strict in this case and imho always should be only the last option.

galonso said:

~ Because with people walking into the registration 10 minutes before the start of the event, 100% deck checks are completely reasonable, possible and worth the effort. Random deck checks only go so far.

Since I will be the TO for Gencon, here's what would happen: As part of the announcements before the event starts, everyone will be reminded that the legal sets for LCG are Clash of Arms, Core Set, Time for Ravens, and the first 3 CPs form King's Landing. Part of that reminder is that old versions of cards that were modified when reprinted are not legal and would, at best, be considered proxies - which are not allowed in tournament play. So it's a good idea to check all your black-border cards now. The TO's ruling, should someone be "caught" with a proxy during a game, will be that the player has to produce the "non-proxy" immediately (read: within 5 minutes without leaving the card hall) or forfeit the game. Before the next round, they can either produce the "non-proxy" or remove the card (subject to a deck check) before the next round. If the non-proxy cannot be produced or removing the offending card(s) would bring them below the minimum 60 card deck size, they would be disqualified from the tournament. (There's no choice in that - no matter how you slice it, the deck is illegal and you can't play with an illegal deck.)

So, before the event begins, everyone will know about (or be reminded of) the issue and what the consequences will be if a TO becomes involved. And given adequate warning and time to avoid the issue. So that information will be available when you make your decision about what to do.

ktom said:

There ya go Ktom, killing the discussion. Lol.

I need to come up with some questions that aren't so easy for you to answer!

Dobbler said:

~ Well, you can always discuss whether or not you'd call over a TO in the first place, knowing the consequences. Or whether this semi-official stance is fair.

ktom said:

Regarding the deck checking, the staff can only do the best they can. I recommend setting a cut off time for deck registration (set well before 10 min before pairings) to allow for this. Ive used this practice running major tournaments and found it makes it alot easier.

Regarding the ruling, seems perfectly fair to me.

There also is a unofficial reprint list for the core set.

Ktom pretty much wrapped it up - but assume a non genCon setting, but still a fairly big tournament: i would let my opponent swap the card. If he didn't have it, i'd probably even let him play with it, and remind him of its actual text when/if it comes up. I would not expect a disqualification.

jmccarthy said:

amen.

I think this is the sportsmanship version, not looking at possible tournament rules which might tell us something else. However the whole switching of cards thing should not lead to a stalling of the game.

Stag Lord said:

Heck, even at something as big as ChiCON (and some ChiCONs have been bigger than some GenCons...) I'd allow the "proxy" - although I would require someone to disclose all proxies they are using to their opponent at the start of the game. "I've got a WES-House Tully Recruiter in here that's supposed to be the CS version." Simple as that. That's the price of the proxy.

GenCon is a different animal, though. All sorts of things I'd do in a local event, no matter how big, I won't do at GenCon. The biggest example that comes to mind is play. GenCon is the only event I have ever been TO for that I haven't played in (although who knows, if there's an odd number this year...).

Ah, I would go with D. Doesn't affect the game enough IMHO. Hell, I doubt I would even notice

I'm somewhat hijacking the thread to ask a question a vaguely related question rather than starting a new thread: Ktom, for GenCon do you intend to require players to reveal their cards in Shadows at game end to their opponents to verify that every card there is valid? I think that idea got kicked around in one the threads about Shadows cards and it seems like a good "house rule", even for casual gatherings.

So that would lead to what do you do if your opponent put a non shadows card into the shadows?

~<

Do you A: Call a TO.

B: Slap the opponent with a big smelly trout.

C: Since YOU ARE PLAYING LANNISTER and WON anyhow... just laugh at the pathetic attempt at cheating?

>

A more serious question: A habit of mine... and of a few other players is to rest your hand face down on the table. This I have found can lead to confusion on my own part as to my hand and my shadows cards... especially since I forget a lot... so while I hope this doesn't happen. What should be the established procedure to deal with this?

Granted... if enough space is given in a match. A designated shadows area, can mitigate this. I've also had the habit of having the cards at a 90 degree angle (or knelt) to keep them from being mixed up with my hand and even when a card falls off the top of a deck. And in limited playing space... I've thought of putting shadow cards in my unused plot deck (under it) since my plots use different sleeves. It's just varying issues that should be throught about.

bloodycelt said:

The Official Shadows rules "suggest" putting the cards in Shadows beneath your other cards in play (and thus closest to the owner). I would suggest doing just the opposite, and putting your cards in shadows at the top of your cards in play and farthest away from yourself. I think this would accomplish a couple things (at least for me):

1) Prevent mixing with cards in hand when I put them down, which I generally do at the bottom of my cards in play nearest me.

2) Remind me I have cards in Shadows. Anyone who has played with Shadows cards already has probably started into a particular phase and then realized after the fact that you wanted to bring a card out of shadows, but since you aren't looking at the card, it is easy to forget. This particular problem could also be resolved by forcing yourself to speak aloud at the beginning of each phase that there is an opportunity for shadows, but I like the idea of having the upside down cards more "front and center". But that is just me.

As for the case of a player putting a card in shadows that can't go into shadows, I can offhand only think of two benefits: lowering hand size for RBD, or enable the Shadows Agenda to allow you to get power for unoposed. Otherwise it is a dead card, one they can neither use from hand, nor bring out of shadows.

bloodycelt said:

~ B! B! B! Definetely.

About the more serious problem: Is ist really a problem? I think your are allowed to look at your cards in shadows at anytime of the game, since the same is true for your hand cards i fail to see the problem/ unsportmanlike behaviour here.

dobbler highlites two of the advantages you could can by putting a non-shadows card into shadows. Plus there is the winter agenda.

I think that at the end of the game you should have to validate that any cards left in the shadows area are indeed shadow crested.

Lars said:

I don't have a problem with players having to reveal Shadow cards at the end of the game. There are other cards that gain an advantage to having stuff in Shadows: Storm Dancer, new Catelyn, Tunnels of the REd Keep, Septa MOrdane, new Cersei, etc

Yes. As TO for GenCon, I would rule that all cards in Shadows at the end of the game must be revealed. If you have a card in Shadows that does not have the Shadows crest, you will forfeit the game, regardless of what the actual outcome was.

There are enough cards, and not only the Agenda, that benefit from having cards in Shadows that I can see the temptation to put a card that is not doing you much good into Shadows and just leaving it there. The "reveal at the end of the game" rule is a deterrent to that. I think 98% of the people playing this game don't need the deterrent, but there always seem to be bad apples. (Otherwise, these threads wouldn't be here.)