I was saying it shouldn't be up to the TO if one player does have official ones, that should be automatic.

I get your point but I'm not sure I agree.

I've seen some cardboard templates that are in pretty bad shape. Rounded corners, missing corners, bent or crooked, and so on. I'd guess FFG is leaving it up to the TO and the players so everyone can pick the best set, based on what everyone is using.

Good point.

Good point.

I think that FFG simply prefers to leave such things up to the discretion of the TO, we had a fairly lengthy discussion about what is stalling on the rules forum, because again FFG doesn't really say, just says that the TO can step in if it happens.

But they do nothing to define or even give guidelines on what stalling is. IMO this is most likely best, because it lets the TO make the call, and the person there who has all the info can most times make the best call.

I'd guess that FFG feels that it's far too easy for guidelines to become Rules, and then used to possibly try and tie the hands of a TO from making the best call.

Having firmer rules does nothing to really tie the hands of a TO, so long as you have the overarching rule that in the end the TO is the final arbiter during the event.

In many cases, and I'm speaking generally here, I feel the lack of firmer rules is exactly what hamstrings many TOs. They don't have a firm in print backing so in many cases this causes inaction because many TOs don't want to step on toes.

Like in regards to stalling, I agree that there shouldn't be a non negotiable limit placed that TOs must enforce, but the current wording is overly toothless. Simply saying stalling is illegal isn't enough because it doesn't define what constitutes stalling. By being more definitive without having to have an iron clad limit you more properly arm players and TOS alike. Expectations are clearly spelled out and TOs would likely feel more comfortable calling players on it.

Now with the upcoming judges program hopefully that type of thing will be exactly what does happen. But I would like to see FFG event rules elaborate on a number of things in order to provide more clear guidlines for players to follow and TOs to enforce.

A little history:

The 3rd party templates were not in the rules originally. A lot of us played with them in Minneapolis (AP is here, so is FFG). The FFG OP guys got to check them out at the 2013 Regional and really liked them, so they were added as officially supported in the next tournament update. Similarly once 3rd party tokens started to be offered, those got added to the tournament rules. Alex Davy often uses either a set of TC templates or an AP set I designed for him.

The earliest versions of the movement templates had the markings on them to help with side movement (so you could move a ship 2 or 3 around something else for example. No one at FFG has ever taken issue with this. I don't think it's ever occurred to anyone to really care. It's such a useless thing to try and measure with. It's the same thing as the base that's right there. It was never a cheating thing, just a utility thing.

What is really buzzing me, is just how could someone really take advantage of it? I mean really?

You can't put a maneuver template in front of your ship prior to his activation. So, the only time you can see the premeasured mark and get whatever information you can get out of it, is when you already commited to a maneuver and you're doing a straight or a k-turn.

When doing a straight, what good is it to know exactly where a 1,2, 3 or 4 would have land you? There is no reverse in the game, you can only go forward. So what possible information can you get out of it? Don't live in the past.

So it really leaves us with the k-turn and if you decide to do a straight next turn. I guess you would know exactly where you will land by doing a 1,2,3 or 4 straight. That is assuming that no other ship will block you and that you are in fact doing a straight after your k-turn. And let's be honest here, unless you're the kind of player to take a deep breath before moving your ship from one end of the templates to the other, you still have to memorize the exact spot in miliseconds. Now, if you have a memory good enough to memorize exactly where you'll land next turn by doing the straight of your choice, I think it's safe to assume that you already know by now where you will land without even looking at the templates: 1 base equal 1 straight, it's not that hard people.

So really, what advantage can the player really take out of it? Enlighten me here, because quite frankly, I have those templates and been playing with them for a while, and I just can't see what kind of information I can get that I don't already know.

Having firmer rules does nothing to really tie the hands of a TO

No, but a player can try and make that argument. So it is IMO better to leave it in the hands of the TO completely. I've just seen too much rules lawyering to not expect someone to try and push it with something like that.

I'd have no doubt we'd see someone use a stopwatch app and call for the TO each time the other person went past what ever guideline the tournament PDF stated.

So really, what advantage can the player really take out of it?

The only advantage you can get would be doing a straight or K-Turn one turn and knowing where a K-Turn or straight would take you next turn. Which as you said isn't really all that useful because other ships have moved, and it's not that hard to figure out where you will be anyway. Anyone who can't drop a ship with in a fraction of an inch at the right spot, has bigger issues and any advantage they get will be negated by their inability to see distances.

Honestly there's like 2 people here who have any issue with it at all, and as Hexis points out, neither of those people are Alex or Frank.

I feel I was quite explicit that firmer guidlines, as far as the stalling example go, do not have to constitute an absolute limit. You can absolutely retain TO privilege in the matter while also providing the TO and players much more clear guidlines on the matter. None of which would require putting a definitive number out for which players to time as you've suggested they would. Moreover lack of clear guidlines also allows players to rule lawyer as you've put, just in the inverse.

For instance in recent ettiquite threads we've had a number of players state that they feel completely warrented in stepping away from the game to use the restroom mid round. To you and I that seems ridiculous, but more then one poster took that stance. More recently another thread brought up the concept of stalling despite no round timer being present. In many cases prior playing defensively as been called stalling by posters. Now some of those examples are of course more grey area then others, but they are all created by the lack of specificity in the event rules.

Collusion is another aspect that is not effectively illustrated in the X-wing events rules, though other FFG games have much lengthier sections on it.

Providing a real description of what would or would not constitute stalling or collusion or legal components; won't usurp TO authority provided they are properly worded. Instead everyone will be more clear on what expectations are, which will allow TOs more effectively deal with issues as they can cite more from the event document then just an overly broad mandate

A little history:

The 3rd party templates were not in the rules originally. A lot of us played with them in Minneapolis (AP is here, so is FFG). The FFG OP guys got to check them out at the 2013 Regional and really liked them, so they were added as officially supported in the next tournament update. Similarly once 3rd party tokens started to be offered, those got added to the tournament rules. Alex Davy often uses either a set of TC templates or an AP set I designed for him.

The earliest versions of the movement templates had the markings on them to help with side movement (so you could move a ship 2 or 3 around something else for example. No one at FFG has ever taken issue with this. I don't think it's ever occurred to anyone to really care. It's such a useless thing to try and measure with. It's the same thing as the base that's right there. It was never a cheating thing, just a utility thing. (bold added by SSC)

^This. I JUST learned about how to do this last week from a veteran player. Extremely useful and much cleaner than marking off and removing ships to fly through them.

Since I don't play tournaments, I don't expect it would ever be an issue for me, but even if a casual player had problem with them I'd certainly use their straights. Though, to mirror some other comments here, I have seen some truly banged-up templates out there. Awesome because I'm glad they've seen that much use, but I must say that tinkering with my cardboard templates now, the feel and crispness of acrylics is something I don't think I'd be able to turn my back on.

The tournement rules are clear. If a player objects to the use of his opponenets range ruler and/or set of maneuver templates BEFORE THE MATCH BEGINS, then the two must agree on a single set to use between them with the default being the range ruler and/or set of maneuver templates from the core set.

In other words, if you are one of the three people in the world of xwing that have a problem with Cog maneuver templates... speak up before each match and ask your oppenent if he/she uses them so you can voice your contention and get things cleared up prior to the start of the match.

If my opponent was going to make a big deal about this after the match and a TO was called over, I would point out to the TO that this issue was to be brought up prior to the match (as the Tournement Rules read). THEN I would go with whatever the TO decided as, quite frankly, I'd rather move on.

This entire thread is the epitome of making a mountain out of a mole hill and it is the exact opposite end of the "fly casual" motto of this community.

Truthfully, if my opponent called out my maneuver templates prior to the match, the very first thing going through my head will not be "oh, this guy has a legitamate beef." What actually will be going through my head is, "oh, this guy is attempting to knock me off my mental game before this match even begins. Now that I know the type of player he is, I need to crush him as quickly as possible so that I can have fun in the next match, because it's obvious that FUN is not going to a part of this match."

I feel I was quite explicit that firmer guidlines, as far as the stalling example go, do not have to constitute an absolute limit.

And that won't stop someone from attempting to use them as such. I don't care how carefully FFG spells it out, how many times and in how many ways they say they are simply guidelines and the TO has the final say.

People will attempt to use them as hard and fast rules to gain an advantage. There is just no way around it. Even if the person doesn't have a leg to stand on, they will still make the attempt.

The only advantage you can get...

But there is an advantage. Why should any templates that give an advantage be used? Does it matter how small the advantage is?

I feel I was quite explicit that firmer guidlines, as far as the stalling example go, do not have to constitute an absolute limit.

And that won't stop someone from attempting to use them as such. I don't care how carefully FFG spells it out, how many times and in how many ways they say they are simply guidelines and the TO has the final say.People will attempt to use them as hard and fast rules to gain an advantage. There is just no way around it. Even if the person doesn't have a leg to stand on, they will still make the attempt.

This already takes place despite (or because of) the lack of any definitive guidlines, as I illustrated in a number of recent examples from this board.

So if it occurs with or without better guidlines then it doesn't constitute a valid reason to not have the guidlines in place, because it will happen without them.

If you'd like to continue the discussion PM me as to not overly derail the thread.

Does it matter how small the advantage is?

When the advantage is shared by both sides, and so small to be effectively meaningless. Then yes it does, in fact I'm not sure you can even call it an advantage at that point.

Does it matter how small the advantage is?

When the advantage is shared by both sides, and so small to be effectively meaningless. Then yes it does, in fact I'm not sure you can even call it an advantage at that point.

I dunno, I have sympathy for Rapture's perspective here. The importance of the advantage is in the eyes of the beholder. Effectively what we have here is a ruling that you're free to mark up your templates, and everyone should be aware of that. Personally I'd rather no templates have additional marks, just so there's no doubt, no debate, everyone's using the same tools. And I speak as someone who doesn't see this particular case as a significant matter, but the principle still stands.

Who are Frank and Alex?

The importance of the advantage is in the eyes of the beholder.

Yes and no. There is an objective measurement of advantage that isn't up for debate. But there are also rules to deal with this already in place. So if someone feels that the range markings are that big of a deal they have a recourse.

Effectively what we have here is a ruling that you're free to mark up your templates, and everyone should be aware of that.

You're right, that's effectively what we have, but again there is a resource if you don't like someone's templates...

Who are Frank and Alex?

The two head designers for X-Wing, they've been in charge of X-Wing since about wave 3 I think. They're the ones who write the rules, come up with upgrades, design ships, ect... So if they're ok with notches on the templates, then that means FFG is officially ok with it, and there isn't likely to be any change.

The only advantage you can get...

But there is an advantage. Why should any templates that give an advantage be used? Does it matter how small the advantage is?

Getting an advantage with accessories is pretty common in many competitive discipline so, it's not because something gives an edge that it should automatically be banned.

Now, again, like Vanor said and I tried to explain earlier, the advantage it could possibly gives is so small and trivial that I'm not sure it even qualifies as an advantage. We're talking about knowing where you'll be by doing a straight after a k-turn. A straight. Any decent player already know without any help. Guessing the straight is one of the most basic and easy thing to learn when you begin investing in the game. If you can't even do that, you won't get far in a tournament.

Can you really say without laughing that it is a serious advantage that we should be worry about?

And IF you do consider it a real problem that might lose you the game, there is a rule that allow you to share your own unmarked templates.

So, what's the problem again?

Who are Frank and Alex?

The two head designers for X-Wing, they've been in charge of X-Wing since about wave 3 I think. They're the ones who write the rules, come up with upgrades, design ships, ect... So if they're ok with notches on the templates, then that means FFG is officially ok with it, and there isn't likely to be any change.

Ah yes, I've seen interviews with them i think. It's funny, they looked too young to be fans of X-wing and TIE-Fighter to me!

So hey, they're the ones who've decided exactly what the special rules for the ARC-170's rear arc are going to be in Wave VII?

there is a rule that allow you to share your own unmarked templates.

Also as I pointed out here or elsewhere... with 2 or 3 threads on this subject it's hard keep straight... It's fairly easy to mark the cardboard templates to do the same thing. In fact I could mark them in such a way that only I'd be able to pick out the mark.

So hey, they're the ones who've decided exactly what the special rules for the ARC-170's rear arc are going to be in Wave VII?

Most likely Although I'm not sure if Alex will be there for Wave 7 or not. He's involved in Armada, and I'm not sure if he's just splitting his time or moving on to that game full time or what.

Although I'm not sure if Alex will be there for Wave 7 or not. He's involved in Armada, and I'm not sure if he's just splitting his time or moving on to that game full time or what.

Ah, so he may be busy on the Droid Control Ship?

Just kidding, by the way, even I don't want one of those!